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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Prosperi-Tees on May 26, 2013, 02:51:57 PM
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I am starting research on air compressors so that when I can afford a new one I am well informed. My little 5hp Ingersol piston is gonna be sucking wind with the new 10 color challenger 1. So I have my eye on these, does anybody have any opinions on these? Keep in mind I have 208 single phase 200 amp power in the shop. I like the "semi quietness" of these compressors. Anything I should look at? I looked at screw compressors but most are 3 phase and the single phase ones seem underpowered in CFM.
http://www.eatoncompressor.com/catalog/item/504747/9381208.htm (http://www.eatoncompressor.com/catalog/item/504747/9381208.htm)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202075112?productId=202075112&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC%2d%5f%2dproduct%2d2%2d%5f%2d202075117%2d%5f%2d202075112%2d%5f%2dN#.UaJVdnbn-M8 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202075112?productId=202075112&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC%2d%5f%2dproduct%2d2%2d%5f%2d202075117%2d%5f%2d202075112%2d%5f%2dN#.UaJVdnbn-M8)
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Our first compressor was a Eaton. Great compressor! We actually still have it, and use it for extra CFM when needed. About 3 years after having it, it wouldn't turn over, called Eaton and in two days had a new motor at the door no questions. The problem actually turned out to be a bit of operator error ::) and was running fine in a day. Eaton never asked for the motor back, and never charged us(shhhhhhhhh).
By the way, anyone want to buy a never used 10hp motor? ;D
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Eaton is good, Champion is good, Ingersoll Rand I think is supposed to be good but I have heard complaints, could just be due to it being a popular brand though. Kaeser is awesome and that's what I would want to go with for a rotary screw compressor.
Probably not a good idea to go with one from home depot / lowes / harbor freight etc.
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You could just add a second IR to match the first one. Set one to come on 10-15 psi after the other.
Depending on the size of the existing tank you could also look at a second compressor/motor on a base plate, plum it into the existing tank. Again set one to come on after the other.
Looking at the specs, both look like Eaton pumps. Like Admiral said I would stay away from an off brand, stick with IR, Curtis, Kaeser or Quincy.
I know Quincy makes some nice packaged screw compressor/dryer single phase in the 25-50 cfm range. I'm sure others like Kaeser do also.
Don forget you still need a chiller/dryer.
What ever you get spend a little extra and get soft mounts for the compressor either machinery felt or rubber/steel. It will help deaden the noise of the compressor.
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Keep in mind I have 208 single phase 200 amp power in the shop. I like the "semi quietness" of these compressors. Anything I should look at? I looked at screw compressors but most are 3 phase and the single phase ones seem underpowered in CFM.
If you are going to have the compressor near you, do your self the favor and get a screw type. Sounds like you already know that though.
For the 3 phase issue, have you considered a phase converter? We used to have only single phase, and a phase converter works well in that situation. You can usually find them on craigslist and they really don't lose resale value once you use them. Might be worth looking into.... If where you are now is a place you think you will be for a long time, and there is 3phase somewhat close, you may be able to get the power company to upgrade you. Sometimes it costs a bit, but if you say the right things the cost can decrease quite fast. We went from a $20k 3 phase upgrade to a $0 upgrade.
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I had really bad luck with my ir. I have not ever has 6 consecutive months of operation and the service sucks. I don't have any advise on a good compressor but save yourself the headache and go past ir.
Matt
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Ok great advice. I really would like a screw compressor but will have to look into 3 phase. If that's not an option a single phase 7.5 hp screw puts out about 20 cfm compared to a 7.5 hp piston at 26 cfm. Do you guys think the screw would be a better choice still? The press I believe requires mid 20s to mid 30s running full bore which we will never run all heads at full speed.
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Ok great advice. I really would like a screw compressor but will have to look into 3 phase. If that's not an option a single phase 7.5 hp screw puts out about 20 cfm compared to a 7.5 hp piston at 26 cfm. Do you guys think the screw would be a better choice still? The press I believe requires mid 20s to mid 30s running full bore which we will never run all heads at full speed.
After checking out your floor plans you posted, GET A SCREW TYPE!!!! You are wayyyyyyy to close to not have one. It will end up driving you crazy to hear the other one turn on and off all the time.
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Yeah that's why I was looking at the quietist pistons I could find. What does running a 3 phase converter consist of and cost?
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Yeah that's why I was looking at the quietist pistons I could find. What does running a 3 phase converter consist of and cost?
With out getting real technical, it is a little motor basically. Single phase comes in one side 3phase comes out the other. Depending on the type/model there is somewhere between a 1.5-7% efficiency loss. Again, depending on the size and type you need, I have seen them run between $500 and $2K, I would say around $1200 you would be safe. But you can resell these suckers for what you bought them for without a problem. You can make your own, but I would not advise it unless you are rather handy and have a GOOD understanding of electrical components.
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I am not an electrician but a amp is an amp no matter single or 3 phase power, I would think if you had a item that required 45 amps single phase you would need 3ea 15 amp legs in a 3 phase scenario. Your 200 amp service may be a issue by the time you get 2 flash units a compressor,. outlets, lights, exposure unit and heating/air conditioning etc all wired up.
I have a Quincy 7.5 hp screw and for the money it was the best value. I think Kaiser is better unit but also +25% in cost. Good luck setting up the new press!
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When it comes to motors, 3 phase is more efficient, so there would be energy savings there. Not sure how much but there would be some. Now, using a converter you are bound to lose efficiency.
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The statistic I've heard is that 3ph is around 50% more efficient for motors--i.e. inductive, 'balanced' loads.
No savings, for instance, on a 3ph dryer (because the load is resistive)
Sounds like TCT has done some homework on converters--they should be reasonably efficient, but they're spendy. If you deal with one, make sure you or your electrician friend is up to speed on what all's inside, the 470V one I dealt with didn't have bleed resistors on the caps--easy death to a newb touching the wrong wire without checking it out...
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3 phase and converters aside, I agree you may have a issue with the 200Amp service. We had to upgrade, and we don't even run our air conditioner year round up here. Have you ever done a load test with everything you have now running?
Are you planning on staying in your current location long? Long enough to justify an electrical upgrade? I can walk you through how we had our power company cover our 3 phase upgrade cost, but I can almost guarantee they won't do it if you only have 200Amp service.
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Well I just signed the lease for 2 years. I was going to actually downsize the screen printing business and start another business in this same location. That other business did not pan out so we are ramping up operations and going full bore with where we are. I ran a javelin with a flash, compressor, lighting, fans and ac with 100 amp service so im pretty comfortable being with 200.
Compressor- 40amps
dryer- 60 amps
2 ir flashes - 50 roughly
small office ac- 20 amps
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Ok, so I went a little stalker-esk on you 8) and google mapped your location, looks like you guy have buried power lines which is not a huge help here. But It looks like it is somewhat industrial in the general area. Do you know if anyone around you has 3 phase? If it is close you can ask the power company for a quote on what a upgrade would run. They may want you or your "electrician" fill out a usage worksheet. The trick here is to make them think you are going to be drawing A LOT of power, that way they get their money for the upgrade back eventually. This may be hard with the 200 Amp service like I said. But when I filled out our worksheet, I took into consideration the load test I did with everything running which was like 189 Amps or something, took the max power our new press and flashes would take during peek, figured we would need a few more fans, another stereo, brighter lights, Probably another AC unit because it was going to be hotter now, you get the idea. Anyway my peek number was in the mid 300's, with my mean being upper 200's. That made the power company "sharpen their pencil" for the outside upgrade, $20K-> $0 ;D
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i didn't read all the replies so sorry if this has been mentioned. I JUST went through all this with my 10 color gauntlet 2 so it's fresh in my head. you said something about 20-30cfm with all heads working, it's not the heads that suck air, it's the indexer and lift cylinder. Without knowing your set up and true usage, I would look at the possibility of setting up another compressor as a secondary so you don't overload your main. twin compressors though a chiller, 3/4" line out to a "T" at press branching off to a 60 gal captive holding tank. the initial "whoosh" of air as it indexes will come out of your holding tank as well as the compressors tank so your compressor isn't constantly running....I may be wrong in this thinking though as I don't know your cfm needs.
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You will run out of space long before amperage. The only time it may be close is if everything turns on at the exact same time. Your dryer and flashes will not draw name plate amperage, only until they warm up. The press will draw about the same as a few light bulbs. Compressor only at start up which can be dampened with high output start and run capacitors. Like I said the last time at the old shop if you are a little gun shy about the load just turn one thing on at a time at the beginning of the day. Typically services will handle about 10% larger then the rated main breaker.
Our old shop, 200a service single phase. Press 20 amps, drew about 14, two quarts flashes 70a each for the first 2 or 3 flashes, once warmed up down to 27 each. Compressor 25 at start, 12a run. Then the two dryers, one 60a the other 20. Add the IR flash on the manual another 15. Then the heat in the office in the winter because they are cold another 30a. Throw in a couple of heat presses, lights, refrigerator and some other stuff, never had a problem.
If you have the power company come out see if they will give you 460v. Then you can cut your load in half, add a transformer to step down to 208 single for house keeping and have them add a 277v panel for lighting. ;) sorry couldn't resist.
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Chicago Pneumatic makes a very good screw for what used to be (haven't priced any out for custy's in a while) about 20-30% less than the big boys. Good compressors.
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Chicago Pneumatic makes a very good screw for what used to be (haven't priced any out for custy's in a while) about 20-30% less than the big boys. Good compressors.
That's what we have. Most bang for the buck out there I think. This is basically an atlas copco. Go with a screw not just for the noise but for the fact they can run under continuous load. Also, when you add it all up a new rotary screw/chiller combo is close in pricing to a new reciprocating type plus chiller.
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You will run out of space long before amperage. The only time it may be close is if everything turns on at the exact same time. Your dryer and flashes will not draw name plate amperage, only until they warm up. The press will draw about the same as a few light bulbs. Compressor only at start up which can be dampened with high output start and run capacitors. Like I said the last time at the old shop if you are a little gun shy about the load just turn one thing on at a time at the beginning of the day. Typically services will handle about 10% larger then the rated main breaker.
Our old shop, 200a service single phase. Press 20 amps, drew about 14, two quarts flashes 70a each for the first 2 or 3 flashes, once warmed up down to 27 each. Compressor 25 at start, 12a run. Then the two dryers, one 60a the other 20. Add the IR flash on the manual another 15. Then the heat in the office in the winter because they are cold another 30a. Throw in a couple of heat presses, lights, refrigerator and some other stuff, never had a problem.
Turning everything on in phases also saves you on billing if your power company bases you billing off of the spike you pull for the 24 hour period. Edison here does that. It can get expensive when all the flashes, compressor, lights, dryers, and everything else gets turned on at the same time.
If you have the power company come out see if they will give you 460v. Then you can cut your load in half, add a transformer to step down to 208 single for house keeping and have them add a 277v panel for lighting. ;) sorry couldn't resist.
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All seriousness, most of your load is inductive and 3p would only benifit the compressor and that would only save a few amps at best.
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Is it technically ok to run 40ft of rubber air hose to the press? my neighbor is a plumber and could "hook" with copper runs and valves and flex etc etc. For $500. Is it worth it?
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Is it technically ok to run 40ft of rubber air hose to the press? my neighbor is a plumber and could "hook" with copper runs and valves and flex etc etc. For $500. Is it worth it?
Gerry, why not look into this system?
http://www.rapidairproducts.com/ (http://www.rapidairproducts.com/)
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Is it technically ok to run 40ft of rubber air hose to the press? my neighbor is a plumber and could "hook" with copper runs and valves and flex etc etc. For $500. Is it worth it?
Gerry, why not look into this system?
[url]http://www.rapidairproducts.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.rapidairproducts.com/[/url])
It is a little late for that. Tech coming Monday and I have 2 options.
#1 Put the compressor close to the press and use my existing rubber air hose. (not concerned with the noise)
Electrical run would be more costly as it is furthest away from the panel.
#2 Put the compressor away from the press but would cost more in an air system.
Electrical run will be cheaper as it would be closer to the panel
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Keep in mind I have 208 single phase 200 amp power in the shop. I like the "semi quietness" of these compressors. Anything I should look at? I looked at screw compressors but most are 3 phase and the single phase ones seem underpowered in CFM.
If you are going to have the compressor near you, do your self the favor and get a screw type. Sounds like you already know that though.
For the 3 phase issue, have you considered a phase converter? We used to have only single phase, and a phase converter works well in that situation. You can usually find them on craigslist and they really don't lose resale value once you use them. Might be worth looking into.... If where you are now is a place you think you will be for a long time, and there is 3phase somewhat close, you may be able to get the power company to upgrade you. Sometimes it costs a bit, but if you say the right things the cost can decrease quite fast. We went from a $20k 3 phase upgrade to a $0 upgrade.
I totally agree, a screw type is the way to go. Our`s is just a few meters away from where we load and unload. And if you ever consider getting a second auto you can always upgrade a screw type to a more powerful compressor and run two automatics of it. All it takes is to get some parts ordered and installed .
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We have a Sullair 50H screw and a Curtis 25H screw running in tandem which in turn pipe the air through a system of 3 chiller/dryers such that the air is bone dry. It's a little complex but the whole system is hosed separately outside the bldg. Point is we got all this used from a very reputable compressor tech who did the install. So if you're careful you might look into that route. (Consulting a tech that is)
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Is it technically ok to run 40ft of rubber air hose to the press? my neighbor is a plumber and could "hook" with copper runs and valves and flex etc etc. For $500. Is it worth it?
I've got 3/4" black iron coming out of my compressor into my chiller, then 50' of 1" flex hose coming out of my chiller into a "T" , one line into my press, the other into a captive tank. there's another line to my other machine is in there someplace too. The airline also acts like a holding tank so it can't hurt to have it longer....you get a bit more capacity out of a 80 gal tank, not much -but it's something.
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Is it technically ok to run 40ft of rubber air hose to the press? my neighbor is a plumber and could "hook" with copper runs and valves and flex etc etc. For $500. Is it worth it?
Gerry, why not look into this system?
[url]http://www.rapidairproducts.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.rapidairproducts.com/[/url])
It is a little late for that. Tech coming Monday and I have 2 options.
#1 Put the compressor close to the press and use my existing rubber air hose. (not concerned with the noise)
Electrical run would be more costly as it is furthest away from the panel.
#2 Put the compressor away from the press but would cost more in an air system.
Electrical run will be cheaper as it would be closer to the panel
Seems like you were dicking around with the wrong stuff. :p
Can you plumb it cheap and temp then get that system to do it right?
If not, time to pay the piper.. Hoses are cheaper than wires.
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When we moved in to this building, I ran the Rapid Air pipe. Hundreds and hundred of feet of pipe feeding Three autos, one manual, Ink pumps, stretching tables, CTS, and drops for plain old air nozzles. Did it all in a weekend by myself. A lot of different size pipes. So damn easy. Costs more, yes, but less than a plumber. I can add drops anywhere in the system, or move them, too. Supposed to be more efficient because it's polished inside, but I can't verify that. (all that pipe equals extra holding capacity). When we were flooded in out last building and forced to move, we took out all the pipe and fittings that weren't under water. Removed and reused A LOT of pipe and fitting. So SO easy to use. I know that wasn't the question, but as user of the stuff, I thought I'd share.
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Firestone makes a rubber air hose that's about $0.75 a foot or less for 1" diameter.
That's what I used at the old shop and it came with us to the new one. I don't know that
copper would do the same.
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Get the compressor away from the press would be my vote. Copper to the compressor is gonna cost more than air line of any variety I'd reckon and even the noise of a screw comp is annoying to work around.
The Rapid Air is really excellent. You can bend it around anything. Only downer is the fittings are obscenely expensive but I bet you could find some compression fittings for Pex-Al-Pex that would work with it, since that's all it is.
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Looks like I am going to cheap out and get some rubber air hose for now.
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Make sure you get at least 3/4" ID, I think they even recommend 1" for presses like yours.
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So the fitting coming out of the air compressor is 1/2". Do you just get 1/2" to 3/4" adapters out of the press and 34" to 1/2" reducer at the press, correct?
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If you have 1/2" connections at each end, I doubt you NEED 3/4" hose, but you shouldn't have any problem getting the fittings you need. We have a 3/4" hose here with 1/2" fittings, that's how it came, and worked fine in a pinch with adapters for a 3/4" inlet press.
Is that a 6/8 you're getting? Haven't seen anything smaller than a 3/4" NPT in on M&R stuff, but I haven't seen any of their smaller stuff either.
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Is that a 6/8 you're getting? Haven't seen anything smaller than a 3/4" NPT in on M&R stuff, but I haven't seen any of their smaller stuff either.
Cool, board ate my post.
It's my recollection of the same thing Foo, hence my recommendation.
It's my understanding that in terms of using 1/2" fittings on 3/4" pipe, that any restriction
equates to decreased throughput. As for actually needing full throughput I don't know.
Reservoirs come into play as well. I'm not an engineer, just play one on TV.
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I need to get a gig playing engineer on TV, I bet it pays better than doing it in this armchair. ;D
My experience was that I couldn't get the 8/10 to slow down with eight air heads on full speed with the hose like the one EB described, (3/4 hose, 1/2 fittings) although if you have an air index that may be a little different deal. I'd cinch it down though, I wouldn't wanna get whipped by a blown one emptying a 120 gal receiver... ;)
I looked into a little of the science behind this--a smaller fitting than hose makes sense in most applications.
The amount of CFM that will travel through an orifice or fitting of a certain size is far larger than how many CFM will travel through any sizable length of hose that same size. And the large reservoir in the base comes into play as well, I'm sure.
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Hmmm interesting. It is an 8/10 all air
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I got whipped by a 6mm nylon hose the other day. Unruly hose is no joke.
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If your just doing something to get set up get a 50' air hose (red type contractors use for jack hammers and such) with Chicago type ends and two Chicago x 1/2npt adapters, it should be less then $100 for everything you need. The 1/2" reducers should not affect the flow or delivery in your case.
You should have some sort of flex line between the compressor and chiller.
1/2" air pipe (black iron or copper) will deliver 18 cfm up to 75' @ 100 psi. 3/4" will deliver 30 cfm up to 100' Each fitting in a system is equal to 5' of pipe.
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If your just doing something to get set up get a 50' air hose (red type contractors use for jack hammers and such) with Chicago type ends and two Chicago x 1/2npt adapters, it should be less then $100 for everything you need. The 1/2" reducers should not affect the flow or delivery in your case.
You should have some sort of flex line between the compressor and chiller.
1/2" air pipe (black iron or copper) will deliver 18 cfm up to 75' @ 100 psi. 3/4" will deliver 30 cfm up to 100' Each fitting in a system is equal to 5' of pipe.
That's just what I did. Setup for $75