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General => General Discussion and ??? => Topic started by: Dottonedan on May 25, 2013, 03:00:11 PM
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It's interesting how differently people see things. I've seen people advertise a printed tee price with black included in the cost. THey market it as if black is not a color so it's included in the cost.
I guess if you were not using at least black, then you wouldn't be printing at all. ?? So some people do think that black is just a given. It's true. I asked about it. Thats what they feel. It's all interesting.
It's like some people charge for their learning curves. I once sent out a separation job (sep was completed) I just needed film printed for my customer. This very well known sep house wanted to charge me (another) 35.00 per color...because she didn't know how to print out channels straight from photoshop.
ME: Really? Ok, So you haven't done that yet. Let me walk you through it.
HER: Oh. Well, I still need to charge extra for this.
ME: Really? you wanna charge me "extra" for me to show you something different?
Sheeesh. Never called that person again.
This is just some thoughts of stuff that bugs me I guess.
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My prices include one color one side, ( but not limited to black).
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It's not a color, you both know black is a neutral. ;D
Considering the prices of quality colors in ink, it may be a rather savvy marketing technique--make us pay more for that super bright green, get an upcharge.
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a lady customer about 3 years ago , actually she was never an actual customer because she insisted that black and white were not true colors and we should not be charging for the application od non-colors in our pricing. I suggested to her if she could get my non-color black and white substance gallons sent to me for free because they are not real ink colors I might be inclined to agree with her.
She continued to insist that black and white were not colors and my prices should not include application of black and white non-color work.
At that point it was over with me I just wanted her OUT so I agreed with her that black and white were not real colors however it was necessary for us to charge her for the technology that allowed us to apply non - colors to tee shirts so they would be seen in the visible spectrum. She never gave us an aorder......she must have painted herself black or white because I never saw her again ;D .
mooseman
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;D
That made my day Mooseman.
Cheers.
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It's interesting how differently people see things. I've seen people advertise a printed tee price with black included in the cost. THey market it as if black is not a color so it's included in the cost.
Another true life screen printing adventure, over the years I have had several well educated graphic art professionals from the offset/ad agency "we know everything" world question charges for white ink/screens printing on colored t-shirts. Apparently white is not a color either! 8)
I guess that's what happens when your entire world involves starting out with perfect enamel coated white paper as your substrate.!
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I've always enjoyed how common it is for folks to forget that the average desktop printer doesn't have white ink, but rather, depends on the paper to provide that.
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It's been a while since I took color theory, but IIRC, they aren't considered 'colors' in the same way that things that reflect specific wavelengths. Though I have no idea why that would lead someone to think that they don't require ink to print or that black and white ink are perfectly made without any sort of addition of color. IE blue in white or rich blacks.
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a lady customer about 3 years ago , actually she was never an actual customer because she insisted that black and white were not true colors and we should not be charging for the application od non-colors in our pricing. I suggested to her if she could get my non-color black and white substance gallons sent to me for free because they are not real ink colors I might be inclined to agree with her.
She continued to insist that black and white were not colors and my prices should not include application of black and white non-color work.
At that point it was over with me I just wanted her OUT so I agreed with her that black and white were not real colors however it was necessary for us to charge her for the technology that allowed us to apply non - colors to tee shirts so they would be seen in the visible spectrum. She never gave us an aorder......she must have painted herself black or white because I never saw her again ;D .
mooseman
Does that means that white shirts with black prints should be free?
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Isn't white the compilation of "all" of colors of the spectrum?
So she is getting way more than her monies worth
by only being charged for two, black and white!
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I'm asked this every once in awhile. WTF do you mean is black a color? Idiots.
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Not arguing you shouldn't charge for the application of ink, 'color' 'neutral' or whatever.
I don't know about you guys, but I charge for clear, is that a color? :)
But as to the term 'color' as it's normally applied, I think no hue=no color. In the end it's all perception anyway though--a perfectly balanced grey will turn violet when it's against yellow, right? All about your point of reference, I guess.
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-a perfectly balanced grey will turn violet when it's against yellow, right? All about your point of reference, I guess.
Here's a good definition on that subject. The lower parts pertain more to what you're referring to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color))
This explains black is the absence of color...but exist and is defined (as a color).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black#Optics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black#Optics)
How ink Co's manufacturer blacks and various whites should be a whole different definition. We know they use other colors to create blacks and white aslo. Wilflex for example has a white that can be found to have a slight blue cast to it.
Some printers create a generic black they use on various projects that look to be more of a "dirty black" This is from left over inks pre mixed that most likely will not be used again. Large shops can mix up a 5 gallon bucket of this stuff over a few months and re-use it on jobs that might not require a true black.
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If one believes this definition from the online Merriam Webster Dictionary, then black is considered a color by printer and toner manufacturers
Definition of MONOCHROME
: a painting, drawing, or photograph in a single hue
— mono·chro·mic adjective
— mono·chrom·ist noun
Origin of MONOCHROME
Medieval Latin monochroma, from Latin, feminine of monochromos of one color, from Greek monochrōmos, from mon- + -chrōmos -chrome
First Known Use: 1662
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What I learned in art class was that black and white are neutrals which has already been stated. Doesn't matter what it looks like to me, if it goes through a screen onto a substrate, it's a print. Priced per screen.
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-a perfectly balanced grey will turn violet when it's against yellow, right? All about your point of reference, I guess.
Here's a good definition on that subject. The lower parts pertain more to what you're referring to.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color)[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color))[/url]
This explains black is the absence of color...but exist and is defined (as a color).
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black#Optics[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black#Optics[/url])
How ink Co's manufacturer blacks and various whites should be a whole different definition. We know they use other colors to create blacks and white aslo. Wilflex for example has a white that can be found to have a slight blue cast to it.
But if it has a blue cast, it's a very light blue, not a white, right? For all intensive purposes in screen printing, white and black are colors, because they're never ACTUALLY white and black. Easy to combine the two and see the very non-neutral grey that results nearly every time.
I wasn't thinking so much metamerism so much as why butchers put lettuce in their meat cases--i.e. the eye's tendency to change the intensity of a color based on being next to the complement--like that a dull red steak will look much more fresh when it's next to something green.
As far as the black thing goes, the first sentence of the page on Black says:
"In the visible spectrum, white reflects light and is a presence of all colors, but black absorbs light and is an absence of color."
Again, color or no, it goes through a screen we charge for it-just always interested in how other people 'talk color'. :)
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I don't think "is black a color?" is the right question. Black is the absence of light, so, no light, no color... but now ink comes into the equation, so yes, it is a color, but is it truly black? I say no, but an incredible simulation...
Steve
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I had a customer tell me once that black and white was not a color, so I went to the black and brought the two gals up front and set them on the counter, sometimes you just have to show people instead of trying to tell them. I really can't see how people would not think those aren't real colors, but in the same breathe they say, hey you got the John deer green or some off the wall color they have made up in there heads :o...me never heard of that color where you get it from, them Oh that's what I call it, but black and white are not colors LOL.
Darryl
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Nice Darryl!
I need to get my printer in on this conversation. He HATES color names. He's like "it's not hibiscus, it's PINK!" LOL
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Nice Darryl!
I need to get my printer in on this conversation. He HATES color names. He's like "it's not hibiscus, it's PINK!" LOL
One of my favorites for made up names was "Deep, hot Rasberry pink" Rasberry pink? Does the Trix rabbit know about this?
Steve
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THis reminds me. we had a "color issues" once when I was reping a printer and they had an artist on staff that had been complaining about the color names that a specific buyer had been giving colors. They were a bit odd...but what erked me about the artist complaining, was the fact that this buyer did indeed also provide pms colors.
So, for example, she gave a color name of (oh, i donno, lets call it Limonade green pms 389). So the artist at the print shop again, complained...and I'm thinking whats it matter if they call it Snot green or Limonade green? It's flipp'n green with a pms call out. So you already know for sure what they want. Sheesh. So on the order form, I added in Snot Green, pms 389. She was not as entertained as I was but it was funny. ;D
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For me if it is ink it is a color. If it requires a screen to print it thats a color. Regardless of the definition if it takes a screen to put it on a shirt it is charged as a color.
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Nice Darryl!
I need to get my printer in on this conversation. He HATES color names. He's like "it's not hibiscus, it's PINK!" LOL
One of my favorites for made up names was "Deep, hot Rasberry pink" Rasberry pink? Does the Trix rabbit know about this?
Steve
OK, Limonade and Snot Green are great, but Deep, hot Raspberry pink takes the cake. Actually, it SOUNDS like cake.
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Around here we get the John Deer Green or Grass Green or they might say I want blue, we say which color blue, they say you know the regular blue etc.... until I say royal and show them LOL
Darryl
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I like "sky blue" when I look out and see gray! lol!
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Actually, John Deere green is easy--PMS 355. The huge multinationals make it easy for us to nail down colors with silly *corporate* names. ;D
Sometimes customers make it easier when they already saw a color on a popular logo they like.
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Next time someone tries to argue with you that black and white are not colors and should be free. Ask them how much it costs them to paint their walls white or black. Hell ask them if painters paint for free if it is white walls or whatever they are painting. I would also think black and white cars should be discounted from their colored versions since they didn't have to actually paint these cars.
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It's pretty much a tech question. We learned in science class that Black is the absence of light and White is the presence of all color (which is why a prism breaks up the white light during the day, and not a damn thing at night.) So, in that sense, they really aren't colors, BUT, since we have to push something through the mesh and onto the shirts, they are "colors". We charge for impressions, for the person with a technical hair across his or her ass... potato/ potahto, tomato, tomahto I guess
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(which is why a prism breaks up the white light during the day, and not a damn thing at night.)
Sounds like you spent too much time figuring this out. :)
So, in that sense, they really aren't colors, BUT, since we have to push something through the mesh and onto the shirts, they are "colors". We charge for impressions, for the person with a technical hair across his or her ass... potato/ potahto, tomato, tomahto I guess
I would argue though that white IS a color, being all colors. Green is just a combination of Yellow and Blue.
Then you get into the subtractive vs additive discussion when it comes to paint/ink. No object (other than light bulbs and such) generate light. They only filter/reflect light. So in a sense, none of them are colors, or they are ALL colors, depending how you want to look at it.
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took me years to figure out why the prism wouldn't work at night... (I thought it was faulty) Note to self; try to separate the colors out of white ink with a prism...::)
Steve
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Was working new construction/rental maintenance some years ago...was laying a floating floor out in the kitchen when my boss stopped by to check on my progress...He noticed that the tenant had painted his living room walls battleship Gray. When asked why he did such a thing, he told my boss that he had done some research, and had determined that the fugly Gray made his surround system sound better. I was SO glad I was on my hands and knees, because it was all I could do not to fall down...After ruminating/giggling on this for a while, it occurred to me that the guy was (unbeknownst to him) on the cusp of a whole new science...I dubbed it "Chromataccoustics"...personally, I thought the gray walls made the stereo taste funny.... :o
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Was working new construction/rental maintenance some years ago...was laying a floating floor out in the kitchen when my boss stopped by to check on my progress...He noticed that the tenant had painted his living room walls battleship Gray. When asked why he did such a thing, he told my boss that he had done some research, and had determined that the fugly Gray made his surround system sound better. I was SO glad I was on my hands and knees, because it was all I could do not to fall down...After ruminating/giggling on this for a while, it occurred to me that the guy was (unbeknownst to him) on the cusp of a whole new science...I dubbed it "Chromataccoustics"...personally, I thought the gray walls made the stereo taste funny.... :o
He obviously misunderstood the finding that a nice neutral gray went well with the "Blues"