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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ZooCity on February 19, 2013, 07:58:42 PM
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I'm thinking about grabbing one of each from Action and M&R and comparing to see what I like. All looks really similar though, what is preferred on the older style M&Rs?
Planning on getting a set of the U clamps, set of 16" winged floods, squeegee holders and then and extra couple of holders to try out a dr.J, etc.. I think I'll get the most benefit out of good winged floods with all the wb we run. I tend to default to M&R if possible for stuff like this, just not sure what else is out there.
Anyways, curious to see what others like or if there is any difference at all. I have a wide mix of AWT and lord knows what brand of floods, winged floods and squeegees that I use on my cameo and so far prefer the AWT stuff out of the bunch but it's basically all I have experience with.
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I'm thinking about grabbing one of each from Action and M&R and comparing to see what I like. All looks really similar though, what is preferred on the older style M&Rs?
Planning on getting a set of the U clamps, set of 16" winged floods, squeegee holders and then and extra couple of holders to try out a dr.J, etc.. I think I'll get the most benefit out of good winged floods with all the wb we run. I tend to default to M&R if possible for stuff like this, just not sure what else is out there.
Anyways, curious to see what others like or if there is any difference at all. I have a wide mix of AWT and lord knows what brand of floods, winged floods and squeegees that I use on my cameo and so far prefer the AWT stuff out of the bunch but it's basically all I have experience with.
There is a new squeegee holder that you really should see. There is a video on our web site you should watch. I will be happy to discuss both squeegees and flood bars with you if you would like.
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I did see that. Slick! Might be overkill for us, but I do love the design. I can see a benefit in that you stock one squeegee size and can have a wide variety of blades cut to that length on hand and swap them in/out for the particular job.
What's the pricing on the unit to switch the blades?
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I prefer the good ole' m&r flood bar as it's design rolls ink into the open image area.. the action wing just pushes ink across the screen.
think about it..
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I prefer the good ole' m&r flood bar as it's design rolls ink into the open image area.. the action wing just pushes ink across the screen.
think about it..
This is one thing, well one of the things that I don't like about the winged flood bars. You have no way to add angle to the flood. I like the original floods set at 3 or so. Gives the flooded ink some downward force. As John said the winged floods just plow the ink across the screen. Don't get me wrong I grab my winged ones first.
Zoo, To save you some time, and money, I think someone already compared the M&R and Action winged flood bars on this forum. Look it up. I am pretty sure they decided on the M&R ones.
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throw in some Ink Traps and we got a party going on :P
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I did see that. Slick! Might be overkill for us, but I do love the design. I can see a benefit in that you stock one squeegee size and can have a wide variety of blades cut to that length on hand and swap them in/out for the particular job.
What's the pricing on the unit to switch the blades?
$995. Only one box needed regardless of amount of presses. Squeegee holder remains at old price.
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I have both the M&R and action winged floodbars...I will tell you in our shop my guys like the M&R's better...they seem to flood better and they clean up easier...
that is from our shop that uses them daily
sam
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Ink traps!!!
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I know a lot of people love those traps but in most shops they're on a shelf coated with dust. Vote for wings
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We use all M&R winged flood bars. They clean up much easier than others we tried.
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I gotta ask -what are these ink traps you guys are talking about? do they "snap" on the end of a standard flood bar? we have the old style floods but we mainly use the action winged bars simply because I don't have any of the m&r style.
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MO.......if you have wings and like them don't bother with the traps. If you're looking for a picture its probably on their site.
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Tony, if they're not being used in your shop, would you be interested in selling some? There are certain applications I prefer them over winged bars. I do use both. I too prefer M&R over Action, but just my preference. (how's the back?)
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ink traps are superior, but if you dont keep them clean, get ready for alot of busted screens. I own both.
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We first introduced Winged Flood Bars for use on Precision Hydraulic Ovals in 1991. I believe that it was the very first product that we introduced. Since then, we have made numerous changes in an effort to improve the design and respond to our customers requests.
Last year - we changed the design to make it more cleanup friendly. A new extrusion for the top was designed and the bottom stainless steel wing was redesigned to enable it to mount to the front of the assembly. Are the comments I'm seeing relevant to winged flood bars purchased in the last year?
We feel that the our design provides strength to the bottom flood edge and makes it very straight and keeps it that way. If anyone cares to make a suggestion as to how it can be improved, we are always listening. We do sincerely appreciate your feedback and pay very close attention to what we are told. It's always the best way we have of continuing our improvements.
Here's what we can do that will accommodate your requests for an attack angle on the flood edge. Does everyone agree with the attack angle at 30 degrees?
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the only problem with the angle at 30 is it cuts down on your stroke because the flood is so much further back than the squeegee. You'll have a couple inch gap between the squeegee and the flood.
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the only problem with the angle at 30 is it cuts down on your stroke because the of an inchflood is so much further back than the squeegee. You'll have a couple inch gap between the squeegee and the flood.
That is true - but I just measured the difference in my model to be only 3/8". It will therefore impact stroke length by less than half of an inch.
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wow, it looks like much more than that.
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the only problem with the angle at 30 is it cuts down on your stroke because the flood is so much further back than the squeegee. You'll have a couple inch gap between the squeegee and the flood.
Not if you use smiling jacks, manny's and dr j's :) Contrary to that though is a larger ink well is better from what I've been reading. I don't know or understand the specifics yet but I will soon.
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We first introduced Winged Flood Bars for use on Precision Hydraulic Ovals in 1991. I believe that it was the very first product that we introduced. Since then, we have made numerous changes in an effort to improve the design and respond to our customers requests.
Last year - we changed the design to make it more cleanup friendly. A new extrusion for the top was designed and the bottom stainless steel wing was redesigned to enable it to mount to the front of the assembly. Are the comments I'm seeing relevant to winged flood bars purchased in the last year?
We feel that the our design provides strength to the bottom flood edge and makes it very straight and keeps it that way. If anyone cares to make a suggestion as to how it can be improved, we are always listening. We do sincerely appreciate your feedback and pay very close attention to what we are told. It's always the best way we have of continuing our improvements.
Here's what we can do that will accommodate your requests for an attack angle on the flood edge. Does everyone agree with the attack angle at 30 degrees?
We have over a dozen of the Action floodbars (most recent design) and they clean up very easily. I have not seen the M&R floodbar (have a set of ink traps) but am curious to know why it cleans up better than the Action because I do not see how the Action could be designed to clean up any easier.
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Cleanup has never been my issue, the design of the blade was.
The job of the flood bar is to fill the open area of your design and the best way that is done, is to roll the ink forward into the mesh. When ink is just pushed across a screen, which 90% of printers do, the open areas don't get filled and the squeegee has to work overtime to fill and sheer the ink.
That new design looks good but you'll need to refine the angle a bit, seems to steep.
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Cleanup has never been my issue, the design of the blade was.
The job of the flood bar is to fill the open area of your design and the best way that is done, is to roll the ink forward into the mesh. When ink is just pushed across a screen, which 90% of printers do, the open areas don't get filled and the squeegee has to work overtime to fill and sheer the ink.
That new design looks good but you'll need to refine the angle a bit, seems to steep.
Thank you John. The angle is shown as 30 degree. Perhaps 15 or 20 then? That can be done. I need to know the perfect ( best ) attack angle. It's not practical to offer these in more than one angle.
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It looks like you have to mount the winged FB using screws, that is going to be the worse area for clean up. I would try using that strong double sided tape they use to mount palettes to extrusions, this way no protruding nuts and bolts. Its not extreme pressure anyways being placed on the FB so a strong double sided tape should work.
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It looks like you have to mount the winged FB using screws, that is going to be the worse area for clean up. I would try using that strong double sided tape they use to mount palettes to extrusions, this way no protruding nuts and bolts. Its not extreme pressure anyways being placed on the FB so a strong double sided tape should work.
Thank you for the suggestion sir. We did try that. It worked great until it was time for cleanup. The solvents ate away the tape. So - we tried different tapes - they all failed after a few cleanups. As much as I would love to do it that way - it's not trustworthy. It works on the pallets because there's never solvent coming in contact with the bracket .
Please keep the suggestions coming - always.
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It looks like you have to mount the winged FB using screws, that is going to be the worse area for clean up. I would try using that strong double sided tape they use to mount palettes to extrusions, this way no protruding nuts and bolts. Its not extreme pressure anyways being placed on the FB so a strong double sided tape should work.
Thank you for the suggestion sir. We did try that. It worked great until it was time for cleanup. The solvents ate away the tape. So - we tried different tapes - they all failed after a few cleanups. As much as I would love to do it that way - it's not trustworthy. It works on the pallets because there's never solvent coming in contact with the bracket .
Please keep the suggestions coming - always.
Good point I didnt consider that, not practical for you guys but in our case I would still use the tape since we dont use solvent on our FB's no real need to since they wipe off pretty easy.
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Cleanup has never been my issue, the design of the blade was.
The job of the flood bar is to fill the open area of your design and the best way that is done, is to roll the ink forward into the mesh. When ink is just pushed across a screen, which 90% of printers do, the open areas don't get filled and the squeegee has to work overtime to fill and sheer the ink.
That new design looks good but you'll need to refine the angle a bit, seems to steep.
It is the case that the winged flood bar is not very effective at filling the stencil. This is where the ink trap may be better suited since, since it attaches to the squeegee you can use a Dr. J or regular squeegee for the flood. Is the M&R winged floodbar able to better fill the stencil? I have not seen one and don't know if it is similar in design to the Action one.
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Cleanup has never been my issue, the design of the blade was.
The job of the flood bar is to fill the open area of your design and the best way that is done, is to roll the ink forward into the mesh. When ink is just pushed across a screen, which 90% of printers do, the open areas don't get filled and the squeegee has to work overtime to fill and sheer the ink.
That new design looks good but you'll need to refine the angle a bit, seems to steep.
Thank you John. The angle is shown as 30 degree. Perhaps 15 or 20 then? That can be done. I need to know the perfect ( best ) attack angle. It's not practical to offer these in more than one angle.
That will fall on you guys.. some R&D with just enough angle to get that ink rolling is what you need.
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Action,
Since your making changes, make all the nuts and bolts on the floods stainless. Since I have been doing waterbase all mine have rusted. Its not a big problem but the more they rust the more chance it will be. I will be switching them out soon.
I like the new design but that two bend angle will need some serious care and then quality control to make sure that both sides are level to the screen surface. If they are not QCed the floods will be hard to use, especially for the guys that hard flood.
I have a few designs that I am going to tinker with this year. One of them is going to be very easy to make and will most likely cost me all of $5.
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Action,
Since your making changes, make all the nuts and bolts on the floods stainless. Since I have been doing waterbase all mine have rusted. Its not a big problem but the more they rust the more chance it will be. I will be switching them out soon.
I like the new design but that two bend angle will need some serious care and then quality control to make sure that both sides are level to the screen surface. If they are not QCed the floods will be hard to use, especially for the guys that hard flood.
I have a few designs that I am going to tinker with this year. One of them is going to be very easy to make and will most likely cost me all of $5.
Hi Jon:
Thank you for offering your advice. We switched all of our fasteners to stainless a few years ago. The ones you have must be older than that. The acorn nuts also are nickle plated and should hold up ok.
I do agree that there are QC concerns with the multiple angles.
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Action,
Since your making changes, make all the nuts and bolts on the floods stainless. Since I have been doing waterbase all mine have rusted. Its not a big problem but the more they rust the more chance it will be. I will be switching them out soon.
I like the new design but that two bend angle will need some serious care and then quality control to make sure that both sides are level to the screen surface. If they are not QCed the floods will be hard to use, especially for the guys that hard flood.
I have a few designs that I am going to tinker with this year. One of them is going to be very easy to make and will most likely cost me all of $5.
Hi Jon:
Thank you for offering your advice. We switched all of our fasteners to stainless a few years ago. The ones you have must be older than that. The acorn nuts also are nickle plated and should hold up ok.
I do agree that there are QC concerns with the multiple angles.
Mine are about 2 years old. They only rusted when I started to clean them in the washout booth. Other wise they are my go to floods. As for the angle I think 30 is about right. Anything is better than flat.
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Good point on the angle. M&R states theirs is 10˚ angle. I have one of each on their way and will check 'em out.
I know it's good to have standard floods on hand for various reasons and no, I probably wouldn't run wings on screens where I was doing a hard fill and printing plastisol.
Ink traps sound great, best of both, though I'm not clear on where they attach to the holder and $106.10 per?! They better work miracles at $212.20 per head.
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I think we paid $90 for the last set (one left, one right) we purchased, $45 each. The traps have a tab that goes between the squeegee holder and the squeegee before you clamp it in place. I like them because they can be used with any of your setup, short or long squeegees and even fit a double squeegee and not affected by squeegee or flood angle. We use them with the plastisol and discharge. Sometimes I don't even tape the screens we are using the traps on. They do need to be kept clean and moving free and make sure there is not tape for them to grab, could rip a screen.
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We don't have ours YET, but the M&R qwik clamp is the best thing since sliced bread..... I'm not sure about everyone else but regardless of who's squeegee carrier we try, the blade gets warped as soon as we tighten the bolts to clamp the blade. In turn we have to sharpen every squeegee prior to using just so the face is flat all the way across the squeegee. The new qwik clamp does not distort the squeegee at all and applies even pressure across the entire blade. We played with the unit in Long Beach and from what I've seen this setup it will certainly give us a more quality blade along with the ease of switching blades. I'm a big supporter of Action as well, and the products they make. Everything we've ever got from them was great quality, same angles, etc. If we were not going to the qwik clamp I would use the Action Squeegee carrier as I like those the best for a standard carrier. For flood bars my guys and I tend to like the std. M&R non wing style. If we have big runs we will use the wing floodbars but I tend to dislike taking them off and on the press, as well as cleaning them. We tested the ink traps from M&R and they work great but keeping them clean, along with putting them on/taking them off gets to be a bit of a pain as well.
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Good point on the angle. M&R states theirs is 10˚ angle. I have one of each on their way and will check 'em out.
I know it's good to have standard floods on hand for various reasons and no, I probably wouldn't run wings on screens where I was doing a hard fill and printing plastisol.
Ink traps sound great, best of both, though I'm not clear on where they attach to the holder and $106.10 per?! They better work miracles at $212.20 per head.
your pricing on the ink traps is way off. E mail me if you want the correct info.
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I think the qwik clamp is awesome but I'd rather invest the 1k for that clamping unit in many other things first. If there was a more cost effective device to use the system with I'd be ordering a set of those.
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Good point on the angle. M&R states theirs is 10˚ angle. I have one of each on their way and will check 'em out.
I know it's good to have standard floods on hand for various reasons and no, I probably wouldn't run wings on screens where I was doing a hard fill and printing plastisol.
Ink traps sound great, best of both, though I'm not clear on where they attach to the holder and $106.10 per?! They better work miracles at $212.20 per head.
your pricing on the ink traps is way off. E mail me if you want the correct info.
Got it here:
https://store.mrprint.com/mr_pls/oos_items_pkg.item_details?p_item_no_c=9711301&p_search_mode_c=ITEMS&p_search_string_c=ink%20trap&p_page_id_i=1&p_page_size_i=10&p_sort_mode_c=ITEM%3ADESCRIPTION&p_page_view_c=LIST (https://store.mrprint.com/mr_pls/oos_items_pkg.item_details?p_item_no_c=9711301&p_search_mode_c=ITEMS&p_search_string_c=ink%20trap&p_page_id_i=1&p_page_size_i=10&p_sort_mode_c=ITEM%3ADESCRIPTION&p_page_view_c=LIST)
Email sent!
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What does it really matter if the sides of the screens fill up with ink? I found that it's easier to just give in & let it all flow out there than to mess with scooping ink back, or the snap-on wings, or winged flood bars. I have a couple older Action ones, & we just got tired of having to always set the angle exact for them & to clean the ink out of the grooves. It was more work than the extra minute it took a helper to scoop the accumulated ink back into the can at the end of the run.
Not that I don't like most of Action's stuff -- I do! The zipper-hoodie pallets are a lifesaver, but the winged floods didn't float my boat.