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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: screenprintguy on May 14, 2013, 06:10:50 PM
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In another discussion I had mentioned that CCI had us test their HXT emulsion with discharge printing. I have to say, even though we had gone through a few gallons of it and were really happy with how awesome a non-diazo emulsion with no hardener needed worked with discharge printing, we are reeeeally happy with it now after the beating we put on a discharge under base screen over the past 3 days. We have had the same under base screen on press for the past 3 days, numerous scrub downs, between runs where we took some extended breaks, water wipe downs inside outside the screen, spray opener on it a few times where discharge gunked up during someones break because they didn't wipe it out good enough. 40psi double stroking with discharge white, and clear discharge, at least 3,500 strokes. I pulled the screen out of the machine a little bit ago for a clean out and the emulsion looks as fresh as when it was first imaged. No diazo, no hardener, $47 bucks a gallon and quick exposures, pretty dang awesome stuff!!!!!!!! Also, for CTS users, it images very very nice on the I-Image CTS, and even with an 81 mesh screen, the image edges are way cleaner than other emulsions I've used on a heavy mesh count like that. Pretty awesome stuff. I'm so glad Robert from CCI came here and pushed me to test this stuff. It's my all in one emulsion now.
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Didn't you get similar results from the Aquasol HV/P or am I thinking of someone else? I thought I had found a great emulsion in the HVP without needing to add diazo or post expose for DC printing and now it seems like there may be better options. I really like the HVP though, it burns so quick and I haven't heard of anyone breaking it down on press with DC jobs under several thousand pieces. I'm just wondering if I should continue to test emulsions or not, just thinking out loud hoping someone might help me decide.
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Hvp worked but wasn't holding up as well as nova for us. Then cci gave us a gal of HXT to test and I'm glad we did. From what I'm told, hvp needs light like your exposure unit can give to really hold up. I can say without a doubt, for us the HXT is out performing hvp.
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What type of exposure unit are you using with the HXT. We have a quart here that you're making me want to test -- but we've been tossing around the idea of a new exposure unit to get in to the playing field of using nova and/or wr-14 as our standard emulsion so I don't have to worry about screen breakage with 3,500 piece discharge jobs, and to just keep one standard emulsion. The drawback of the WR14 is the short pot life (I don't want to have to worry about breaking down the emulsion into smaller containers to partially add diazo!), however, and I don't know what the pot life would be for NOVA but the HXT is good for a year apparently. If I could get screens to hold up indefinitely with our current 1k unit with HXT on 4k+ dc jobs, then that would make the decision to get a better exposure unit a moot point.
Last month, we used the Aquasol HV (no diazo but used hardener (I think perm-x maybe) for a 4k discharge job and one screen gave while wiping the underside down. Other than that, the screens looked somewhat beat up at the end, but were still holding up. However, I'd like to not have to worry at all about screen breakage on jobs like this. It seems, given your experience, like I could get away with 4k piece discharge jobs with the HXT without any problem, BUT what kind've exposure unit are you using - that could make all the difference in the world. Again, we only have a 1k watt unit.
One thing about the NOVA, at least according to an ebay description, was that it has something like 59% solids -- that's right up the alley for someone like Alan who loves hammering out one hit whites with plastisol. But, I don't have special beta ninja squeegees like him at my disposal, so I'm not stuck on having to go NOVA, but that's a nice solid count -- BUT, the price point for the HXT is even better than the Aquasol HV(P). Anywho, thanks!
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Let's put this into perspective:
Currently exposing wr-14's 2/1 coated on 150s mesh. Started it, walked to my desk, ate my lunch, just walked back there and it's still exposing.
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Tri light 3k. 300 lu on this unit is clocking about 90 or so seconds. Shooting 2 at once
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i would really look at a new unit. check out the baby joe LED unit or whatever it's called.
i switched to a 7.5k unit and wouldn't change it(unless I wanted to get into LEDs. the power saving would be good for us.
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I remember Pierre doing some testing with it. It seems new to the industry (?) - anyone have experience working with ldtronix and their support? Anyone have a baby joe 2000? Any comments? It seems like the unit is just shy of accommodating 25x36's.
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honestly for me right now, the way I image on the CTS, put two in the exposure unit while imaging two more screens, after the exposure is done, soak those two in the development tank, repeat steps and pull first soaking set to rinse in the wash out. The exposure unit is more waiting on me to feed it, than me waiting on it to be done. Now, let me mention, that 90 second exposure is for screens we plan to use with discharge printing, if we load it with screens set to use for plastisol, the exposure is around 50 seconds. HXT has a nice wide latitude on exposure time. I like to hit them longer for the water based printing, and so far it's the most awesome emulsion, no diazo, no hardener, no post expose, under 50 bucks a gal. I would have stayed with nova till I found this one. We got such a nice deal on the 3k tri-light and I was instructed on how to lower the screen holding rack closer to the bulb to get a nicer exposure, it's perfect for our system right now, but I do think in the future we will look at the 6k unit and upgrade. I've learned that any of the other units on the market that use the big covered bulb, say like the richmond unit, advertise, 7k or 10k, but that is what the lamp, "inside" the housing is releasing, they don't tell you that they light is actually knocked way down from the external housing and turns a 10 lamp into a 6k actual output. Still, I had a richmond, they are a beast. I just wasn't happy with service when we starting having some issues and really needed fast contact. I really like the way the tri-lights are built and their functionality is really nice too, so I'm pretty sure we will stay in that scope, just not sure if it will be a 6k tri-light, or the free standing 6k nu arc. Either way, Im really happy with our set up for now, and the HXT emulsion is just awesome stuff and awesome price.
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What kind of detail are you guys getting from the HXT compared to WR-25 & 14?
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I am gaining better detail, as nice as I got with nova, nova exposes very slow, which I think has alot to do with it's long lasting final stencil, as well as it's detail. This HXT is also a little slower which I feel the same thing as the nova. I'm not running 10,000 peice orders here, my average discharge order goes from 300 to 1,000 pieces. When orders come in over those numbers I will add diazo to the hxt which cci says will last very long and still hold serious detail. We just did an 8 color all discharge sim process job last week and held dots down to 2% on 230 mesh. It's awesome stuff with a low cost. Now, I'm also using a CTS so that captured percentage has to do with the direct to screen imaging, but I would imagine with a good vacuum draw down you will still have super clean detail. Contact your local CCI Rep, ours is Robert Luca, he gave me a gallon to test, and that's all it took for me to go shop wide with HXT. Very quick reclaim too. 30 seconds in the dip tank or it will all come off and settle in your tank lol. Any other emulsions we used that needed hardener, diazo ect had the standard 2-3 mins in the dip tank and still came off like a skin. Not having to harden this stuff it just liquifies in the tank.
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Every time I think I've settled in on a DC emulsion a new one comes out that's just a little better than the last. I'm glad Mike is the guinea pig on this stuff and not me. I've got a 2800 pcs DC UB job coming up so I need a gallon of CCI Premium D-base and the HXT emulsion and I hope it works out. If I screw up a bunch of shirts again the wife is going to kill me. And she reminds us every day about the next DC job coming and how we better have things figured out. Thanks for the info Mike, this is why this forum is the best. I didn't have to waste $200 testing emulsion so I owe you something in return.
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Alan, you know the struggles we had finding that emulsion that worked for us. I figured I had to just find out for myself. Robert Luca from CCI said that the HXT should hold up without hardener or diazo up to 3500 pieces, and if planning for higher numbers, adding diazo will lock you in for the long haul. Your Richmond should expose the crap out of it awesome. Just another bit of info, I am coating 2 over 2 with the monster max scoop coater. I do a 10 mississippi count as I'm coating, "i know weirdo", to always make sure I'm getting awesome penatration. I picked that up from a Greg Kitson article in an older issue of Impressions I found in the crapper =). Sorry Greg, but your lessons come in handy in there lol. Let us know how it all works out Alan!
Mike
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I've learned that any of the other units on the market that use the big covered bulb, say like the richmond unit, advertise, 7k or 10k, but that is what the lamp, "inside" the housing is releasing, they don't tell you that they light is actually knocked way down from the external housing and turns a 10 lamp into a 6k actual output.
So basically Alan's exposure unit sucks is what you're saying. I can read between the lines. ;D
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Every time I think I've settled in on a DC emulsion a new one comes out that's just a little better than the last. I'm glad Mike is the guinea pig on this stuff and not me. I've got a 2800 pcs DC UB job coming up so I need a gallon of CCI Premium D-base and the HXT emulsion and I hope it works out. If I screw up a bunch of shirts again the wife is going to kill me. And she reminds us every day about the next DC job coming and how we better have things figured out. Thanks for the info Mike, this is why this forum is the best. I didn't have to waste $200 testing emulsion so I owe you something in return.
Alan, does this job have halftones? If not, blast the heck out of the screens during exposure and with either with HVP or apparently HXT, you'll probably be good -- I'd add hardener on a job like that regardless of the emulsion used just for insurance, until you have time to test. I'd imagine screenprintguy (Mike?) and you would get similar results with the hxt since you both have very good exposure units, provided you're using similar dc inks. My $.02. Let us know how it goes.
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the 8 color all discharge sim process job we did last week, no hardner, but, it was 600 pieces not close to 3,000. I think 123 is right Alan, until you are settled in with the HXT, wipe some harder, but if you are truly in testing confidence like I've been, I'm just pushing to see where the breaking point is. Thankfully, we havn't hit it. Tomorrow I'll be loading up a screen that we've already done about 2,500 impressions with as a discharge base screen. It looks brand new as if it was just burned. HXT, no hardener, I'll let you know how it holds up, but I am pretty sure from the way it looks, it will be fine for the next run. One thing that is cool, because so little pre-printing steps go into the use of this emulsion, if you have a bad screen, pop one, ect, it's a quick fix in down time. We ripped a screen last week in that sim pro discharge job, loaded in the cts, re printed it, burned, rinsed, blew out with air, put in the dehumidifier room with a fan on it and had it back on press back up and running in around 30 mins. If you are using Kiwo wr blue block out, it bonds really nice to the hxt as well, it peels off of the hvp and ulano, just a lil extra bonus, we love the Kiwo wr blue block out.
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Mike, thank you for the input and sharing you results. Will test it when I order next. We only use 2gals/month in emulsion.
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I was going to start a new topic but it won't hurt to bring this one back up to the top. I had some observations and a few questions about the HXT and WB/DC emulsions in general.
I know there has been a good bit of discussion on the different emulsions we are all using with discharge printing but doing a search I noticed there are bits and pieces scattered about and this thread for the HXT. There is the Aquasol HV/P, Xenon Nova and the CCI HXT for starters, along with the WR-25 and WR-14 so there is lot's of posts about them holding up for long DC runs. I don't mind doing the extra work to get an HVP screen ready for a DC run, but lately I'm not available every time there is a question out back and I'd love to move to something that takes very little thought and it's just coat and burn and use. I got a crew now that is just about incapable of their own thoughts and decision making and although I should probably not work around my guys being, for a lack of a better term, "slow" but I know from experience that making things as simple as possible is never a bad thing as long as things work right. I want an emulsion that is as simple as opening up, pooring in the scoop coater, and going to press like it's a plastisol job. It needs to work on plastisol and DC without the extra steps that my two screen guys can't seem to remember since we only do a DC run every 2-3 weeks. So this is squeezing the HVP out of the discussion and leads me to the HXT.
I noticed something when I started looking at the HXT spec sheet. CCI doesn't say anything about the HXT being for waterbased or discharge inks, only UV, solvent and plastisol. Most of us on this forum know it's held up better for DC than any of the other emulsions I listed above since Mike has pretty much done that research and has given his thoughts on it. I don't feel like I need to do any comparison testing because I trust those that do more DC than we do.
So that leads me to this: Should we be looking for emulsions that are made for UV & solvent based inks? The emulsions that we've all tried that "say" they are for WB and DC don't hold up as well as the one that doesn't say it's for those applications. I've used 4 different emulsions that were specifically made for WB/DC that do hold up for a while, but break down too quickly for my needs. The HXT doesn't need anything mixed in, it's cheap, it holds up to everything very well without hardener or post exposure, yet the company who makes it doesn't tell us it should even be used by us textile guys. Is that an overlook on their part or what? Is there something in it's makeup that makes it risky for DC inks on paper so they don't think it's a good fit for it? If we know the emulsion holds up great for WB/DC inks, shouldn't the experts know it too?
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Al, try this stuff..... we have two gallons in use at all times. one gal sensitized, one non sensitized...when we coat screens, we will load a rack with dc screens, load another rack for plastisol...54.00/gal......
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=TX%252dDISCHARGE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION (http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=TX%252dDISCHARGE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION)
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Al, try this stuff..... we have two gallons in use at all times. one gal sensitized, one non sensitized...when we coat screens, we will load a rack with dc screens, load another rack for plastisol...54.00/gal......
[url]http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=TX%252dDISCHARGE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION[/url] ([url]http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=TX%252dDISCHARGE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION[/url])
Do you do any extra steps with it for DC runs or just like plastisol? Have you done any long runs with it?
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Al, try this stuff..... we have two gallons in use at all times. one gal sensitized, one non sensitized...when we coat screens, we will load a rack with dc screens, load another rack for plastisol...54.00/gal......
[url]http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=TX%252dDISCHARGE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION[/url] ([url]http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=TX%252dDISCHARGE-WATER-RESIST-EMULSION[/url])
Do you do any extra steps with it for DC runs or just like plastisol? Have you done any long runs with it?
only thing we do is add the diazo for use with dc,wb and we leave the other gallon alone. open and pour...the most we have run was 1k pieces and from memory we added hardener after washout for insurance, rinse out the screen, squirt on some hardener and let it dry, print. no need for post exposure, we don't use emulsion for blockout.
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the problem Alan will have with the TX-discharge is that the screens you coat will go bad if not used in 2 weeks. That's because of the diazo. If you use the HXT the shelf life is like 2 months or more on a coated screen. I spoke in depth with Mike on this Monday afternoon. Sounds like HXT is your best bet since its a hybrid emulsion. I will be talking to Gary Fox from CCI today and will further discuss this issue.
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I'm telling you guys, I wouldn't make it up. This stuff is pretty friggin awesome. I was telling Dirk the other day about a job that has been re-run a few times, these screens have been printed with 40-50 psi double strokes, been scrubbed re-tapped a few times and after the last run, wet on wet discharge, they still look like new. The trick is in the prep and not trying to rush your exposure with HXT. Clean clean screens, dry as a bone, I give them 24 hours in the dehumidified room. Coated slow 2 over 2 or 3 over 1 if you prefer. Give them a full exposure, don't try to speed things up and break records only to have to burn new screens if they break down. My settings on a 3k tri-light are 300-400 LU depending on mesh count, that ranges between 5 and 6 minutes. Alans 10k will probably hit half of that. Wash out, dry, tape and go. Our only 2 broke down screens have been from having the flood bar set too deep and scraping on the second stroke. that will kill any emulsion. Use what you are happy with, but I've used all the others everyone talks about and none of them with the exception of Nova with diazo did what this did. HXT is cheaper, and didn't need the diazo to perform. There are quite a few shops now using it. I get emails all the time from my CCI rep saying thanks for spreading the word. I know how bad it sucks when screens break down in a run and ruin shirts, paying that extra time to the reclaim guy to beat the crap out of mesh to get hardened emulsion of ect. HXT will give you what you want and in the end give you zero head aches. Just don't expect some 20 second freak time exposure. I'd rather invest a few extra minutes exposing a screen that I'm confident in, rather than rush it and not achieve the full cross link and watch it break down and ruin shirts and set our production back waiting on a new screen.
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I am a big fan of the Aquasol HV (and just picked up the HVP to see if the lighter emulsion helps speed up setups due to visibility), but our exposure process is just taking too long when we are swamped with work. I have limited space and made a drying cabinet that can hold 27 23x31 screens, but I am burning through those in 4 or 5 days now and just don't have the time to clean and coat more mid-week AND wait for burning, washout, dry, post expose, pressure wash out, dry, harden, dry. The main reason for the double washout is I am using a homemade flou-tube exposure unit and compensating for undercutting with two exposures.
How does the Aquasol compare to the HXT when it comes to burn times and overall durability/flexibility? Almost half our jobs are discharge, typically 50-250 shirts.
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I know that there are some HVP fans here, but out of all the emulsions we tried, it was theeeeeeee worst one. I was told you have to have a really heavy exposure unit to really achieve the proper cross link, but a shop I know near me that used HVP for the last couple years and does mostly water based printing has switched to HXT, no more hardening needed, little longer on exposure, but it's worth it to have screens that never break down and don't need hardener sprayed on them. Exposure speed will really depend on the unit you have obviously.
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what color are you using in the hxt? how is reclaim? we've gone through about 50 gallons of the tx and we really like it...but I may give a gallon a shot.
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I used to read these new emulsion threads and get excited to give a new emulsion a try. And every time I come crawling back to HVP with open arms crying lol. I'm really hesitant these days! Must be getting old and stubborn.
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HXT blue. Because you don't need to use hardener, it reclaims like a dream. We use the KorChem ink/emulsion remover in the dip tank and with that, screens may be in the tank from 20-45 seconds and ready to be blown off. It's awesome stuff. CCI is very cool about samples. Robert Luca from CCI is who gave me a gallon to test last year and I'm glad I took the time, I woudn't use any other emulsion for water based printing, except Nova with diazo from Xenon, only issue with that was, once we found HXT and that it's half the price it didn't make sense to use Nova. Call your local CCI Rep and ask for a sample of HXT blue you won't regret it.
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Where can I buy a gallon of this stuff, and which version are you using. I looked around a bit and it seems there are a few versions of the HXT and all were a lot more expensive than $54 for a gallon.
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you can order direct from CCI, or as we do, we order through Nazdar, it's $47 a gal through Nazdar, I do order at least 4 gal at a time, so that may be a case price not sure. Here is a link to the actual emulsion, it's in the Prochem Line http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=HXT-PRE%252dSENSITIZED-EMULSION (http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=HXT-PRE%252dSENSITIZED-EMULSION)
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Screenprintguy, Mike? This is excellent info. I never would have looked at HXT, they mention nothing of it's water resistance in the lit....putting a sample on our order today and will tell 'em you sent me to it. It'll go head to head with Nova in our tests. Looks like Murakami's out since they couldn't be bothered to send me the one sample I requested 4 times. Shame, always liked their emulsion.
Where are you getting the Kiwo WR blue? I've been wanting to get this (or any WR blockout) and stop the post-expo madness around here for a long time now but Midwest is the only one carrying it in my area it seems but I dislike supporting them, even for something small like blockout. Also, I do like those blue blockout pens for quick touchups.
How is the elasticity of this HXT? Our only major issue with HVP is that it will crack when coated for plastisol. Do you use this for both WB and Plasti or just WB given the longer expo? HVP standing as the "one emulsion" has really kept us with it since it can coat thicker for plasti and do the WB (with blockout/post expo/hardening that is....)
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Okay guys i know im late to the party but i do have a quick question as i am looking towards an emulsion better suited for DC. I see that atleast some of you guys are using the blue HXT but i am seeing that they also offer a red HXT that is advertised for waterbased, discharge, and plastisol while the blue is advertised for graphic, solvent, and UV. Which do i go for??? lol i would also like to add that i am still very new to the world of screen printing and am using a 500 watt light to expose... is it still possible to use this or will i have trouble? i have been using CP TEX and it has done fine for me with WB but after trying TX Discharge im wondering if my exposure is not doing the trick. I guess my question is... Can i make my weak exposure unit work with this emulsion? i never run more than 100-300 shirts at this point in time.
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Okay guys i know im late to the party but i do have a quick question as i am looking towards an emulsion better suited for DC. I see that atleast some of you guys are using the blue HXT but i am seeing that they also offer a red HXT that is advertised for waterbased, discharge, and plastisol while the blue is advertised for graphic, solvent, and UV. Which do i go for??? lol i would also like to add that i am still very new to the world of screen printing and am using a 500 watt light to expose... is it still possible to use this or will i have trouble? i have been using CP TEX and it has done fine for me with WB but after trying TX Discharge im wondering if my exposure is not doing the trick. I guess my question is... Can i make my weak exposure unit work with this emulsion? i never run more than 100-300 shirts at this point in time.
First off, both the red and blue are designed for textile or graphic work. Same stuff. It's a Republican-Democrat thing, LOL!
What type of 500 watt light do you have? Size (power) isn't really as important as the correct UV wavelengh. Do you use an exposure calculator or manual step wedge test to determine your correct exposure times presently?
A saving grace of photopolymer emulsions at least, is that they respond to an additional exposure after development to further cross link and more fully expose.
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thanks for the reply Frog! First off, i use a 500 watt halogen workforce light lol. Terrible choice i know i just havnt gotten around to upgrading my exposure unit since its done alright for me this far.
As far as using an exposure calculator or manual step wedge i do not. I am uneducated in this area but feel inclined to look more into it now that you mention it.
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This article pretty clearly and concisely explains how to perform a manual step wedge exposure test, and touches on exposure calculators that do it in one action. (http://www.dynamicsupplyinc.com/Screen-Exposure)
and this one spells out the options of exposure calculators out there (http://www.screenweb.com/content/calculating-a-good-dose-exposure#.VgqzhvlVhBc)
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So glad you mentioned this to me, i'm absolutely going to utilize both of these tools next go around