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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Ifrvox on October 10, 2013, 03:18:21 PM
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Needing to get an automatic press but don't have any trade shows coming up close by to test drive any so I'm hoping enough family on here might know the best (Best warranties, least maintenance, cost to production ratio, etc.). Any info would be appreciated.
Crivelli's Shirts CA
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M&R hands down!
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It all depends on what you want your BMW to do. There are a few good options out there...the one already mentioned being one of them. Though I would hesitate to throw a name out without knowing what you are seeking in a press and what kind of clientele you serve.
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M&R hands down!
'respectfully disagree. M&R is more like a Caddy/Lincoln whereas the MHM would be more like a BMW. The engineering philosophies are much more suited to the European vs American comparison.
pierre
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It all depends on what you want your BMW to do. There are a few good options out there...the one already mentioned being one of them. Though I would hesitate to throw a name out without knowing what you are seeking in a press and what kind of clientele you serve.
Totally agree with this answer. The choice of the best press for your requirements should be based on your business and not a comparison to a motor vehicle. Maybe in the end you'll discover that you need a pick-up truck :)
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Everyone I know with BWM's have a lot of expensive repairs, is that what you are looking for?
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We do everything from 20- 1000 pieces and and range from 1 color to 4 color and sim process printing so I suppose I'd really be looking for the most versatile press if I had to specify my need. My assumptions were that most autos could do all that and I was looking for what company could get the most for the money.
Crivelli's Shirts CA
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M&R hands down!
'respectfully disagree. M&R is more like a Caddy/Lincoln whereas the MHM would be more like a BMW. The engineering philosophies are much more suited to the European vs American comparison.
pierre
I have to agree with Pierre. I have a MHM. It is the only press I have ever had or worked on, so my opinion may not hold much weight. I have talked to many other press owners and asked about problems they have. I have none of those problems. My presses pallets were leveled when installed and 2.5 years later they are still flat and printing perfect. I set up jobs easy. Registration is never a issue many times I never have to even touch the micros after putting in the screens. (look up the MHM screen holders and reg system). I am a one man shop so like big high production shops every second of the day counts. Yes this press has more "things" that can go wrong. Those things are what make this press faster and easier to use. Since the press was set up I have not had any down time. When I was getting the press set up i did deal with the manufacture and parts department. Parts are cheap and with a call to the tech (free) anyone can work on these presses.
All presses can do the job. Some are just easier to use. I am happy with my press and so is every other press owner. Look at all of them, find the one that fits you and your situation, money, time, skill.
Jon
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Since you can't see the presses in person these videos may help. Not all presses are represented but at least you can see some of them.
AUTO WARS 1 - Micro Registration
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html)
AUTO WARS 2 - Screen Holders
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html)
AUTO WARS 3 - Squeegees & Flood Bars
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html)
AUTO WARS 4 - Pallets
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html)
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Since you can't see the presses in person these videos may help. Not all presses are represented but at least you can see some of them.
AUTO WARS 1 - Micro Registration
[url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html[/url] ([url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2830.0.html[/url])
AUTO WARS 2 - Screen Holders
[url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html[/url] ([url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2868.0.html[/url])
AUTO WARS 3 - Squeegees & Flood Bars
[url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html[/url] ([url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,2914.0.html[/url])
AUTO WARS 4 - Pallets
[url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html[/url] ([url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,3018.0.html[/url])
Thanks Jon
Crivelli's Shirts CA
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I don't really think BMW's are all that and would prefer something else but that's not really revelant to what auto is the best. And now days I don't know that there is an answer that would cover good enough. Like others have said, it depends on what your needs are. If you are a shop that is needing to do 10-20 setups per day on a press and can afford to pay over 100K for a 10 to 12 color then look no further than the M&R Challenger III, or MHM S-type Xtreme with the Sroque Eco needing consideration. If money is absolutely no object and you want to do even more setups per day then the MHM 4000 might be your best bet or perhaps the Challenger IIID that is loaded to the kilt.
Now when it comes to the auto under 100K there are a lot of great options nowadays when there used to not be many options. If you simply chose the mid level press that has the most features then it would probably be the MHM X-Type. The M&R Sportsman EXG, RPM Revolution, Sroque You, Printex Prism, TAS Hawk, Progressive Falcon E, Anatol Stratus would all be on the list of considerations for a 10-12 color that isn't going to break the bank.
Now there are few presses that don't fit into the entry level category and are mid level machines but the price tag is greatly influenced by the options you get on it and the M&R Sportsman EX, Printex Spectrum, Anatol Stratus and the Falcon M could very well be considered strong mid level presses but they can also be had with fewer bells and whistles to keep the price down to well under $65K for a 10 color with 2 flashes and a few sets of pallets.
Then there is the entry level press category which I'll simply list the ones that come to mind and others can debate all they'd like: M&R Diamondback, Anatol Titan, Anatol Horizon, Anatol Volt, Workhorse/TUF Freedom, Workhorse/TUF Javelin, TAS Compact, Brown Electraprint, Lawson Trooper.
I have my favorites in each category and they are as follows:
Dreamland: MHM 4000 or Challenger IIID
High end: Challenger III or MHM S-type Xtreme
Mid level: MHM X-type
Mid level B: Sportsman EX
Entry level: Hard to pick a favorite
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Everyone I know with BWM's have a lot of expensive repairs, is that what you are looking for?
German ADAC (you have something similar in US, just forgot name of organisation) makes analysis of 2,5 mil breakdown reports per year.
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx (http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx)
Their statistics show completely different picture. BMWs tend to be very reliable.
I don't drive BMW, never have. But to point them out as being prone to a lot of repairs? You either know very small number of owners, or lack rational judgement.
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Everyone I know with BWM's have a lot of expensive repairs, is that what you are looking for?
German ADAC (you have something similar in US, just forgot name of organisation) makes analysis of 2,5 mil breakdown reports per year.
[url]http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx[/url] ([url]http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx[/url])
Their statistics show completely different picture. BMWs tend to be very reliable.
I don't drive BMW, never have. But to point them out as being prone to a lot of repairs? You either know very small number of owners, or lack rational judgement.
...or know folks with older ones.
To many of us, the love affair notwithstanding, we soon learn that BMW stands for "bring my wallet"!
At any rate, the OP clarified his needs, and perhaps "BMW" was not the best comparison anyway.
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Everyone I know with BWM's have a lot of expensive repairs, is that what you are looking for?
German ADAC (you have something similar in US, just forgot name of organisation) makes analysis of 2,5 mil breakdown reports per year.
[url]http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx[/url] ([url]http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx[/url])
Their statistics show completely different picture. BMWs tend to be very reliable.
I don't drive BMW, never have. But to point them out as being prone to a lot of repairs? You either know very small number of owners, or lack rational judgement.
...or know folks with older ones.
To many of us, the love affair notwithstanding, we soon learn that BMW stands for "bring my wallet"!
At any rate, the OP clarified his needs, and perhaps "BMW" was not the best comparison anyway.
Or as my Father likes to say, "B-M-Trouble you."
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Everyone I know with BWM's have a lot of expensive repairs, is that what you are looking for?
German ADAC (you have something similar in US, just forgot name of organisation) makes analysis of 2,5 mil breakdown reports per year.
[url]http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx[/url] ([url]http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/unfall-schaeden-und-panne/pannenstatistik/default.aspx[/url])
Their statistics show completely different picture. BMWs tend to be very reliable.
I don't drive BMW, never have. But to point them out as being prone to a lot of repairs? You either know very small number of owners, or lack rational judgement.
I know some BMW mechanics, I will stick with their info. Let's not turn this into a actual BMW thread. For crying out loud.
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What is your budget? And do you know how many heads you think you need? That would probably help narrow down which specific presses would be options.
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Ok this may be a long one!
I have said this before and will say it again. You can go out and Buy a MHM 4000AC but if your operator and scheduler don't know their ear from their elbow, you just wasted some serious coin. Incredible work can be done on a Brown or a Lawson(not that they are crap, just they usually don't get mentioned when talking about serious presses)
With that now said, lets pretend you have TonyP, Alan and Pierre running your shop, or a hybrid of the three which I like to think of myself as(I kid, I I kid) :P But seriously, if you got your personnel taken care of, then if you ask me the fun stuff happens....
When we bought our first press it was BASIC. All air, small, no bells quiet whistle, but that is what I ordered. After using that for years, I knew my next press was going to have everything. So forgive me if I go on, but I think the equipment has to be may favorite part of printing. I researched like crazy a little over a year ago, my final three were S.Roque, MHM and RPM. For the record I did not take service into my judging because I have survived and learned without it on my first press. Part availability WAS part of my judging though.
I would consider M&R the GMC of presses. They make a nice piece of equipment, and whats GMC's slogan? "We are professional grade" in the US and possibly the world(I am not a expert once you leave the sheltered boarders of the US) M&R has to be the most popular and there is a blue army that will come find you at night if you don't agree :P I would consider anatol a poor version of Chevy. They are popular, have a bunch of economically priced options but unlike Chevy, anatol doesn't back up their product. I chose the Chevy and GMC analogy because they, just like M&R and anatol, on the surface are very similar.
To continue with the world of cars, I would have to say the Caddy of presses, is the often under rated RPM. The amount of precision and repeat-ability on those things is sick. If Rick went to shows or had more production capabilities, he could kill it. Digital, digital, digital! If you take good notes on a run, you could do a reprint with EXACT the same precision. Ya, you can do it on other presses but not with the same exact precision, is what I am getting at overkill? Yes maybe, but sure would be a nice thing to have. Not that anyone uses either anymore, but would you rather have a cassette or CD? You can crank up Zeppelin on both, but aren't the CD's more convenient?
For the BMW/Benz/Bentley of presses, I felt it was the MHM S-Type(the 4000AC was too much) or the S.Roque ECO. Looking at the two of them there extremely similar. The ECO is less, but I didn't want to be sold on price alone, plus at the time I was buying they weren't really for sale in the US. So I talked to a bunch of MHM owners, most had a S-Type or 3000's. The owners loved them, had great things to say aside from who was selling them in the states pre-SPSI. The one thing I found extremely interesting and was a bit of a flag to me was almost every owner that had more than 2 presses mentioned they were concerned with the transfer of ownership to Arioli and what would come. Two of the companies had recently purchased S.Roque equipment and said they really liked it. So after a little more mulling it over S.Roque it was for us.
I have nothing but great things to say about the press and it's abilities. Provided the blue ninjas were on a shutdown like the government, I would put my ECO up against a CHIIID any day. That is not meant to be a slam, just that the press is so nice that it will convert someone or at least make them think twice provided they have a open mind. The press has it's "quirks" there are some translation things(kinda like you just use google to translate) and by default it does some things backwards than we are accustomed to on presses in the US. But after a week I began to wonder why the other presses don't do it that way.
I think the biggest thing against S.Roque here in the states is the newness of them, and they haven't fully adapted to Americans "styles". They don't fully explain ALL of what they offer. They will make a press any way you want with anything you want, they just don't say that. Looking at their site and such I thought "odd they don't have something similar to the 4000AC", well they do, same features and everything on their Oval EVO. Don't want a Oval? Just ask, they will modify a ECO. Want a sample machine like the M&R Pre-Runner? Oh ya, they have made those before, it is just a modified Oval Pro. Guess I am just saying they don't put it all out there in your face like we are used to.
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How soon are you looking to buy? ISS is in Long Beach in a few months. Try to get into shops using what you want to consider. Find shops that have changed. Trust the users
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If you look at the whole picture of reliability and back end support you have to say M&R. TAS is not bad either. Most outside the west coast dont see to many but they are a no frills workhorse that just run. I own an older M&R and the service and support I get from that alone is why I just bought a new dryer from them and will be adding another auto as well from them. Other manufactures make great machines as well but is their service as good?
What TCT says and will say again..... ;) Is totally true. You can get the best press in the world with all the fancy features and if the guy pushing the buttons doesn't know anything it is a huge wast of money. Not to toot my own horn but when we had an old V squeegee Javelin we put out award winning quality sim process and index work on it all the time. It just took longer to dial it in. That old machine is still running to this day in Vegas daily.
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All points well taken. Love to chime in but time prohibits. I've worked with the newest (not always best) and currrently with equipment that is over 20 ys old and yield consistent results. That said the newer models result in quicker setups when operated by properly trained employees. Sadly this is not often the case. Often we become enamoured with the sexy features of showroom machines without taking the time to analyze how they will fit in our real world. It's as equally important to know both what and who you're working.
much more but only working 1/2 day today and have to compress!
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Agree 100% with the sentiment that the brand and quality of equipment certainly matters, but not as much as what you and your employees do with that brand's equipment. I like Dave's take--try to talk to the people actually running or working on the presses. Personally, I don't see many presses I absolutely wouldn't want to have to print or work on, but there are many factors TO ME that make a press better or worse. All depends on what you're doing and how you do it.
I hope we've all learned something--about how it's not the best idea to compare and contrast peoples opinions of automatic presses with their opinions of a brand of vehicles, data on service of said vehicles, and other peoples opinions that they respect concerning the service of those vehicles... ;D
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Make sure while shopping you consider the COMPANY that makes the press as well as the press. You can have the best press in the world but if they fail to service, support, and so on then what good is it.
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Think we need a consumer reports-esq site for presses. reliability on "parts" of the press, True cost to own, blah blah blah.....
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Think we need a consumer reports-esq site for presses. reliability on "parts" of the press, True cost to own, blah blah blah.....
that is not a bad idea. Problem is, who would be paying for the presses that are to be tested?
The other option is to set up something like the JD Powers where it's a poll and ppl answer the questionnaire. That might be doable here.
pierre
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The problem with all of these posts on autos is they are all good and they all do the job. They are not like cars where handling and comfort, speed and reliability come into play. They are all faster then we can load, they all can print perfectly when set up right, they can all print all day every day for years with no problems. Sometimes you have to fix little things or adjust little things but that’s it. There is not much to them. We all have out favorites for one reason or another but even those reasons are only a little better than the other brands. One thing I will say if your going for bang for your buck buying used is always a better return on your investment. (as long as you buy a good used press, no issues)
One big issue I hear from other press operators (many other brands) is the screens move when they lock down the screens. That is one issue I dont have. I don't have a ton of time in my shop for stuff like that. Frustrations like that make you not what to adjust the micros if it’s off a hair. I was at a shop once and I they were printing a shirt. I looked at it and it had a little white underbase peaking out. I told them they need to bump it up just a hair. They said that its not worth it. It could take a half hour to get it right. That blew my mind. The press was only a few months old. The operator had years of experience…yikes.
I think you need to look at the day to day running of the press. Not just for what is faster. Look for what is easier, less steps, less frustrating.
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I don't know how Hirsch works with their support on the MHM presses, but I can say this, 13 calls and two days for them to get a tech to call us about a stupid saftey beam issue on the 6 head emb machine, lost all day of production yesterday, and over half of today for a quick phone call to tell me how to move a jumper to get back up and running and order a new part. That kinda sucks, but it seems for as large as a company they are, they only have a couple techs for the whole country. I couldn't imagine having that issue with an MHM, but maybe at least with MHM, maybe you can skype with somone in austria with their new tablet control panels, still seems like support is a little weak by the company repping them in the states. I could be wrong though, my only experience is with emb machines, but that's their main focus.
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Too many to read, so my experience was this; we wanted a 10/12 with 2 flashes, looked at most, but went with the MHM, and would do it again in a minute. Their film positioning unit, and the fact that what are add-on options for similar presses were solidly engineered and built in to the MHM. Now if we had a few M&R presses and used the triloc system, I would say M&R, great service. Personally, I don't care for the Triloc system, but I know it works great for those that do. You need to have some reps find you some locals who would be willing to let you in to see their presses. We saw a 10 color M&R locally in Mass., and flew to DC to see the MHM (they paid for the trip as long
as we bought the press). For service, we've never dealt with Hirsch, we have a number of friends who are ace electro-mechanics, and with a few phone calls, generally get it done. We've never been down for a long time
Steve
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The problem with all of these posts on autos is they are all good and they all do the job. They are not like cars where handling and comfort, speed and reliability come into play. They are all faster then we can load, they all can print perfectly when set up right, they can all print all day every day for years with no problems. Sometimes you have to fix little things or adjust little things but thats it. There is not much to them. We all have out favorites for one reason or another but even those reasons are only a little better than the other brands. One thing I will say if your going for bang for your buck buying used is always a better return on your investment. (as long as you buy a good used press, no issues)
One big issue I hear from other press operators (many other brands) is the screens move when they lock down the screens. That is one issue I dont have. I don't have a ton of time in my shop for stuff like that. Frustrations like that make you not what to adjust the micros if its off a hair. I was at a shop once and I they were printing a shirt. I looked at it and it had a little white underbase peaking out. I told them they need to bump it up just a hair. They said that its not worth it. It could take a half hour to get it right. That blew my mind. The press was only a few months old. The operator had years of experience
yikes.
I think you need to look at the day to day running of the press. Not just for what is faster. Look for what is easier, less steps, less frustrating.
That screen moving thing happened on our old centurian and a few manual presses I've had in here and you're right, if you can't unlock the micros and move them consistently every time, head to head, then I'd go insane. One of the reasons our modified triloc works so well is because when you flip the screen lock switch, the screens do not move, shift, slide, nothing, they are locked down exactly where the screen was when you flipped the switch. When you go to make a micro adjustment, you flip a toggle to unlock the left side clamp, then make your micro adjustment, and then lock the screen back down and there are no surprises like I've seen on many autos and manuals. It makes all the difference in the world to not have to deal with weird screen movements.
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I know on my DB there is nothing SMOOTH about it, the micros jump some times, thankfully with the CTS we don't have alot of microing at all if at all, but if a roller frame has the slightest rack to it, it will automatically move once locked in place. After you have a nice perfect alignment after microing on any head, I always have to take into consideration the fact that when I tighten the micro lock, it will pull the screen in more, so after a while you get used to double checking or under adjusting since the micro locks pull on the screen. It took me a while to nail it all down, but now it's easy. It is a pain in the tail though in comparison to some other micro systems I've seen. Like the little positioning stickers. 1 or 2 cleanings on the press and the stickers come off and then you are left with nothing really to use as an indicator where as I've seen other presses have actual pressed, or engraved positioning increments in place. I have just gotten used to going off of the image on the actual screen rather than looking at a reading on an indicator. I can see where digital microing would be sick awesome, but, keeping in mind that's more electronic parts to potentially go down. I know what ever we do next we want a lot more control and features than we have now. Really looking forward to checking everything out at Orlando SGIA in a couple weeks.
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I know on my DB there is nothing SMOOTH about it, the micros jump some times, thankfully with the CTS we don't have alot of microing at all if at all, but if a roller frame has the slightest rack to it, it will automatically move once locked in place. After you have a nice perfect alignment after microing on any head, I always have to take into consideration the fact that when I tighten the micro lock, it will pull the screen in more, so after a while you get used to double checking or under adjusting since the micro locks pull on the screen. It took me a while to nail it all down, but now it's easy. It is a pain in the tail though in comparison to some other micro systems I've seen. Like the little positioning stickers. 1 or 2 cleanings on the press and the stickers come off and then you are left with nothing really to use as an indicator where as I've seen other presses have actual pressed, or engraved positioning increments in place. I have just gotten used to going off of the image on the actual screen rather than looking at a reading on an indicator. I can see where digital microing would be sick awesome, but, keeping in mind that's more electronic parts to potentially go down. I know what ever we do next we want a lot more control and features than we have now. Really looking forward to checking everything out at Orlando SGIA in a couple weeks.
I know on my DB there is nothing SMOOTH about it, the micros jump some times, thankfully with the CTS we don't have alot of microing at all if at all, but if a roller frame has the slightest rack to it, it will automatically move once locked in place. After you have a nice perfect alignment after microing on any head, I always have to take into consideration the fact that when I tighten the micro lock, it will pull the screen in more, so after a while you get used to double checking or under adjusting since the micro locks pull on the screen. It took me a while to nail it all down, but now it's easy. It is a pain in the tail though in comparison to some other micro systems I've seen. Like the little positioning stickers. 1 or 2 cleanings on the press and the stickers come off and then you are left with nothing really to use as an indicator where as I've seen other presses have actual pressed, or engraved positioning increments in place. I have just gotten used to going off of the image on the actual screen rather than looking at a reading on an indicator. I can see where digital microing would be sick awesome, but, keeping in mind that's more electronic parts to potentially go down. I know what ever we do next we want a lot more control and features than we have now. Really looking forward to checking everything out at Orlando SGIA in a couple weeks.
there is no reason you should have to compensate your movement on the micro. Call my cell and I will tell you what to adjust to stop this.
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Sportsman EX - micro adj stable 99% of the time if>
Screen clamped F&B -
-Unlock Back (front locked)> Loosen micros > Adjust > Tighten Micros>
Clamp back > Test Print>> Repeat if necessary.
Never really use Back micros.