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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: 3Deep on June 20, 2013, 12:08:22 PM
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While I'm waiting on UPS I was thumbing thru screenprinting mag and found this article, I know some you have talked about this a bunch with waterbase inks, this article was written by Mark Vasilantone from Vastex. removing moisture with IR vs gas heat
Darryl
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While I'm waiting on UPS I was thumbing thru screenprinting mag and found this article, I know some you have talked about this a bunch with waterbase inks, this article was written by Mark Vasilantone from Vastex. removing moisture with IR vs gas heat
Darryl
IR can cure waterbase but is not the preferred way by a long shot. Just ask anyone doing discharge at speed which one works the best. Also typically gas will be around three times cheaper to operate than electric in most places
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Rich, I can't speak on this as I have never used gas for my dryers, I just found this article and thought it was interesting...vastex makes a lot of dryers as do you, question did you read what Mark wrote?
Darryl
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i agree with Rich, while it might work, it certainly isn't the preferred method. I think a great way is with an IR bump panel in front of a gas dryer chamber.
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i agree with Rich, while it might work, it certainly isn't the preferred method. I think a great way is with an IR bump panel in front of a gas dryer chamber.
Another way of doing something like this is to run a flash on the last head of the press. Gives it a "bump" also....
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It can be done but god is it slow. The Maxi Cure it needs to go through twice and the Vastex needs 3 sometimes 4 times. Both are at slowest belt speed. I even tried putting the Maxi behind the Vastex with some one in between pulling from one setting on the other still no joy.
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I run wb & dc through an econo red ii with a 3' chamber. It is really slow (35-45 an hour) but I have not had to run them through 2x or 3x.
Matt
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I run them through until I can not smell the discharge in them (when using discharge). I know in theory they will dry eventually at room temp, guess I'm just a little over cautious.
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I think the point of the article is more to tell anyone that has an IR dryer that doesn't print
WB because of it that it certainly is possible. Don't let a stupid thing like a dryer hold
you back. Evo on here used a Scamp I think.
With the apparent increase in WB printing I'd wager there's a market for smaller gas fired
dryers. And with the decrease in heat chamber length we just might see a return
to the IR bump days.
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I think the point of the article is more to tell anyone that has an IR dryer that doesn't print
WB because of it that it certainly is possible. Don't let a stupid thing like a dryer hold
you back. Evo on here used a Scamp I think.
With the apparent increase in WB printing I'd wager there's a market for smaller gas fired
dryers. And with the decrease in heat chamber length we just might see a return
to the IR bump days.
Maybe he did, but I seem to only remember references over the years to my Scamp. and it was an original 4 footer!
The only water based I may have ever run with it was airbrushed Union AeroTex and whatever else Union had twenty years ago. I had a big stash from my old boss who gave up on it.
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Evo ran a Ranar but it was a step above a scamp I believe
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Got a buddy down the street with a workhouse ir dryer. 4 or 5 foot chamber I believe. Does discharge thru it just fine
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Misconception? Not really. Just depends on your volume of output. We have electric and gas dryers and cannot wait to get rid of the electric one. I'm sorry but all of the electric dryers I have had the privilege of running cannot handle hundreds of shirts an hour regarding discharge. And running them through twice doesn't count. And if you have to do that might as just slow the press down anyway.
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Airflow and chamber time are the missing links.
If you have enough air flowing in the chamber you can generate the heat anyway you like. Gas is preferable but any form of hot (hot enough that is) moving air with a rate of exchange will do it. We have a 10' chamber TexAir that is all electric and the appx 6' forced air section is heated with U shaped finstrip heaters. The shirts get gently bumped on either end with IR. Gas is smarter of course but our dryer keeps up with an all air auto (single op) and a manual running DC, or the auto with a loader/puller, (think up to 700pcs/hr, depending on print size) and performs well without fixing agents or catalysts in the ink.
I would definitely used fixers and/or catalysts in short IR setups though.
On the vastex, the problem here is chamber time. They are based around being shorty dryers, which is rad when space is tight but you simply can't get this done without adequate chamber time. Hence it working out on two goes with something like a maxi cure on low belt speed but probably taking too many goes on dryer with a 1-2' chamber.
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But yeah, I agree this is not a "misconception". If yer conception is that a vastex dryer is probably one of the dumbest ways to run DC than you would be correct. I think I remember a video they made showing this and it was this super sad DC red, almost tragicomic.
Those little dryers are excellent for what they are but the co. seems to enjoy making them appear to be more than they are.
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14 Hix oven with 9' IR here, 24" belt, no forced air in it, but good ventilation. We run DC just fine in one pass through the dryer with about a 2 minute dwell in the heat @ 310 - 325F. Throughput is a function of print size, our pullers get really good at folding shirts to printed image area. Small prints we run up to 45-55 doz/hour without too much trouble. big prints it's much slower. A gasser will be our next significant purchase.
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I should revise my previous post. Yes, you can do it and there are some nice, larger electric dryers out there. And I have done it myself with very small runs on small electric dryers as well. I was just seeing the small dryer in the picture and thinking of large orders and going no way. And even with small dryers and small orders it is just a time killer. Just my opinion
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I love for Mark to join this discussion, feel kind of bad now for posting it, cuz he can't defend there product, but I see this way we all know what works for us in our shops more than someone who just builds a product and tell you what it suppose to be able to do.
Darryl
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I love for Mark to join this discussion, feel kind of bad now for posting it, cuz he can't defend there product, but I see this way we all know what works for us in our shops more than someone who just builds a product and tell you what it suppose to be able to do.
Darryl
I dont think any defense is needed everyone here is agreeing there is proof of concept but in production its not practical. I have an 54" vastex and tried discharge just like Brian said it took several passes through the drier at the slowest belt speed. Thats ridiculous to consider for a production run.
As the Myth Busters would say "Plausible"
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Yeah, I don't think anyone is trying criticize any product out there. I for sure don't know how to build a dryer, gas or electric! I am just saying some electric dryers are just not meant for heavy production of some types of ink. Not all ink, just some.
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Yeah, I don't think anyone is trying criticize any product out there. I for sure don't know how to build a dryer, gas or electric! I am just saying some electric dryers are just not meant for heavy production of some types of ink. Not all ink, just some.
I agree, and I don’t think that anyone is being critical of Mark or the quality and performance of any of the VASTEX equipment. The question is simply; “Can you cure discharge and other water-base screen-printing inks in a smaller infra-red dryer?” and the answer is yes.
The bigger question is; “Can you use this equipment to effectively cure these inks in a volume production environment?” and the answer is going to be that they would be better off with a gas forced air dryer.
BTW, I think that VASTEX makes good equipment, and I continue to be impressed with the level of customer service and support that Mark and his team provide.
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Just to clarify it can be done. I have a bunch of Vastex equipment and its all great stuff. But in a production world considering most of our jobs are 72 pieces or more its just not practical. I can get about 40-50 per hour through the dryer, a 72 piece job your looking at 90 min to complete at that rate I'm loosing money.
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Did it on my fusion, and it works but its slow. Sold that sucker and got a new sprint 2000 and its far superior. But both work.
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Ok I'm back on this again, in the near future here I'm going to get another dryer mainly for production speed, gas won't happen no room for it. I would love to do more discharge, but at a good production rate, and you guys answered a lot of questions, I just really never like the vastex dryers though they are great for tight spaces and would be great with manual printing. So if I'm looking for a dryer in the 10 foot range to go with a smaller auto what would be a good choice? and I might like to run smaller discharge orders.
Darryl
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Have you looked at the Mini Sprint? I think is only about 14' (8' heat 3' in and out) with a 38" belt. Or the Heat Wave which is smaller.
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If you ain't got the room for length, go as wide as you can. That way if running slow,
at least you can run 'em side by side.
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Yep, Mini Sprint is a pretty serious piece of gear for the footprint. I think it comes in at least two different belt widths.
I run an IR that only has six feet of heat, and there's no way I'd do WB production. Even plastisol discharge systems I could only do 80-120 pieces an hour or so. I can't imagine you could get even ten or twelve feet of IR chamber that would do better than that Mini...
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Ebscreen, wide is what I going for, I guess if I toss out my manual press I could go length, but I still kinda like having it, using it right now for that matter.
Darryl
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Our manual sits in the corner like a shamed child. I think we used it once last year.
Should probably get rid of it but can't bring myself to do it....
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Darryl, check out a mini sprint. They are really compact and I see them on the used market frequently. Bigger is always better with DC/WB and dryers but you would be able to run DC on your auto at a decent clip I think.
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darryl, when you finally make it up here, check out our interchange, they make them pretty small. I would do things differently in the future though.
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Brad I was up your way last Friday and Saturday, but it was such a whirl wind getting my son from camp to camp and hotels we just didn't have time, I was hoping to drop him off and swing by your place for a hour. We will be headed to Rome next month so maybe I'll have time then.
Darryl
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cool, also, high voltage prints from the boards is up that way.
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Have you looked at Anatol's new (36" wide belt) series of Gas Dryers -
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personally, I would do an interchange again, but I would have added an IR bump panel.
or I would have bought a dryer from winston...his design is sweet
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Gas is out of the question, I would love to get a 36 or a touch wider if it was about 10 feet or less in length IR dryer.
Darryl
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I personally would do whatever it took to get a gas dryer in my shop. Even if it looks like too much work or whatever the case may be, I wouldn't stop trying until it was literally impossible or if the dryer guru's said it was impossible.
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I personally would do whatever it took to get a gas dryer in my shop. Even if it looks like too much work or whatever the case may be, I wouldn't stop trying until it was literally impossible or if the dryer guru's said it was impossible.
all I have to say is our last gas bill was $160 for one of our busiest months ever! This is for the Interchange MD-8. It is much bigger than our 10' electric, but it costs less to run and will produce so much more. There are also no more fears of overcooking stuff.
pierre
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personally, I would do an interchange again, but I would have added an IR bump panel.
or I would have bought a dryer from winston...his design is sweet
You will have to excuse me here, what dryer does Winston make and who is this fellow? I am finalizing my list for a new dryer.
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I personally would do whatever it took to get a gas dryer in my shop. Even if it looks like too much work or whatever the case may be, I wouldn't stop trying until it was literally impossible or if the dryer guru's said it was impossible.
all I have to say is our last gas bill was $160 for one of our busiest months ever! This is for the Interchange MD-8. It is much bigger than our 10' electric, but it costs less to run and will produce so much more. There are also no more fears of overcooking stuff.
pierre
Jealous. Our last electric bill broke records, I think it was almost $900 for our sub 2k sf shop, single shift and we only print/run dryer about 6-7 hours a day. We're guesstimating about 300-400 is the TexAir dryer. Just talked about taking an SBA equip loan on something like an interchange, need to crunch numbers on it but I think the payment + gas bill really would be the same or less than the current electric charges. I would be shickled titless to have a $160 gas bill instead.
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there is a freaking $75 charge just to have gas around here...per month, and it's still cheaper than our old electric.
Winston is a dryer guru, I don't have his number handy, but Sonny can get it for you, I think he has it memorized.
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Winston = great dude!
Util companies drive me up a wall. Seriously? A charge so you can have the privilege of overpaying them? grrrrr... our state got suckered into a bunch of jive talk from a former gov who was in bed with a util holding co. and a big part of our rates come from us "privatizing" the utilities in the state- one company owns all the lines now and has since the bill passed.
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904-343-0848
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I personally would do whatever it took to get a gas dryer in my shop. Even if it looks like too much work or whatever the case may be, I wouldn't stop trying until it was literally impossible or if the dryer guru's said it was impossible.
all I have to say is our last gas bill was $160 for one of our busiest months ever! This is for the Interchange MD-8. It is much bigger than our 10' electric, but it costs less to run and will produce so much more. There are also no more fears of overcooking stuff.
pierre
Jealous. Our last electric bill broke records, I think it was almost $900 for our sub 2k sf shop, single shift and we only print/run dryer about 6-7 hours a day. We're guesstimating about 300-400 is the TexAir dryer. Just talked about taking an SBA equip loan on something like an interchange, need to crunch numbers on it but I think the payment + gas bill really would be the same or less than the current electric charges. I would be shickled titless to have a $160 gas bill instead.
Our electric went down and so did our gas when we went to a gas dryer. Reason being is we were heating the warehouse with 220k btu gas heaters (2), well now the M&R Dryer is out there and we never have to use the gas to heat the warehouse. The dryer does it for us. I think our gas bill is around 100-175 range all year and that is with gas heat, gas water heater, gas dryer, and gas heaters in warehouse. Used to touch $300-400 in winter when we used the heaters. So I am saving a good bit on the gas bill.
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Our manual sits in the corner like a shamed child. I think we used it once last year.
Should probably get rid of it but can't bring myself to do it....
Exactly the same here. I have move things from under/around/in between arms to print on the thing, and it's only for a sleeve print or leg print which are scarce these days.
I have about 1800 sq/ft and I managed to squeeze in a 60" precision vortex that's 20' long. I can barely squeeze a cart of shirts by it, but damn it's worth it!
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Before the sprint Int. our electric bills were averaging 1200 a month for this building, now they average 550 with less gas consumption than the old American dryer. I think our gas bill is under 200 a month now and it was almost 300 if I remember correctly. That's why I say I wouldn't stop trying to put a gas dryer in my shop until it was deemed impossible.