I hope it does and expect it will. Thats how technology rolls, only forward.
I uploaded a sample. Can't tell too much from it but looks very interesting.
What would be great is to have a sep program that automatically created spot colors of tones instead of using mixes of other colors to create the color. Then that would peak my interest. Thats what we really need.
So how would a drag and drop separation program that breaks an image into set component colors
, each spanning the entire image at various percentages replace color separators?
It won't, by the very nature of what it's doing...probably ever.
It's not like others haven't considered this approach already and came to the obvious conclusion.
Nothing new, dramatic or exciting there but always fun to nerd out and think about this stuff.
Anywho, Dan, you say "spot colors of tones". I don't know what that means, but I'll add it as soon as you let me know what that is. If it's not added already, that is. Because... uh, you can (well, not yet! Patience please) add any color you like. Pinks, Dark greens, Urobilins, Verdigris etc. are no problem.Well, what we are more so speaking of, is instead of using 2-4 colors of a standard list, blending together to make a yellow, pale, it would be ideal to have it be able to make a spot color (a solid area) that IS pale yellow (that we then designate as pms 148 (rather than using small percentages of 2-4 different colors of various %'s of halftone to make that look of pms 148. What they others do now, is that they mix up 2-4 or 5 different colors....to get one. THAT is similar to trying to use CMYK to get pms 148. Now, I'm not saying' that it needs to MATCH pms 148, but at least be able to provide a isolated area that WE can assign our inks to once printed to films. We would make the match on press using an actual pms 148. All that is sort of an example. I don't know the limitations of what you are able to do. Like you said, I'd probably never be abel t understand...and I'm not offended by that at all. :)
It's not easy having to write things in multiple languages, you know, and for multiple OSs... It's work! But I'll have it not too long from now.QWe can only imagine.
And ezscreen.com is totally not mine. Someone else is doing that. I don't even know what it's for... sorry.QuoteI tried to locate you're name on T-shirtforums and dig up some intel and came across that (as i thought was your screen image). EZ Screen. I must have been looking at something else. All I could see was you were from PA. You should do a post in Introductions. That would be great.QuoteAnyway, if you don't like something about it, let me know. I'm gonna fix it up to make you happy. The only thing I can't do is remove it because it threatens your job, your friend's job or because you don't like me.HAHA!. That was funny to me..and familiar at the same time. LOL but I digress.QuoteThere's too many people that would be grateful to have it and I wouldn't want to disappoint them.Quoteand so you shall please many.QuoteI'm here to supply solutions. If you think it stinks in some way (not talking to you Dan, just anybody) then Good for You. It's important you have an opinion or you'd be no better than a potato! And so you have one and that's a great start!Understood. No troubles here man. We're with ya...and lord knows we have an opinion. LOL. Those who commented already, were giving their opinions based on past experiences. Thats all we really want to do in these discussions is give and receive opinions.Quote@raven, just so you know, this does SPOT SEPS and there are many others that do that. So Yeah, it's "just another".QuoteBut none that do what I described above) and thats what we're talking about needing. As mentioned, if you can do that, you're golden.QuoteI'm just joining the ranks of the tired old "I can do better" clan. Those who can refrain from judgement and open their minds may just find that I'm just one of the few who's actually right.LOL. I love this guy!QuoteThis is not some script I threw at PS to sell it as a "separation engine". Instead, I built (in real programming languages that compile to machine code) a separation engine engine. Yes, an engine that makes separation engines. What you see in the browser, that thing that makes it, that was made just for your sep. It depends on your inks, which depend on your image. Your art has a (often times) unique, never before used engine that separates your art so it fits your inks, your screens, your methods and your shirt color.Ba-zing! That sounds amazing!QuoteThis may be just another program that breaks colors up into red yellow blue etc, but it does that better than any program out there for one, and for two it will also break colors up into vermillion, auburn and dark, dark maroon. You can't see that because that big "+" with the ink splash doesn't do anything... yet. Note the 'yet'. Coming soon. Patience... ;D .QuoteCan't wait!QuoteInstead of telling me how it's boring and the same, tell me what you want.QuoteWell, we will for sure now. Who listens to us tho? We never had someone come in and ask for our thoughts while they were developing something. They just come in and tell us what it does and say, (This is it!) the thing you've never seen anything like. So you can see, we're a bit gun shy. You'd of thought that Adobe may have said hey, lets see what those printers are looking for out of a program. Nope.QuoteBecause I'm telling you, I can put it in there. That's not a joke or anything. I'll just put it in there and that'll be that. This thing is not a part of the ton of "I think I can".very refreshing. Now, I can see a few coming in and replying to say, "I'll believe it when I see". So don't get bent when you see that. It's bound to happen. It just human nature. Anytime you communicate with tons of people from all walks of life, you're gonna hear a comment that is different that you might expect. So, it's cool tho. Stay with us. :)QuoteAnd I don't want to brag. But I put a boatload of work into this. 3 years and counting. (or is it 5? It'd have to check). In any case, at least 3 years. And that's a lot. And so if I put in the sweat then I may just get the props as well.QuoteGranted and bestowed upon you these things shall be if even a hint of what you say it indeed shown to be true. Currently, no offense, but all we have really, is a preview and a guy from out of the sky that says he is our separation saviour. We're looking for a good savior. So don't take that as a snide comment. :)QuoteBut I have to say that it irks me when @ravenmark says that it's same old same old, when by his own admission he hasn't even looked at it yet.Ahe, take no offense to what he says. He meant no ill will to you at all. it's like I said. you know, we've seen them all say the same thing and while they have been decent and VERY beneficial to many and worth the money they paid, they were not the holy grail.QuoteI think forming opinions on things you know nothing of certainly has the effect that you can't benefit from knowledge, but only am hampered by an unfounded opinion.QuoteAwe, we all do that every day. We form opinions of people simply walking down the street and we know nothing about them. We all do it. It happens. We see tho, that you are a cool cat and are open to suggestions and feedback. Finally! We embrace you as a brethren.QuoteSo anyway, weird that there's a (big) hint of hostility before I even register with the damn forum. Thanks for the warm welcome there raven...[/ quote] Well, this is a bit off topic, but yea. We also have an upswing of Separation updates and new methods getting promoted lately, so, it's not hostility,QuoteIt even chooses inks for you. You don't have to do that. It's not perfect in picking the inks, mind you (work in progress), but it is extremely close to perfect in using those inks and you can change the inks (when it's done, again, this is a test). It will turn the King into the Emperor. DTG will be like not a good idea unless it's for 3 shirts. Even then... it looks better as Spot!
It all sounds "spot on". good deal. Keep pugg'n away and please feel free to keep us updated. I'm sure plenty of people here will be glad to provide suggestions and feedback.
We just have to make sure we all stay focused and not let things go in the directions as some recent post have when getting passionate about a subject. Stay the course!
There are limitations to separating art with a computer/using math.
It will (if programed correctly) accurately break down and even potentially mix the colors, but there is more to separating then just breaking down the colors. For an average print, computer generated seps can potentially be OK. I have seen some that were perfectly fine, but they were nowhere near what we get with the manual separations. And this is after time was spent to adjust the computer generated seps (at least an half an hour to an hour).
there are limitations to what the software can do on it's own and art comes in so many different types that it is impossible to accommodate all the possibilities.
I keep bringing up the fade from yellow to red and how that should be printed with solid yellow on the bottom and gradual fade of red on top (with red starting at the lowest percentage halftone that the particular shop can handle). This avoids the sharp transition lines and shirt or underbase peeking through.
This is just one of about hundred things that separators take into account when working on the art. At this point in time, computers are unable to do that
and even if the algorithms were made to do it, the application of those would never be as precise as what a person can do
... due exactly to the different circumstances having the same formula applied (for example, transition from yellow to maroon would work different from transition from yellow to warm red).
Another example is the compensation for the surrounding color.
485c on medium gray looks downright orange. To keep the overall feel of the image correct, that color might have to be printed with a less yellowish red. If computer separates with the 485 and it is used to blend other colors in the artwork (for example any oranges that might be present), than that 485 shade can not be altered without altering the orange too.
There are many cases like this where human is the only machine that will produce correct results. Again, if close is close enough, computer might do the trick, but this is not the case for our customers.
I am not stating anything new here, this was said by the foremost industry experts and our experience backs it up (and since you probably have no idea who we are and where I am coming from, I'll throw out that we have a shelf full of awards for the work we do including a couple of Golden Images).
This is not to belittle the program you are making, it will be an excellent tool for many, and some might even get push button results they can use, but it will not eliminate the manual separations.
The program that would be capable of of producing human level seps would be incredibly complicated, many hundreds if thousands of times more complex than the chess software that relies on calculation power and very limited set of rules.
And just to be fair, there are also limitations to what is being done by hand. Those seps are not perfect either as the human error is introduced too. Computers can run the same operation time and time again with the same results, we humans tend to forget a step here and there. . .
So to recap, this can turn into a very valuable tool, but it will not replace the manual separations completely. It might help them produce faster and even eliminate teh need for them in some instances, but knowledgeable separator will run circles around the computer in most cases. The quality of the final outcome will dictate the rout that can be taken.
If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want
Pretty much what Pierre said. I will go out on a limb and say there will never be a sep "program"/auto punch that can match hand pulled seps unless the original art is designed around the EXACT colors the program is pulling. I'm attaching a design that our artist just finished up a few weeks back, this is a great example of artwork that this sep program(or any for that matter) cannot accurately pull the PMS colors we are needing to print. The sep program might pull a cyan blue when in fact we need it to pull a pms 320 teal color. The sep program tries to make the pms 320 with a cyan, white, and green color all mixing halftones together when the overall print would look MUCH better printing a straight pms 320 color, not 3-4 colors blending together. The bottom line is unless the auto seps programs can pull the exact colors we are wanting to print on press, then it's still the same ole auto sep program imo and really isn't better then much else. If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want PMS 109, PMS 320, PMS 7502, PMS 216, etc then the program would pull seps based on the colors we tell it, then it would be special. Until that happens.....all I can say is meh....
I would be 100% game to have ddsol or tom do a sep like they are talking about on the attached artwork using their method.... Then we will have our house artist do a set of manual seps and compare the difference. I just don't see the programs pulling the exact colors that we need to print. In theory you should be able to print the main colors of the color wheel to achieve all other colors but on press and in real life shops, that is impossible to achieve..... When dealing with difference opacity inks, different shirt colors, the way colors blend on press, etc the real world doesn't lend itself to auto seps, but again this is just my opinion. All the math in the world will not solve the problems we run into on press, bottom line.
Sorry guys. As we speak scientists are working on math to solve everything, and I mean everything. Look for "Theory of everything". I can damn well solve this simple thing.
And don't say never. There already is. However, my poor sep program cannot possibly be expected to read you mind. You'll have to tell it you want 320 or 319 or 1782 or whatever it is you think is "the cool color du jour". You get what you want. My program doesn't care either way. It will use any color you throw at it, and as many as you want (except webgl won't allow more than 10 or 12, which you'll never need anyway).QuoteIf the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want
You can. It's already there. Actually. You just can't delete the auto-suggest colors yet.
It's not done... except for the engine, which is done and extremely good.
I sepped your image. I didn't change anything. 5 colors it came up with. (You should know it tries to use a few inks as it can get away with. I will add the "High end" target later on. In the mean time, you'll have to add your own PMS colors. You can.)
Remember, this thing is now just a test. But it will be a product. It isn't. But it will be. It can separate, yes, but it can't output the seps. So, no I can't make films out of your cool picture. Just on-screen previews for now... sorry. BUT, you can zoom in SO FAR that you can see what dot goes where, and you can see ink opacities, because you can see one dot through another. So, that's pretty close to proof, I'd say. Give it a shot instead of giving me opinions about stuff you didn't look at!
C'mon peeps! You don't have to install ANYthing! Just click this link ([url]http://68.80.79.166/seps.html[/url]). Try it! Try it! Just go and try it! See how cool it is! Really... you really gonna say it don't work when you didn't even peek? My my... then there's not anything I can say, not even using 1000000 words!
Btw, you'll need the image as a PNG (never save as JPG! It's lossy!)
But attachment size is too small... It won't upload. Grmbl.
I mean, have you made any programs lately? They done a pretty bang up job for the paper printing industry. But, maybe Screen Printing falls in the Mystic Voodoo category.
I think it's a long shot trying to have a program that can account for shirt colors, the way inks blend, etc
For instance, does your sep program account for the screens that are first in the print order having more dot gain then the screens last in the print order
I just can't fathom,how any auto program can account for everything for every shop out thereBecause YOU can't fathom it, you think it therefore most be unfathomable. Well, I have fathomed the crap out of it. It has been thoroughly fathomed. Leave the fathoming to those with a high degree of fathomability.
Why do you need to be so damn rude and condescending? Yes I know what XM is.
That's nice lpi works great on higher mesh counts but not always ideal for open areas that need good ink coverage for opacity.
And seriously if you can't be respectful when talking to people you can go pound sand for all I care. And Tom you have the gall to say people are bashing him. The dude is turning into a world class jerk.
Pretty much what Pierre said. I will go out on a limb and say there will never be a sep "program"/auto punch that can match hand pulled seps unless the original art is designed around the EXACT colors the program is pulling. I'm attaching a design that our artist just finished up a few weeks back, this is a great example of artwork that this sep program(or any for that matter) cannot accurately pull the PMS colors we are needing to print. The sep program might pull a cyan blue when in fact we need it to pull a pms 320 teal color. The sep program tries to make the pms 320 with a cyan, white, and green color all mixing halftones together when the overall print would look MUCH better printing a straight pms 320 color, not 3-4 colors blending together. The bottom line is unless the auto seps programs can pull the exact colors we are wanting to print on press, then it's still the same ole auto sep program imo and really isn't better then much else. If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want PMS 109, PMS 320, PMS 7502, PMS 216, etc then the program would pull seps based on the colors we tell it, then it would be special. Until that happens.....all I can say is meh....
I would be 100% game to have ddsol or tom do a sep like they are talking about on the attached artwork using their method.... Then we will have our house artist do a set of manual seps and compare the difference. I just don't see the programs pulling the exact colors that we need to print. In theory you should be able to print the main colors of the color wheel to achieve all other colors but on press and in real life shops, that is impossible to achieve..... When dealing with difference opacity inks, different shirt colors, the way colors blend on press, etc the real world doesn't lend itself to auto seps, but again this is just my opinion. All the math in the world will not solve the problems we run into on press, bottom line.
How hard is it. Most seppers have specs Today. They say "tension this, mesh count that". They don't ask what you want. They just tell you how to do it.Yes and no. It's about a 70/30. Most want me to tell them. Another portion prefers to tell me what they want to use (out of necessity). Maybe they don't have 305's on hand and maybe they can't hold the small dots on a 65 lpi. So, they tell me to use 230 mesh and 55 lpi. Thats all good dialogue that I need.
And I think most screen printers like that a lot better than having to be faced with a slider that says "EOM?" And they're like "EOM? WTF is EOM?". And then I have to do an EOM video that no one wants to waste time to watch.LOL. Now, you all know THATS TRUE for a decent amount of printers. LOL. Not many of this bunch, but yea. It can be like that. We all know it. everyones starting at some time and many will say that same thing until they get some ink under their skin.
He's surly not Tom or realted. LOL. Tom would have pulled out a machete 10 post back. LOL. That was a joke Tom. Don't kill me.
Pretty much what Pierre said. I will go out on a limb and say there will never be a sep "program"/auto punch that can match hand pulled seps unless the original art is designed around the EXACT colors the program is pulling. I'm attaching a design that our artist just finished up a few weeks back, this is a great example of artwork that this sep program(or any for that matter) cannot accurately pull the PMS colors we are needing to print. The sep program might pull a cyan blue when in fact we need it to pull a pms 320 teal color. The sep program tries to make the pms 320 with a cyan, white, and green color all mixing halftones together when the overall print would look MUCH better printing a straight pms 320 color, not 3-4 colors blending together. The bottom line is unless the auto seps programs can pull the exact colors we are wanting to print on press, then it's still the same ole auto sep program imo and really isn't better then much else. If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want PMS 109, PMS 320, PMS 7502, PMS 216, etc then the program would pull seps based on the colors we tell it, then it would be special. Until that happens.....all I can say is meh....
I would be 100% game to have ddsol or tom do a sep like they are talking about on the attached artwork using their method.... Then we will have our house artist do a set of manual seps and compare the difference. I just don't see the programs pulling the exact colors that we need to print. In theory you should be able to print the main colors of the color wheel to achieve all other colors but on press and in real life shops, that is impossible to achieve..... When dealing with difference opacity inks, different shirt colors, the way colors blend on press, etc the real world doesn't lend itself to auto seps, but again this is just my opinion. All the math in the world will not solve the problems we run into on press, bottom line.
Thanks for the challenge how many colors do you want to print it in? 6, 10? 12? I can break it down slice it dice it you tell me.
Now that we've established that you don't know what we're talking about and we don't know what you're talking about, maybe we can all take the time to explain what we're talking about without the abrasiveness?
Screen printers are sometimes very matter-of-fact without explanation. There's a lot of "that won't work" that goes on here and it all has to be taken with a grain of salt. I see it every day here but I keep an open mind and don't necessarily believe what everyone types. After all, this is the internet, and it stands to reason that most people on the internet are experts and don't type a lot of "in my opinion" and "I think" or "I believe".
I think the best disclaimer with ANY separations handed to a any Joe screen printer is: "your results may vary"
The hardest part of your job DDSol isn't the coding, it's accumulating all these opinions, then drawing conclusions defining concrete variables.
This thread reminds of.... ;D
[url]http://embed.break.com/NDg4NzIx/ai/0/zi/0/ds/1/st/embed[/url]
Again, it's not to put you or your product down. I have much respect for your products. It's a rare opportunity for all interested.
As a small business shop with few employees so the few do the work of the many...dream of the day I can take an image and just drop it in a browser and it separates automatically for me. and it does a 90% perfect job for me. is it here now but i do see it on the horizon. heck with the topic that is being talked about on this thread in the beginning would never been possible 5 years ago nor dreamt about. so keep it up I will also do some test with it this weekend I have some high end stuff I would like to see how it works. I know it is a beta and no seps but should be fun to just see.
On a side note to AA. I have your simple seps 1.2 and the more I have used it it does give very good results. It does have a great learning curve to it but the more I use it the easier it is so keep it up. and the last job i used with it had a crappy jpg file in a customer supplied power point file. was able to sep it very nicely.
As a small business shop with few employees so the few do the work of the many...dream of the day I can take an image and just drop it in a browser and it separates automatically for me. and it does a 90% perfect job for me. is it here now but i do see it on the horizon. heck with the topic that is being talked about on this thread in the beginning would never been possible 5 years ago nor dreamt about. so keep it up I will also do some test with it this weekend I have some high end stuff I would like to see how it works. I know it is a beta and no seps but should be fun to just see.
On a side note to AA. I have your simple seps 1.2 and the more I have used it it does give very good results. It does have a great learning curve to it but the more I use it the easier it is so keep it up. and the last job i used with it had a crappy jpg file in a customer supplied power point file. was able to sep it very nicely.
I think the 90% is a good point, at least for me. I can use other sep programs and still spend the time to separate art and get to something that's 90% ok. If I could just use the browser seps and they get me to the 90% without the other sep programs, it would save a ton of time. For me, most of my customers aren't ordering quantities high enough to justify the cost of professional separations, but for now if it comes down to choosing, I'd still choose the human pro seps for piece of mind over the programmatic seps and here's why.
I 100% believe that it is possible for a computer to sep an image just as well if not better than a human given the same art to start with. What hasn't really been touched on much here, is the color correction and bumps made to the art by the professional separator BEFORE seps are made. Therein lies a good amount of the talent in my opinion.
I work with programmers in my day job and I make stylistic changes to interfaces and TINY tweaks to the appearance of some elements a lot. The programmers all get sort of angry and ask, "Why did you change that, you said before you wanted X not Y?". My answer is usually, "It LOOKS better now.", to which I get this glazed look of disbelief. They think that if I did it once a certain way before, then that's the only correct way of doing it in the future. To change it later on down the road means I don't know what I'm doing. A lot of programmers don't understand art, or the objective nature of design, to find both qualities in one person, programmer and artist, is truly a great thing.
I 100% believe that it is possible for a computer to sep an image just as well if not better than a human given the same art to start with. What hasn't really been touched on much here, is the color correction and bumps made to the art by the professional separator BEFORE seps are made. Therein lies a good amount of the talent in my opinion.
...but for now if it comes down to choosing, I'd still choose the human pro seps for piece of mind...
you have deleted or edited my posts again... only a child would do that.
Not you Han the moderators 8) we are being moderated my friend.
I was finally able to upload a file
Jumping to my point, Im in. In a sep guy, but most all sep guys are artist as well, so I always have something to fall back on. Even on the art end, that's changing as well. Your right. Change is going to happen. I'm accustom to change. Your either with it or agin it, I'm with it.
Still tho, I say to you this. Math is indeed match. You can answer the 2+2 math question. My serious question is this. Do (you) know how to do math or do you know how to do good seps?
The reason I ask, is because there are a portion of the business of seps that match an handle all on its own. The other portion is the % if jobs that relies on the ever moving math number. (Eg). 2+2 is 4 on the surface, but your 2 shifts to 2.3, 3.75, etc, that 2 stays a 2 only in a confined equation. In printing, the 2 represents many changing things. A 6 color job in math only works one way. So while your math stays correct, your fixed program using math stays the same.
So your challenge is not just the math that you can handle, but to handle the separation variables like a human. Can you give it AI or artificial intelligence to "adjust to the confines of a particular situation, Do "you" know how to separate at a professional level?
That's not a dis. It's just a helpful question. I have read that you do color seps, but how much is your experience at accommodating all scenarios? For example, I know nothing about programming but pretty good at seps, yet I'm not perfect. Discharge for example is fairly to for me to accomadate my process to. The procedure changes (per job). So I find it very challenging for you to be able to create something to accommodate or "change" based on the job. Now I know you can put in a feature for every scenario you can come up with (within what you know about).
That has its limits for everyone. So in the end, you are relying on the customer to punch in all if the parameters for your program to do its job, that is great, providing they know what to look for as well.
My thoughts are, that while you may create an awesome or near perfect program, it relies on other people to tell it what to do or to put in the right math questions do that it can answer.
Just some thoughts.
colors in a 3D color space, where colors are linearly mixed between x colors, where x can be 1 or more, is over defined. What that means in mathelonian is that you can mix many colors in multiple ways perfectly accurately
Have to be honest here... And having to come to understand even far more in the last several weeks. The human eye or thinking is irrelevant in the digital color space the math is the math there is no way around that.
I mean common we all believed these seps could only be done with this special process for so many years when in reality we were all wrong all along..
I even loaded a copy of CorelDRAW 8 a 16 year old version of the program on my system and did perfect HSB seps in less than 5 minutes.People convert art to 4 color process in 1 min. How fast you do it, (is a selling point) to those that don't know or do'nt see the forest thru the trees.
Color adjustments and art tweaking are NOT color separating. Obviously file/art preparation work is often required as with any form of printing but preping is not separating.Don't forget art clean up/improvements. HSB nor DDsol does that. So that is one thing that is a benefit of using any pro separator. probably 60% of the jobs I sep already, need some clean up.
Don't forget art clean up/improvements. HSB nor DDsol does that. So that is one thing that is a benefit of using any pro separator. probably 60% of the jobs I sep already, need some clean up.
QuoteHave to be honest here... And having to come to understand even far more in the last several weeks. The human eye or thinking is irrelevant in the digital color space the math is the math there is no way around that.
True. agree as I stated with DDsol above. Still tho, even in HSB, let alone all of the other programs and procedures, Math is Math, but printing is printing and getting it to print...is different than getting it to look right on screen and breaking the colors down to spot colors "on screen".
No matter "how" you get a sep completed, you have to make it work. I know your new HSB script is a nice way to break out colors, as is a few other methods, but like choosing HSB over other methods, (for specific needs), on things that I do, HSB can be the BEST option thus far, (for those specific things). That use is very limited. I would not use it for all things. For many, is can be a great option to obtain color breakouts. Like DDsol has defined, THAT is really what should be created. Something that is more intuitive to where you can go in and make calculated adjustments or pre-sep adjustments and define how each area should be treated. not just color tweaking, but area tweaking. THIS would sell like hotcakes for the endless amount of incoming beginners and even the more seasoned. The Pro's may purchase deals to use the product on everything they do, to go through DDsols new program faster and more accurately...and pay him a discounted rate for being a MASS user. So they can still make a living at doing seps or add that into tho other things they offer like jpg to vector etc.QuoteI mean common we all believed these seps could only be done with this special process for so many years when in reality we were all wrong all along..
Not wrong. What you offer, is just another vehicle. Another means to an end result. Sure, we can agree that it does a good job. Lets even say that it's THE way to convert colors. ok. Still, you have to convert this HSB color space...to various PMS color seps and you STILL print out the colors. You do that either thru Corel or Photoshop and you're still using PMS colors to simulate the photo. This is called Simulated or "fake" process. Call it Simulated phot printing. I don't mins "waht" you name it" but it's still simulating an image thru blending pms colors with one another to create other colors. It's a simulated procedure or process.QuoteI even loaded a copy of CorelDRAW 8 a 16 year old version of the program on my system and did perfect HSB seps in less than 5 minutes.People convert art to 4 color process in 1 min. How fast you do it, (is a selling point) to those that don't know or do'nt see the forest thru the trees.
For the many who are not going to be shooting for awards, THIS is your market. They are the ones that will be gleaming at the idea of getting easy usable great seps (in 5 minutes). For those like Rick Roth, Mark Coudrey, Andy Anderson, etc. speed is not as important as how well it can be used on press accurately for the most efficient manor. How they get there is not important as accuracy and efficacy. For the average shop, you have a vast target audience.
lets take the well known 4 color process conversion method. it's truley printed in CMYK when using this conversion method. 80% of the work out there on colored garments is not cmyk, but many have used the CMYK conversion like they might a HSB conversion. Much of what a non printer thinks is a 4 color process image or photo is converted to what the industry has loosely called sim process. We all have converted art to CMYK (as one of our options to break down colors) since we started screen printing colors on shirts. Many have even used the RGB or even LAB channels to break down color.
The HSB has come to light by you as being another method and presents cleaner colors. That I do not disagree with. Here is the trouble I see with it. 1, it doesn't do (what DDsol) is talking about doing in his program). To boot, This "cleaner color" still does not translate a perfect print accurately when used on press due to the variables (to name just one), is the printing ink used that are in theory, (color contaminated). Even the WHITE is contaminated with tints of blue in some screen printing inks. This should tell you that using an HSB method is not going to present pure color (on press) and it's not that big of a improvement over using a RGB. LAB, or a CMYK conversion methods. Sure, it's cleaner. I agree with you on that whole heartedly. Ok. Back then to the same issues on press as the other methods present as well. The print variables. If we could take a monitor and place it on every tee shirt, then, THEN we would ahve great reason to use HSB.
To enhance that statement, Some artist still ONLY create ALL of their art in channels, never having the art ever touch a mode more than MULTI CHANNEL. No RGB, no CMYK, no LAB and no HSB other than a screen shot or merge to RGB so they can put it on a mock up garment.
Channel art and separating from those channels... is THE BEST way to achieve accurate color prints on press when comparing to the original art created. So to "say" that HSB is THE WAY and that using channels is an inaccurate method is just not true. HSB is "another way" to break color down. we don't even have HSB ink colors so the fact that your converting to HSB color space is kind of irrelevant isn't it? I mean, you do still end up assigning pms colors and printing out of Corel as a single color place that blends with other colors in that design...to simulate the look of the original... but like converting to CMYK, (it's a fast method) and better color space than using a CMYK conversion. The technique of pulling colors out using all of the other options...is just another process procedure.
When Mark Coudrey came out with HI FI printing, CMYK + (the added specially formulated inks) It looked brighter and cleaner when done right. Thats the kicker, the shop still needs to do everything right and with that type of printing, all parameters needed to be stellar. I liked it. It's popularity faded tho, I think due to needing to buy/pay a premium price for these specially formulated inks. (I'm guessing). Mark was on more of the right track pertaining to color space on print. You need ot look into developing a cost effective ink that works with your HSB process to be able to sell it as something more unique than it really is. Sure, you will make boo coo $ on your marketing techniques, selling it as "the way". But I think that if DDsol gets his going fast, buying a Simpleseps HSB converter script is going to be as interestingly beneficial as buying any other automated sep program.QuoteColor adjustments and art tweaking are NOT color separating. Obviously file/art preparation work is often required as with any form of printing but preping is not separating.Don't forget art clean up/improvements. HSB nor DDsol does that. So that is one thing that is a benefit of using any pro separator. probably 60% of the jobs I sep already, need some clean up.
1. I am not talking about a script or any other program I have clearly shown how this works manually.I may stand corrected. I assumed SimpleSeps was an automated product (now incorporating HBS) to separate colors from Corel. Yes, you've shown how it works. It works like any other procedure to break down colors manually, just using a lesser used technique due to taking advantage of the HSB color mode. It's a different angle of the same, but I do agree, HSB is cleaner color. Then we take it to print and we are back to the same sim process. Thats the only thing about the whole HSB being THE WAY. Thats my take on it. I'm sure you disagree. Now, is it a good product.. this SimpleSeps using HSB? Sure. I don't doubt that at all. Is it even better than any of the others? Some of them, I'm sure. Some of those others have better, more intuitive abilities but how much better it really is compared to the others is pretty much just a guess since I don't have all of them.
2. The channels in PS are mathematically incorrect we have clearly demonstrated that and if you need more evidence I can provide that also.I don't think you have. None that I've seen. I've watched your vids and didn't see where it's mathematically incorrect. I saw where some curves were shown in very extreme cases that would not be used in an actual procedure of separating or adjusting as a tool to signify how inaccurate it is (while you chime in to say, "so using channels is the wrong way to go". It wasn't convincing to me at all. Perhaps you can elaborate on that to show more clearly why channel seps are incorrect. In HSBSimpleseps seps, a 5% of a tone is the same as a 5 % tint on a channel separation. I see you make adjustments for don't gain. So does Channels. You can do that in may methods of the process.
3. Select color range and many PS tools are also mathematically incorrect I can prove that too.For the Color range tool tho, I bet you can prove that it's not a good or best choice of making selections. I don't recommend it either.
Therefore in the wrong color space with the wrong tools you need hours to manually recreate the art into separations.Not so. The time that it takes is all relative to the skill of the person and the job at hand. Some 6 color jobs take 15-30 min. others and most, take more, how much more is different for each job.
When you are in the correct color space using the correct math and tools hours become minutes perhaps even seconds.
When Mark Coudrey came out with HI FI printing, CMYK + (the added specially formulated inks) It looked brighter and cleaner when done right. Thats the kicker, the shop still needs to do everything right and with that type of printing, all parameters needed to be stellar.
Let us please try avoid complicating this topic.... Mojo is a myth it does exist in the digital color space it is pure math. In this space opinions are meaningless.
Let us not try to confuse people with misleading words to imply that other methods are not valid, such as " the wrong way to go, mathematically incorrect, Myths, Mojo. You can find many tuts on separating sim process on the net that show their process that they use for free.
What you don't see promoted is the old school way of building the art completely in channels and printing from those seps. How fast is that sep process? Well, by the time you're done with the art, you're done with the seps. So that is pretty fast and more accurate than any other method.Quote1. I am not talking about a script or any other program I have clearly shown how this works manually.I may stand corrected. I assumed SimpleSeps was an automated product (now incorporating HBS) to separate colors from Corel. Yes, you've shown how it works. It works like any other procedure to break down colors manually, just using a lesser used technique due to taking advantage of the HSB color mode. It's a different angle of the same, but I do agree, HSB is cleaner color. Then we take it to print and we are back to the same sim process. Thats the only thing about the whole HSB being THE WAY. Thats my take on it. I'm sure you disagree. Now, is it a good product.. this SimpleSeps using HSB? Sure. I don't doubt that at all. Is it even better than any of the others? Some of them, I'm sure. Some of those others have better, more intuitive abilities but how much better it really is compared to the others is pretty much just a guess since I don't have all of them.Quote2. The channels in PS are mathematically incorrect we have clearly demonstrated that and if you need more evidence I can provide that also.I don't think you have. None that I've seen. I've watched your vids and didn't see where it's mathematically incorrect. I saw where some curves were shown in very extreme cases that would not be used in an actual procedure of separating or adjusting as a tool to signify how inaccurate it is (while you chime in to say, "so using channels is the wrong way to go". It wasn't convincing to me at all. Perhaps you can elaborate on that to show more clearly why channel seps are incorrect. In HSBSimpleseps seps, a 5% of a tone is the same as a 5 % tint on a channel separation. I see you make adjustments for don't gain. So does Channels. You can do that in may methods of the process.Quote3. Select color range and many PS tools are also mathematically incorrect I can prove that too.For the Color range tool tho, I bet you can prove that it's not a good or best choice of making selections. I don't recommend it either.QuoteTherefore in the wrong color space with the wrong tools you need hours to manually recreate the art into separations.Not so. The time that it takes is all relative to the skill of the person and the job at hand. Some 6 color jobs take 15-30 min. others and most, take more, how much more is different for each job.QuoteWhen you are in the correct color space using the correct math and tools hours become minutes perhaps even seconds.
That might be true. Similar to how many convert to RGB or CMYK to use elements of those channels for separation, it can be very fast. Tools are tools, no matter where they come from.
Many people have been using the same tools you have shown in your vids for break down color. It's not a method that I prefer to use, but others have been and for many of them, it's all they know. For them, they complete a sep in 5, 10, 30 minutes as well. They just didn't do it in HSB sim process.
I have spent hours upon hours examining color and its math and science.
lets proceed peacefully and correct the industry....
In the blue corner we have the heavyweight champion! Revered for his sheer dexterity in the art of belligerence, and so far undefeated, yet slightly diminished! On the red corner we have the King of Kalm, with an endless stream of Tranquility his weapon of choice! Unmatched fairness and powerful patience are his tools of the trade!
Let the games begin!
Ps. HSB, Channels, Layers, blahblahblah. They are bytes in memory and there is no difference whatsoever between them, except PS likes to put color management in channels which it can't do in layers. But you can control that color management, so you can make them exactly the same. The argument is moot.
Besides, they're all the wrong color space. Sepping should be done in a linear space, be that Lab, XYZ or linear RGB, it's irrelevant. HSB is directly derived from (s)RGB in a linear fashion.And CMYK? Linear from "some" RGB (sRGB or Linear RGB): C1=255-R; M1=255-G; Y1=255-b; K=Max(C1,M1,Y1); C=C1-K; M=M1-K; Y=Y1-K;
Yum! Code! So, everybody's wrong. Who wins?
And about "Simulated Process": It's a Freakin' Farce!
"Sim Process" is stupid in the sense that Who The Hell is Actually Trying To Simulate Anything? We're printing Shirts! The name of the forum is "TheShirtForum" and Plastisol is the tool of choice. You can print in real process colors, YES, but when you are NOT printing with real process inks, it doesn't mean you're trying to simulate that! That's like saying your inkjet uses a "Simulated Monitor Separation System". WTF? It's totally different. It uses partitive mixing! CMY(K) is subtractive. RGB is additive. They are 3 different things and they can be related by formulas, yes, but they're different beasts!
I vote we from now on call CMYK printing "Simulated Tonal Spot Color Printing". I vote we call monitors "Real Life Visual Simulators". And when we print a car on a shirt, we call it a "Visual Vehicular Simulation".
I think, honestly, Calling it Sim Process or Tonal Spot, it doesn't matter. Plus, no one gives a crap where the seps come from: The printing is the same: Put ink on a screen and stroke. It's plastisol. It's a spot color. It's partitive mixing. It's a thing on its own and shouldn't be degraded by calling it "Simulated" Anything!
But it's water under the bridge. It has been established we call the printing of halftones using plastisol "Simulated Process". And so if we're going to accept that, then let's accept it. And how you get your seps doesn't change hwo you print it. Yes, SP may be a misnomer, but it's an accepted name nonetheless. Get over it.
Coudray, BTW, apparently (hearsay only, sorry) has done a bang-up job of formulating formulas that calculate color calculus. Calling him a guru reminds me of an Indian on a rug with incense wafting. I'm sure he knows his crap quite well. This makes him an expert, but not "the" expert.
HSB, for those who care to know, is a distorted color space. There's no smooth relation between it and RGB or sRGB. There is such a relation between L*a*b, RGB, sRGB (almost) and CIE XYZ. This is kind of important. A straight line drawn in the HSB space could have a corner in RGB, sRGB, XYZ and L*a*b. HSB is strongly related to L*u*v, but L*u*v does not have the discontinuity issues HSB does. Read more here ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV#Disadvantages[/url]). Read the whole section, or better yet, the whole page! Know your stuff. There's the Math, right there. No secrets. Just Real Understanding for All. No convincing needed! I mean, truth=truth is truth, no matter who says it or who tries to hide it.
That said, HSB seps will trip you up when you select a slightly pink red hue and a slightly red yellow hue, because the line between those colors cannot (ever) reach red (on the shirt). You can't mix ANY non-red to make red. Yet the HSB seps happily select the red and mark it as perfectly separated. That's bad... I mean, it's great but not the mathematically correct answer to the question: "How much of which inks do I need to make this color" for red.
Know what a color space is. It's 3D, so it requires a bit of spacial insight. Just be happy we only have 3 different kinds of color cones. If it were 4, it would have more dimensions than we're used to in our lives and it would be that much harder to grasp.
And don't forget: Put some Awesome into it. Awesome in, Awesome out!
Hey Tom, did you read the damn article? Are there any unfamiliar terms? If so, you had better read up on them! Note: wiki wiki has links you can click on to find out wtf they're talking about.
You must be a quick reader. It's like 15 pages of details and math. Shapes of spaces: Important! Especially note this ([url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Hsl-and-hsv.svg[/url]) image. Especially note the "Force RGBCMY into a plane" part. It's what causes the lines in the HSB circle, which should be a hexagon (also see that on that cool page ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV#General_approach[/url])!).
There's so much for you to learn, my friend. When enlightenment has found you, then you shall rule the Color Separation Universe. Until then, you are just an amazed bystander, dazzled by the beauty, able to speak of it, but not know it deeply. Deep magic comes with deep dedication. It also is the reward for personal effort. The reward is not, nor an it ever be, the admiration of the blind masses. They cannot see, cannot understand and can not appreciate deep magic. They shall write it off as fiction. Ah yes, all us puny humans fear all we do not know. This has caused bloodshed and destruction for eons and we're not done with it, yet we lull ourselves into believing we live the age of enlightenment today. Totally not. I think there was something called the Renaissance and they all thought they were so freaking enlightened then too. Self deceit, conceit.
Be quick to listen and slow to speak. That's the path to wisdom. The crowd will come and follow the wise, often the wise don't seek the crowd, yet it comes to them as a burden in their quest for truth. Those who seek the crowd, in their quest for recognition, often miss the wisdom by miles...