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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ebscreen on October 21, 2013, 03:50:29 PM
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Trying to justify fitting a new massive press in our shop, and have come to the conclusion
that a narrower dryer (48" belt vs the 72" we have now) with a longer length in both
infeed and heat (currently 5' in and 10' heat, going to 8' in and 16' heat) will fit much better.
Anyone have any insight? Obviously you can fit more side by side on a wider belt, but my thinking
is that with a longer tunnel we should be able to run the belt much faster. Is it a linear thing?
IE twice as long tunnel = twice as fast?
Is a wider belt and shorter tunnel more efficient gas wise?
Anyone run two presses on a 48" belt?
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Check the production rating (pieces per hour) for the two dryers. I would not be comfortable running two auto presses on a 48" belt
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Efficiency I'm not sure on with the dryer but yes, a dryer heat chamber with 2x the length as your original would mean 2x as fast belt speed would equate to the same amount of dwell time.
I believe there is more to maintain with the extra long heat chambers, not sure what else is different.
With going from 10' heat to 16' heat that would mean you can speed the belt up 60% from where it is now for the same dwell time.
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My 2 cents sez having a longer belt will not mean faster belt speed, a 72" wide belt will have the same production and can handle two auto's , having extra length is good for loading and cooling of the T-shirts for stacking.
Darryl
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And a 48" belt is ~%60 the width of a 72", so almost an even trade there.
The main issues would be garment size on the belt, which of course comes down to print size.
Lot of variables on that one.
Thanks for the input so far.
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The main issues would be garment size on the belt, which of course comes down to print size.
Reckon that monster press has a large image area too. Capacity changes a lot when you go to bigger prints. Also watch out for most capacity ratings for wb, they use a 1-1.5 minute dwell which is certainly doable with the right ink/print but too short a dwell for my taste.
So, uh, does this mean you're selling the 72" belt? I know I guy that might want to purchase it, *wink wink*.
We're getting close to deciding on new dryer right now and I'm going through a similar game of second guessing myself. My gut (and some actual math) says we need a min 60" belt with 12' of chamber, upgradable to at least 16' and we're just one auto, one manual and a "slow" auto at that.
I'm not sure I would feel comfortable with 2 autos on a 48", our 48" texair gets pretty damn cramped just with our humble setup. Then again if it's going to cramp your new press...pick the lesser of the two bad things I suppose.
Btw, there is a really freaking long chambered sprint 2000 with a 48" belt on ebay right now I think.
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Something tells me it's not quite a linear relationship when it comes to width and heat chamber length. The shirts being in the chamber longer does lead to faster belt speeds but with plastisol the temp of the ink film determines whether it's cured or not, time in the chamber helps that, but I think it's more complicated than we think. I could be wrong, but just messing around with the donut probe and our dryer I've noticed a lot of nuances and things that make me question the whole curing process and whether or not it's a linear relationship and can be easily calculated or if it's more complicated than that. Lowering the temp and slowing belt speed down accordingly didn't give me the numbers I expected to see, that's why I'm questioning this.
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We ran two autos on a 38" belt for a couple of years at high production so 48" would not be a problem. And 60% reduction in with x 60% extra length does not really equate because you are not using every inch of the belt. I would prefer more length than width in this case.
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Something tells me it's not quite a linear relationship when it comes to width and heat chamber length. The shirts being in the chamber longer does lead to faster belt speeds but with plastisol the temp of the ink film determines whether it's cured or not, time in the chamber helps that, but I think it's more complicated than we think. I could be wrong, but just messing around with the donut probe and our dryer I've noticed a lot of nuances and things that make me question the whole curing process and whether or not it's a linear relationship and can be easily calculated or if it's more complicated than that. Lowering the temp and slowing belt speed down accordingly didn't give me the numbers I expected to see, that's why I'm questioning this.
Exactly. I know it's not an A + B situation, that would be too easy! I'd assume that's why M&R (wisely) doesn't have piece/hr numbers
like other manufacturers do.
Really it comes down to print size and how much you're willing to fold up a shirt before you put it on the belt. If I wanted full bore
no problems with everything we do (oversize discharge on two presses) we'd likely need 72" belt and 20 feet of heat or more.
But realistically, that doesn't happen too often, I can typically schedule around it at least.
Do most dryers need access to both sides of the actual dryer? If I could put it against the wall it would give me more usable space.
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with just 1 auto and a manual. we fill up our 48" dryer no problem. depending on the job, we have to slow our dwell on the auto down so that we dont fill it up. now we also have an older harco electric dryer with 14' in-feed and 10' of heat. i havent researched newer dryers too much, but im sure a gas dryer would be able to be sped up or at least run a little quicker. when we do get a new dryer, i would love to stick to 48" because of space issues though.
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I'd assume that's why M&R (wisely) doesn't have piece/hr numbers
like other manufacturers do.
Do most dryers need access to both sides of the actual dryer? If I could put it against the wall it would give me more usable space.
M&R does advertise pieces/hr. they also have a nifty little diagram on how many you can fit in per dryer configuration depending how they are laid out(sideways, folded, side by side, ect.).
All the gas dryers I have looked at seem to have at least 1 thing that you would want to get to on each side, wither it is grease nipples or what have you.
Wouldn't it be kinda hard to load two autos on a dryer if it were against a wall? Or do you just envision having a LONG in-feed?
We were at this same cross roads a few months ago, and decided longer than wider....
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I'd assume that's why M&R (wisely) doesn't have piece/hr numbers
like other manufacturers do.
Do most dryers need access to both sides of the actual dryer? If I could put it against the wall it would give me more usable space.
M&R does advertise pieces/hr. they also have a nifty little diagram on how many you can fit in per dryer configuration depending how they are laid out(sideways, folded, side by side, ect.).
All the gas dryers I have looked at seem to have at least 1 thing that you would want to get to on each side, wither it is grease nipples or what have you.
Wouldn't it be kinda hard to load two autos on a dryer if it were against a wall? Or do you just envision having a LONG in-feed?
We were at this same cross roads a few months ago, and decided longer than wider....
A gas dryer cannot be installed against the wall according to AGA/CGA standards. There is a specific space requirement for placement near walls. The manufacturer who you chose to supply your dryer should give you this information.
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Got it, didn't even think about code for it, more of a is it even possible kind of deal.
Hadn't seen piece per hour information on M&R's site, I did see the little folding diagram
though.
Stupid odd shaped building. In my last shops the ink and screen rooms (area's, really)
were more of an afterthought, with floor space being all but dedicated to production.
This time we built out large rooms, ink finally being contained in it's own little dungeon
(Sartorius should arrive today!) and floor space being allotted to the two presses I had
currently, thinking that was it and I'm done with growth. Doh.
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for what it's worth, we run a single auto (MHM 12/10) on our 72", and it's full. I can't really see running a second auto on it... but if you can pull that off, then it's a good idea. (what's that commercial say? It's only weird if it doesn't work)
Steve
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How much heat Steve?
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for what it's worth, we run a single auto (MHM 12/10) on our 72", and it's full. I can't really see running a second auto on it... but if you can pull that off, then it's a good idea. (what's that commercial say? It's only weird if it doesn't work)
Steve
What dryer and chamber length?
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for what it's worth, we run a single auto (MHM 12/10) on our 72", and it's full. I can't really see running a second auto on it... but if you can pull that off, then it's a good idea. (what's that commercial say? It's only weird if it doesn't work)
Steve
What dryer and chamber length?
Was wondering the same thing myself, seems like a 72" should handle 2 autos easy let alone 1.
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Perhaps they are doing a 3 min dwell time or something...We do just under 1.5 min for discharge...
38sec-45sec for plastisol depending on substrate
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It all depends on the settings I guess. With our settings at 350 and 15'/min, we barely get the shirts up to 320, but we have ours set at 380 and 22'/min belt speed with a 12' chamber, 60" belt and it will handle two autos rather easily and the donut probe says 320. I bet we could crank the belt speed up to at least 25'/min if we raised the temp to 400-410 and then we could lay shirts flat, without folding while running the auto at 1000/hr, using only one side of the belt. If we get a second auto, we will change where we load the belt from the end to the side and if you fold the shirt by 1/3 then two will fit on each side. Only issue I see is if we were running both autos with a 20" print at 800+/hr. Other than that scenario I think we could run two autos full speed with no issues.
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Standards!
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Exactly. And what if you're running discharge on one side and LC plastisol on the other? This is stuff we face every day.
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for what it's worth, we run a single auto (MHM 12/10) on our 72", and it's full. I can't really see running a second auto on it... but if you can pull that off, then it's a good idea. (what's that commercial say? It's only weird if it doesn't work)
Steve
What dryer and chamber length?
Old Advance Tex-Air, 10 feet of heat (infra-red on the ends and gas in the middle). One operator alone, around 400 per hour, does not fill the belt, but add a shirt puller, and it's closer to 600 per hour (plus) and the belt is mostly full. In the shop I started in, we had an auto and a manual sharing a 72", and it worked out, but again, they were usually using one operator loading and unloading the auto. For us, there wouldn't be room to put two autos next to each other due to the construction of this 100 year old mill building (support beams every 8 x 20 feet) The panels run at 1080° (that's internal) and the gas around 350° plus... this for us is the best speed without scorching light shirts.
Steve
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Shoot I'd be root to poot if I could get a 48 wide belt in here and nope not a Vastex, something about those dryers make me feel uneasy, but I,m sure those shorty jokers work...anybody using one Pros & Cons
Darryl
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Exactly. And what if you're running discharge on one side and LC plastisol on the other? This is stuff we face every day.
Yeah, for all my wizardry in scheduling we occasionally hit that wall. Which brings up another interesting thought,
one dryer per press. Probably ideal if space allows, but we print so much discharge they'd both have to be big gas dryers.
Or I'd have to get better at scheduling and somehow limit one press to ink type. Ugh.
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Or how about a split belt?
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for what it's worth, we run a single auto (MHM 12/10) on our 72", and it's full. I can't really see running a second auto on it... but if you can pull that off, then it's a good idea. (what's that commercial say? It's only weird if it doesn't work)
Steve
What dryer and chamber length?
Old Advance Tex-Air, 10 feet of heat (infra-red on the ends and gas in the middle). One operator alone, around 400 per hour, does not fill the belt, but add a shirt puller, and it's closer to 600 per hour (plus) and the belt is mostly full. In the shop I started in, we had an auto and a manual sharing a 72", and it worked out, but again, they were usually using one operator loading and unloading the auto. For us, there wouldn't be room to put two autos next to each other due to the construction of this 100 year old mill building (support beams every 8 x 20 feet) The panels run at 1080° (that's internal) and the gas around 350° plus... this for us is the best speed without scorching light shirts.
Steve
We had one very similar to yours. It was a texair gas/IR combo but had 4 IR panels that ran about 8' of the 10' heat chamber and weren't just at the ends. We ran the IR at 950, gas temp was around 360-370 (can't remember exactly) and belt speed set to around 18 (I remember that specifically). Sometimes we'd speed it up to 20 but most of the time it was on 18. 48" belt, 5' infeed, 5' outfeed, 10' heat and it kept up with our auto at full speed.
I think you should be able to get more out of that dryer since it is really close in capability to ours. I'm now wondering if our texair had continuous IR panels or if were at the front and rear only. I never opened up the top to see the panels but there were 4 identical plates with handles on the top so I assume there were IR panels under all of them.
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That does sound pretty much like ours Alan, though we have 2 panels on the front end, and one in the rear with the gas in the middle. We also have 48" Tex-Air with an old '94 Gauntlet in front of it. Both dryers have manuals on the sides, but they are rarely used. As I said, 2 guys on the press and the belts fill up nicely.
Steve
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Or how about a split belt?
And NOW I know what a split belt is for! :)
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Thats right Gil. We had two of these at Nike Sport Graphics when Nike was going to turn the world upside down with DC. Also one ginourmus one to handle two belt printers..........that really didn't turned out as planned; but thats Nike for you.
BTW they are veerrry expensive but very rarely one will come up used.
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I've seen them, just never put two and two together on why... It always puzzled me, now it makes so much sense I don't understand why I didn't realize it before! Ha!
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For what it's worth, we have a couple 72" Sprint 2000 ovens. One eats the shirts off a Challenger II and a Challenger III. Don't run them both on the dryer all the time, but during busy times, quite a bit. Gets a little trickier when both presses are running 2X or larger at the same time. Otherwise, NO issues. Oh yeah, hate to say it, but we are still strictly plastisol.
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Thats right Gil. We had two of these at Nike Sport Graphics when Nike was going to turn the world upside down with DC. Also one ginourmus one to handle two belt printers..........that really didn't turned out as planned; but thats Nike for you.
BTW they are veerrry expensive but very rarely one will come up used.
We actually got a quote on a split belt dryer from S.Roque and the prices was not much more than a single belt dryer with the same total width. That being said, their dryers were a bit more expensive than the M&R and Interchange ones I had compared them to. S.Roque claims their dryers rum more efficiently than the other companies, but I have yet to see hard evidence of that from them so who knows.
Which kinda brings me to another question(maybe I should start a new thread) how is it that what seems like all the companies can claim their gas dryer is the MOST efficient? I understand it has to do with the CFM and HP from the blower and whatnot, but don't exactly know how it is possible to actually determine who's is the most efficient to run. They don't have the "Energy Guide" like home furnaces, AC's, water heaters, TV's, ect.
Maybe Rich if you read this post you can enlighten us a bit. Seeing that you are the only company that seems to be helpful enough to publicly interact with us on the boards here, which is much appreciated. :)