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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: pwalsh on July 23, 2011, 03:18:13 PM
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Here’s a couple of questions for all of you garment screen-printers. Suppose that you had a business relationship with a company that had developed a very successful line of pre-print design tee shirts that they sold to the market through a series of wholesalers. Now suppose that this particular pre-print line forms the core of the company’s success as a manufacturer in our industry until….
Along comes another company that produces an almost exact copy of the first companies original design, and then uses a low price strategy to entice the wholesalers to switch suppliers by offering then “seemingly-identical” designs at prices that are 30% - 50% lower than the company who produced the garment with the original design.
The knock-off companies policy is that this approach would allow the wholesalers to make additional profit, and/or allow the people actually buying the shirts to get them at a cheaper price than they could from the company that produced the original designs.
( A ) Would you think that this was OK because the wholesaler was making more profit and/or the end-user was getting a less expensive product? Yes / No
( B ) Would you think that legal action should be taken against the company that printed the knock-off shirts and the wholesaler that brought them to market? Yes / No
( C ) Would your answers be the same if the action of introducing a knock-off of an original design was being perpetrated by a screen-printing equipment manufacturer and their sales and service division Yes / No
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hey, if I can get is cheaper...great!!
Just kidding. The problem I have with knock-offs is quality & service. Even reverse engineered products are usually not as good as the original. Also, the cheaper products usually come with a worse warranty, and a much smaller service department. Downtime is a common thing no matter what brand equipment you use. But length of downtime is the difference.
You get what you pay for.
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Awesome topic, I bet some people are blowing a gasket right now over it.
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Awesome topic, I bet some people are blowing a gasket right now over it.
I know one guy who is probably blowing the importer and service guy and giddy with the thrill of a ruckus over here that will be copied and posted on the two other forums that profit from these sales and promotions.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Roflcopter.gif)
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I don't think it is a simple yes or no answer with the information you gave. Is the original copywrite, trademark or patented? Whats is morally right to some might not be to others but what is legal and not applies to all.
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Sweet Jesus! Here we go again!
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Here’s a couple of questions for all of you garment screen-printers. Suppose that you had a business relationship with a company that had developed a very successful line of pre-print design tee shirts that they sold to the market through a series of wholesalers. Now suppose that this particular pre-print line forms the core of the company’s success as a manufacturer in our industry until….
Along comes another company that produces an almost exact copy of the first companies original design, and then uses a low price strategy to entice the wholesalers to switch suppliers by offering then “seemingly-identical” designs at prices that are 30% - 50% lower than the company who produced the garment with the original design.
The knock-off companies policy is that this approach would allow the wholesalers to make additional profit, and/or allow the people actually buying the shirts to get them at a cheaper price than they could from the company that produced the original designs.
( A ) Would you think that this was OK because the wholesaler was making more profit and/or the end-user was getting a less expensive product? Yes / No
( B ) Would you think that legal action should be taken against the company that printed the knock-off shirts and the wholesaler that brought them to market? Yes / No
( C ) Would your answers be the same if the action of introducing a knock-off of an original design was being perpetrated by a screen-printing equipment manufacturer and their sales and service division Yes / No
You have posts after posts, hell you have pictures of them building the blue dragon right next to a f'ing M&R. Not only do you sue him once he sells one, you throw them all in Prison. You have enough proof from the dumb ass to have them serve time. There are many cases out there were people knowingly sold ripp offs and went to prison. You need to contact the authorities as soon as he sells one. I'm sure rich print of all the post and pictures of them coping your machine. You won't be able to touch the folks in China though.
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Could this have anything to do with a Mustang?
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Could this have anything to do with a Mustang?
No.
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A - NO
B - YES
C - YES
And yes, there are gaskets being blown.
When China was given "most favored nation status" and the GATT/WTO free-trade sold out the US workforce, didn't they include patent protections anywhere in the trade deals?
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I think a lot more details would have to be given in this scenario for me to really take a hard stance, but my stance right now would be:
A) Wholesalers making more profit and end users getting a less expensive product isn't a bad thing...but
B) Depends on the "but" above
C) Same
Like I said, I think there are more details needed (how close these 2 products are, is there an obvious effort to make the knock-off better?) but I think the most important thing for me to decide on whether it was right or wrong is MOTIVE of the knock-off company.
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hmm.. I don't exactly have an answer to peters question but here is what I think. I like M&R, rich and the boys take good care of us and we have a shop full of M&R stuff. With that said, let's look at this logically without feelings.
The chinese press shouldn't be able to have anything on it that M&R has patents on. Patents DO run out though look at Stretch Devices. The idea of the roller frame is no longer just theirs. The patent ran out, now others are able to make roller type frames.
Don has since made improvements on his original designs and those are patented. But if you want, you can buy a sefar roller frame.
Dons frames are made in the USA. The Sefars are made in China.. Guess what. The sefar frames suck.
Same deal with the Fender Stratocaster. The patent ended and now a hundred different companies make guitars that look like Strats. Has this hurt fenders business.. sure. But people still want to buy $1000.00 fender strats and will pass over the $200 pieces of crap all day long.
So can M&R do anything about the Chinese control box looking the same as the Sportsman.. probably not... Unless they have a TM or a patent on it.
Think about this.. any ass can put ink on a t-shirt and under cut your prices. So why should people come to you as a print shop? Hopefully because of service and print quality.
Does it suck when you lose some sales because of this. You bet! Can i do anything about it. Nope. Just keep my eyes on the prize and keep up our quality and service.
As long as the Chinese don't infringe on any patents i don't know M&R can do anything other than what they have been doing. Quality, reliable machines with great service. M&R will be just fine.
I don't think Peter is actually asking us if Nazdar should carry the Chinese stuff or not. That would be nuts.
Personally I don't think Rich and M&R should sweat the Chinese stuff.
-Jamie
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hmm.. I don't exactly have an answer to peters question but here is what I think. I like M&R, rich and the boys take good care of us and we have a shop full of M&R stuff. With that said, let's look at this logically without feelings.
The chinese press shouldn't be able to have anything on it that M&R has patents on. Patents DO run out though look at Stretch Devices. The idea of the roller frame is no longer just theirs. The patent ran out, now others are able to make roller type frames.
Don has since made improvements on his original designs and those are patented. But if you want, you can buy a sefar roller frame.
Dons frames are made in the USA. The Sefars are made in China.. Guess what. The sefar frames suck.
Same deal with the Fender Stratocaster. The patent ended and now a hundred different companies make guitars that look like Strats. Has this hurt fenders business.. sure. But people still want to buy $1000.00 fender strats and will pass over the $200 pieces of crap all day long.
So can M&R do anything about the Chinese control box looking the same as the Sportsman.. probably not... Unless they have a TM or a patent on it.
Think about this.. any ink bucket can put ink on a t-shirt and under cut your prices. So why should people come to you as a print shop? Hopefully because of service and print quality.
Does it suck when you lose some sales because of this. You bet! Can i do anything about it. Nope. Just keep my eyes on the prize and keep up our quality and service.
As long as the Chinese don't infringe on any patents i don't know M&R can do anything other than what they have been doing. Quality, reliable machines with great service. M&R will be just fine.
I don't think Peter is actually asking us if Nazdar should carry the Chinese stuff or not. That would be nuts.
Personally I don't think Rich and M&R should sweat the Chinese stuff.
-Jamie
I agree.
Besides the only reason to worry about a China press is if the pest wasn't behind it at all. The fact it is the pest behind it actually brings no real reason to worry about it as far as market share goes or anything like that. NOTHING he has done has taken any HUGE bite out of M&R or anyone else for that matter.
M&R Possibly suing someone who IS breaking the law with patents or otherwise, I see no issue with.
Besides he put some rough pricing on DS when he first started talking about it, it wasn't that great anyway.
Is everything that's made in China crap? Nah not everything. But I know this much, EVERYTHING that is made over there is suspect until proven. I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole even if it was HALF PRICE of a M&R.
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The Sefar roller frames mentioned are a prime example. I've got 6. One bolt or the socket it screws into has stripped. Other sockets were too shallow, either from insufficient tapping or from flash from the casting clogging them up. Had to put washers under the bolts, which then can interfere with the adjacent bolt.
Savings? The price of the Sefar frames are only a couple of bucks cheaper than a Newman. I've got some 40 Newmans and I've never had a failure from any of them, either old blue ones or the dozen new ones I've bought.
Suspect until proven is some sage advice, GD.
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The Sefar roller frames mentioned are a prime example. I've got 6. One bolt or the socket it screws into has stripped. Other sockets were too shallow, either from insufficient tapping or from flash from the casting clogging them up. Had to put washers under the bolts, which then can interfere with the adjacent bolt.
Savings? The price of the Sefar frames are only a couple of bucks cheaper than a Newman. I've got some 40 Newmans and I've never had a failure from any of them, either old blue ones or the dozen new ones I've bought.
Suspect until proven is some sage advice, GD.
The newer Newmans are junk ( I stripped out 2 of them) and you can add Chase Diamond to the crappy roller frame list too, the actual bolts snap off and are a pain the butt to get flat.
The old heavy blues are the best!
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I've got 6 old Diamond Chase frames I've had for 9 years and have worked well enough. I don't think the threaded ends will sustain 40 ft/lbs of torque, but mine have held up so far. I was gonna sell them but I've got enough 86 mesh laying around to stretch them and I'm gonna use them for plastisol number transfers.
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I've got 6 old Diamond Chase frames I've had for 9 years and have worked well enough. I don't think the threaded ends will sustain 40 ft/lbs of torque, but mine have held up so far. I was gonna sell them but I've got enough 86 mesh laying around to stretch them and I'm gonna use them for plastisol number transfers.
My issue with Chase frames is it takes so much longer to install your mesh with those dang rods, then you have to flatten the frame but when I'm trying to get the raised corner to come down the whole dang bar turns due to lack of being able to apply a decient torque for fear of breaking something. If the screen happens to snap after all that work I say screw it and toss in the "deal with it later pile" before I lose my mind lol. Chase frames take a toll on my sanity and my already short temper. I have yet for the life of me been able to streach 305 mesh in any Chase frame. Great for 86 mesh though! I have a few of those for glitter inks.
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I've got issues stretching just about any mesh on rollers consistently and successfully without blowing out half the bolt mesh trying to get them up to the tension I want. All I use now is ShurLoc panels.
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Fujian Sanheng partner in USA - Interview with Mr. Robert Barnes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW8oqiQ98b4#)
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So, let's say there are no patent infringements, or if there are, they are paying royalties to the patent owners. That changes the game entirely.
Most presses nowadays are very similar to each other. I've seen roughly the same parts on nearly every new press out there. Heck, most presses progress at the same time, just like car manufacturers. Chrysler started the minivan craze, then everybody moved to SUV's and now everybody likes crossovers. They all perform the same basic functions and the engineering is all very similar.
Once again, it could be built better than every press out there, but if there isn't a service network or a network for the proprietary parts, then it won't make it, pure and simple.
Let's face it, every manufacturer has been knocking off M&R since the 80's. How many presses come with "M&R style platens?"
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At the end of the day you get what you pay for. They have to cut cost somewhere to make it that cheap and it is not all in the cost of labor. There will be buyers of these for sure. I have friends that swear by Harbor Freight tools even thought they replace and break them all the time. They never think about the fact that all the time they wasted going to the store they could have bought a quality tool instead and still been time and been money ahead. Even if that guys was not selling them I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.
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I was just on a homebrew website and someone was bitching about the quality of a propane burner stand that was made out of "chineseium" which seems an apt description of a lot of the crap that comes from there. Harbor Freight – you know going in what to expect, and I only buy stuff there I don't expect good service life out of, but that I won't be using much anyway.
Now last fall I finally tore up the bearings of a $60 Skil saw, and decided I wanted a left-bladed replacement like a Porter-Cable. You can get them for around $90, so I was looking on eBay and Amazon, and there was an auction for a Skil Left-Bladed Worm Drive Saw for $87, new in the box, that sells in Lowes for $140 or so. I won the auction at that price, and it was exactly as described. Heavy as hell, but it'll saw through anything. Also made (or assembled) in China now, but seems nicely built. Should be the last one I f_ck up I mean wear out.
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its all business. hey it may be the new "toyota" of screen printing machines and m/r the american made solid CHEVROLET. Lets give it a chance, i doubt they have STOLEN anything but ideas.i love this industry and its changin again.
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Like anything new you would want to wait until it has been proven to be a good product. Let's face it, almost EVERYTHING is made is China these days, like it or not.
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Surely the machine doesn't infringe on any patents, but if it does, there is pecedent set with Tajima versus Feiya. It's not legal precedent in the way we usually think of it, but it's persuasive at least. These two scenarios seem to parallel each other to a great degree, assuming the china sporty is as much of a copy as some might suspect.
http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html (http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html)
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One other observation I've noticed here and on "another" forum is likening this new knockoff to the original as comparable to a Toyota vs. a Chevy, or any other domestic car. I think it's safe to say there's a hell of a lot of difference between most Japanese products and Chinese products in most instances. This isn't 1955 when "Made in Japan" meant junk.
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The newer Newmans are junk ( I stripped out 2 of them) and you can add Chase Diamond to the crappy roller frame list too, the actual bolts snap off and are a pain the butt to get flat.
The old heavy blues are the best!
I have about 80 of the new M3UL and they have been good for me. Call george i'm sure he'll get you sorted.
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Surely the machine doesn't infringe on any patents, but if it does, there is pecedent set with Tajima versus Feiya. It's not legal precedent in the way we usually think of it, but it's persuasive at least. These two scenarios seem to parallel each other to a great degree, assuming the china sporty is as much of a copy as some might suspect.
[url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url] ([url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url])
What are everyone's thoughts on this? Do the two scenarios seem similar or am I reading something into this that isn't really there. I personally think they are almost carbon copy scenarios, one being an embroidery machine, the other being a screen printing machine. I guess more needs to be known about the Chinese press and if it infringes on anything, but from the outside, it sure looks like it does. I'll go ahead and give the benefit of the doubt though and maybe the China Sporty only looks similar to the Sportsman.
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Surely the machine doesn't infringe on any patents, but if it does, there is pecedent set with Tajima versus Feiya. It's not legal precedent in the way we usually think of it, but it's persuasive at least. These two scenarios seem to parallel each other to a great degree, assuming the china sporty is as much of a copy as some might suspect.
[url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url] ([url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url])
What are everyone's thoughts on this? Do the two scenarios seem similar or am I reading something into this that isn't really there. I personally think they are almost carbon copy scenarios, one being an embroidery machine, the other being a screen printing machine. I guess more needs to be known about the Chinese press and if it infringes on anything, but from the outside, it sure looks like it does. I'll go ahead and give the benefit of the doubt though and maybe the China Sporty only looks similar to the Sportsman.
The real issue is that Robert made the statement many many times that it is a complete knock off even went into details many times on how the Chinese bought the Sportsman to be reverse engineered. When it comes to a court of law those statements which I am sure are saved somewhere by someone can be very damaging.
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I thought there were photos of the Sportsman that they bought to model it after as well. He also likes to use the word clone and has in several post. Admitting that it is a clone cant be good either. If someone is willing to business with him and buy one of these they should expect to get what they pay for. The only thing it does have going for it is that it was modeled after something that is a great machine to begin with.
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Surely the machine doesn't infringe on any patents, but if it does, there is pecedent set with Tajima versus Feiya. It's not legal precedent in the way we usually think of it, but it's persuasive at least. These two scenarios seem to parallel each other to a great degree, assuming the china sporty is as much of a copy as some might suspect.
[url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url] ([url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url])
What are everyone's thoughts on this? Do the two scenarios seem similar or am I reading something into this that isn't really there. I personally think they are almost carbon copy scenarios, one being an embroidery machine, the other being a screen printing machine. I guess more needs to be known about the Chinese press and if it infringes on anything, but from the outside, it sure looks like it does. I'll go ahead and give the benefit of the doubt though and maybe the China Sporty only looks similar to the Sportsman.
Before you go too far into the area of patent infringement, perhaps some other person of the “older persuasion” could give a run down on what happened with the first rotary automatics and who had the controlling patent and who ended up on each end of the debacle.
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Isn't some of this about like a million monkeys with typewriters?
With that said, would you ever buy a Sorny TV? Or Reebock shoes?
Especially if it's something integral to your business?
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Surely the machine doesn't infringe on any patents, but if it does, there is pecedent set with Tajima versus Feiya. It's not legal precedent in the way we usually think of it, but it's persuasive at least. These two scenarios seem to parallel each other to a great degree, assuming the china sporty is as much of a copy as some might suspect.
[url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url] ([url]http://www.tajima.com/articles/details/03/14/index.html[/url])
What are everyone's thoughts on this? Do the two scenarios seem similar or am I reading something into this that isn't really there. I personally think they are almost carbon copy scenarios, one being an embroidery machine, the other being a screen printing machine. I guess more needs to be known about the Chinese press and if it infringes on anything, but from the outside, it sure looks like it does. I'll go ahead and give the benefit of the doubt though and maybe the China Sporty only looks similar to the Sportsman.
Before you go too far into the area of patent infringement, perhaps some other person of the “older persuasion” could give a run down on what happened with the first rotary automatics and who had the controlling patent and who ended up on each end of the debacle.
I'm certainly not following you on that one Douglas.