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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ZooCity on October 03, 2012, 01:22:46 PM
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I've been patiently working with Anatol to try and make our Thunder manual hold M3 roller frames (as promised that it was built for before the sale) properly for over a year now with no progress.
Today, this happened.
What remedy do you have when a company sells you faulty equipment and refuses to do anything about it? I ask, because I'm officially over it with this co. and want our cash back.
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Holy crap! The welds should be stronger than the tubing.
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Damn. I cannot believe that the weld has now broken. I couldn't believe that you've had such a hard time getting them to take care of the issue of not being able to print with m3's and now this problem.
I know you've been more than kind to Anatol considering their lack of support given to you and how tough it must be putting this kind of info out there to the public, but I think it's warranted. You've given them plenty of time to make things right and they haven't just dropped the ball, it seems like they never picked it up. I'm sure this might actually get them moving a little bit knowing that hundreds of potential customers will see this at some point. You'll likely get some pressure to take this down but I wouldn't do it until you are completely satisfied.
Sorry Zoo, you deserve much better than this. How did the weld break, or better yet what exactly were you doing when it happened?
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Damn, what part of the press is that, I can't tell from the close-ups. Also, can you show how the M3's don't work so others can see that problem too? Now that the cat's out of the bag, might as well document the whole thing for the world to see right!
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Happened from normal use. My printer noticed the left side of the screen was down lower. I came in this morn to help with a larger job and there it was.
I have honestly done more than I should to help Anatol with this. My post isn't out of anger but the intent is to get someone from the company to address this and, if they will not, to warn others. A simple return will be far less costly to both parties than legal action to enforce the warranty.
When someone does bad business with me I always respond by doing good business and getting to a compromise that works best for all. I just don't see why companies won't do it right from the start.
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Part of the poor service record is that the people who engineered and built the original equipment are no longer with the company and, at least in my experience, the people who have replaced them have little or no background or experience. Everytime I had an issue I was asked to take a picture.
"Dont you want the serial and model #?"
"No that won't help pls take a picture."
Wow
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I would have them send a welder in to fix it. Our Gauntlet had to have the entire top of the press welded on. No joke the entire head with all the print arms came loose and would free spin.
M&R sent a tech to investigate and when he was using the head to stabilize himself, it shifted. M&R then sent a welder of our choice into fix it. No problems since. He did a bang-up job.
Our press shouldn't have broken either, but M&R took care of it like they should have.
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Holy Smokes, I am sorry Chris! Man, that is crazy. I really hope everything works out for you in a much quicker way now that your issue is public.
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crap.. sorry dude! its got to be frustrating!
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Sorry to see that.
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I really hope everything works out for you in a much quicker way now that your issue is public.
Yep, seems like it expedited a resolution dramatically. Sorry to see it came down to this. I'll be happy to have this post removed if the return pans out.
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The problem is not the weld guys. The problem is that the tubing is to thin where the stress point is. If you look closely you will see it broke right next to the weld like it should. It is a design flaw not a welders error. If you weld it back up it will probably break like that again.
That sucks for you man.
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dude...sorry to hear this...that really has to suck...but i am sure I am with the other guys here..if you need anything let me know...and we will do what we can to help you out man
sorry to see this
sam
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The problem is not the weld guys. The problem is that the tubing is to thin where the stress point is. If you look closely you will see it broke right next to the weld like it should. It is a design flaw not a welders error. If you weld it back up it will probably break like that again.
That sucks for you man.
You are right probably but a welder could fill it in where strength will be needed. Or at the least the welder should recognize a weak point and ask the engineers to alter the material.
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I really hope everything works out for you in a much quicker way now that your issue is public.
Yep, seems like it expedited a resolution dramatically. Sorry to see it came down to this. I'll be happy to have this post removed if the return pans out.
I assume they contacted you shortly after this thread opened? You don't have to give details but does it sound like they are serious or just want this thread to be gone?
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Well at least it is moving along. Let us know how it shakes out.
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The problem is not the weld guys. The problem is that the tubing is to thin where the stress point is. If you look closely you will see it broke right next to the weld like it should. It is a design flaw not a welders error. If you weld it back up it will probably break like that again.
That sucks for you man.
You are right probably but a welder could fill it in where strength will be needed. Or at the least the welder should recognize a weak point and ask the engineers to alter the material.
I would add a gusset and it should be fine. I hope they make it right.
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I assume they contacted you shortly after this thread opened? You don't have to give details but does it sound like they are serious or just want this thread to be gone?
They did. I emailed them this morning, knew what would likely happen regarding an actual addressing of the issue and decided to post here and see if I could get this taken care of. It worked I guess, they were aware of the post and, understandably, upset. Squeaky wheel gets the grease but sometimes you need to amplify the squeak.
I have been in contact with them since we received the machine but it's been extremely slow trying to troubleshoot, weeks and weeks between waiting for parts, etc., hence the lag. In early July I finally said "okay I give up, let's talk about other options beside parts replacement and modifications". Today we had that discussion finally.
It's true, what you saw in that pic will inevitably happen on all heads, there's no easy fix for this press at this point unfortunately so we worked out another solution. Again, I'll request this deleted if there is an actual resolution.
Thanks for all the offers of help. My only concern is timelines with sending this machine out and getting another one in without being pressless.
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I expressed concerns to an email to Anatol as they are trying to sell me a press. In the email they acknowledge the problems they have but didn't really offer much comfort wise to me except that Randy at the OTS handles there service out here in Cali which is good cause i heard good things about them and then i hear about your manual press problem and it taking a year or more to get resolved and its still not resolved so it makes you wonder what there plan on improving is, if any.
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Sorry to hear about at Zoocity.
I can feel your pain somewhat. I've had a dryer from them for a few years now and have had fuse issues, having to replace them a bunch of times, which aint cheap. Was told to take some pictures and send to them, did. Never heard back from them, this is months and months ago. I've moved on, won't buy from them again. Hope it all works out for the better for you.
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I will talk to the other two stoogies, but I would be inclined to leave the post up and lock it up. Any resolution and action they complete should be posted so other ppl know that in the end it was taken care of. But if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt, but would like to have Anatol post their side of the story too) it is just stating what happened. Anatol will have to fess up and step up to the plate. As many here have mentioned, they could do sooooo well, but just need another step or two. Maybe this turns into an incentive. 'would love to be looking at this post a couple of years back and thinking about the amazing leap they have done recently. we'll see. . .
pierre
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I will talk to the other two stoogies, but I would be inclined to leave the post up and lock it up. Any resolution and action they complete should be posted so other ppl know that in the end it was taken care of. But if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt, but would like to have Anatol post their side of the story too) it is just stating what happened. Anatol will have to fess up and step up to the plate. As many here have mentioned, they could do sooooo well, but just need another step or two. Maybe this turns into an incentive. 'would love to be looking at this post a couple of years back and thinking about the amazing leap they have done recently. we'll see. . .
pierre
Sounds good to me but I'm not sure if it would really behoove Anatol to post a side of the story, I don't think it would help them look any better and I certainly have no desire to get into any sort of internet pissing match, nor to drum up other disgruntled customers here. That's up to them though if they want to reply here or not.
Yes, I made this public as I had to prod them into actual action on this but, now that I have, I think they could have one more chance to resolve it and let it be between the two of us and not some public spectacle.
So what might be better is if we 86'd this post when they successfully resolved the issue and I then made an entirely separate post commending them for eventually taking care of a situation with a piece of their equipment. Like a clean start for them here, aside from the rumblings buried within other posts.
I would love to see them take the opportunity to turn things around and be a little better at what they do, that's why I was patient and helpful to my full capacity in trying to fix this machine over the last year.
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Hope Anatol does you right. Poor engineering on their part.
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If this was an isolated case I'd be in favor of taking it down once a resolution was reached, but unfortunately this is a trend. I think some of you are being way too nice and in the end it will excuse the poor, poor, did I mention very poor customer service if this is swept under the rug. For years now I've said the same thing that some of you have said about them, they are very close to being a great manufacturer, but they fall short over and over again in important areas and it's been known by everyone in the industry. The fact that it's known by them and the problem has not gotten better over the last few years tells me something. I for one, would love to see them change for the better and I think a public challenge like this might be the only way to do it. The vast majority of posts that I've saved about manufacturers' poor service is about them, and it's not because I'm discriminating, I save all the ones I come across. I know this will influence potential buyers but shouldn't it? If we never talked about the blatantly obvious examples of poor service then others will continue to get hurt, when it could have been prevented or at least brought up during the buying process. It could also serve as a tool to convince them they need to do better, or continue to lose deals. Like I said, if this was one of just a few unfortunate issues that fall through the cracks then I'd have a different view, but this has happened to too many recently. And the number of people that actually talk about it on industry forums is very low to the actual number of people that it happens to. The vast majority of screen printers never visit or participate on these forums.
I've given my opinion on whether or not this thread should stay, and I've gone back and forth on it but this is my official stance on it. Maybe a year or two from now we can look back on this and say that it was an example of the old Anatol, the new version is far superior.
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I agree with Alan. Our industry needs some policing and the only way to do is for people to communicate it. For those that do not have a lot of friends in the business they will never know about a shady company if it were not for forums on the internet. In this day and age you have to use the internet to your advantage. If you are truly being wronged by a business that has a reputation for poor customer service then you should be able to vent away as long as it is factual and can be proven.
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On another note, if I were a shop that has some red equipment I'd be all over my rep about fixing this stuff. I'm not telling Darryl or Donnie what to do by any means, I'm just saying that it's what I would do in that situation. They have been done ok by Anatol from all accounts so maybe it seems out of place to get involved and I can see that perspective and respect it as well.
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I thought that I had better weigh in on this issue.
Not the issue of Anatol service of lack thereof per se, but rather whether this thread should remain.
For years, I had a cordial, even friendly relationship with Paul at Anatol. We had mutual foes, similar industry concerns, we both had enough time on our hands to play on forums and become "board buddies"
This January I had the pleasure of meeting him in person, and allowed him to take me to lunch. ;D
When TSB began, Anatol was on board, and even took advantage of a complimentary Banner.
When Shanarchy starting having problems with the used Anatol he got from Bill Miller, it appeared that the installation was at fault. I dropped a friendly note to Paul, in the hopes that Anatol would offer some advice if nothing else.
Unfortunately, the equivalent of digital text crickets chirping was what I received.
When Tony P brought up some issues of lack of service on presses in a new shop, I once again dropped a note to Anatol with a heads up, and suggested possibly addressing it here. I always assume that even polite constructive criticism is welcome by most enlightened souls.
Once again, crickets.
I have been contacted two or three times by a sales rep new to my area, and conversational as I am, I mentioned my concerns to him that Anatol was developing a less-than-flattering reputation on this issue, and he may want to pass the information up the chain of command.
I have to say, though it saddens me, that apparently what you see here, is what you get.
I wish that it wasn't so.
That said, I don't feel that this thread is mere bashing, but valuable information that can both help guide printers in their purchases, and help an otherwise good company see where they need to improve to become even better.
If I was the man behind Anatol, I'd welcome this input.
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IMO Anatols higher end presses are as well made as they are expensive. However:
On a 12 color Vindicator the install tech failed to set the table lift high enough causing side to side reg issues. We had to re-set this (digitally) and of course had to re-set off contact and re-level the press. (The install person is on these boards but I won't name names)
On an entry level Trident the tech simply did not understand what part of the indexer needed replacing. I finally brought in a couple of machine repair/welders who had never seen an auto before (he called it the Red Spider). They removed the indexer and not only replaced the part but improved it's design by making it stronger.
Later on that same Trident all, and I mean all, the 1/8" air lines were blowing holes daily. Went to a local Hose and Gasket Co and they hooked me up with a better (American Made) product and we were down for a day replumbing the entire machine.
Lastly about 8 ys ago I called for a tech and was told they could not take calls as they were at a Trade Show.
Sadly Anatol was of no help in any of these situations. That said I've met Paul and he's a great no pressure kind of guy and just scratch my head about all of this. Perhaps it's the "We don't make money in Parts and Service." mentality which may come from Mr. Anatol himself.
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Dang Tony, I wouldn't consider a Trident in any form "entry level" haha. What was the deal with the indexer? Servo or air?
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Perhaps not but it is made with cheaper parts (from what I've been told). A respected industry machine CEO informed me that they tested that same foreign air line and found it not suitable though cheaper. He even offered to replace it with his brand free of charge but I figured I'd save that favor for another day!
It was a servo/pneumatic hybrid.
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ive replaced the tiny airlines on our anatols with Legris tubing and exchanged the hose barbs with press to lock style fittings. no more leaks.
most recent was on the tridents index capture fork.
im not sure what brand was on ours, but the Legris brand is French, and its vastly superior to the one that came with the machine.
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Doesn't it say something when A "respected industry machine CEO'' offers to help you, free of charge, just for the sake of helping you? I can't wait to show what he's helped me with recently.
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I don't know guys, but Anatol has been great for me service wise and all, Rich has done such a great job with service on his equipment over the years ppl now compare other companies to their model. It would be nice if all auto companies used M&R's model of service but sadly they don't and this gives M&R the edge. I would love to make Sams' money LOL, but would not run my biz like he does his(want be making that money), but on top of everything I just said companies should take care of customers after the sale if they want more busniess from them. Zoo I hope they take care of you and get to be an Anatol customer for life I know that bad taste in your mouth now might last, but its equipment and things happen, if they lied to you that another story.
Darryl
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That blows. They should take care of you. I've been taken care of fairly well during my stint as an Anatol user but not all of my needs were dealt with through Anatol. There is a tech on the west coast, Randy of OTS who knows more about Anatol than Anatol. He got me out of a big pinch when my amplifier went out. Of course in your case it is a manual and he nor anyone else other than Anatol can take care of your situation. I hope they do the right thing. I'm watching your case with great interest.
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To update: Anatol has given attention to this "all the way to the top" and have expressed interest in rebuilding the Thunder to fix the issues, shipping the re-designed machine to us and taking the old one back. If the new machine still cannot perform as indicated, I may also send that machine back for a refund.
In kind, I have offered to, one last time, assist with solutions to the problems. Personally, I would rather just move on as I have spent an unreasonable amount of time and expense on this matter. I am not in their employ and have only received costs, not compensation, for any of this. On the other hand, I would still be happy to assist in making the Thunder a great press.
I've sent another compilation of problems and solutions to them for creating a Thunder press that can lift and lower M3 roller frames or similar frame types correctly, consistently and without failure of the press and will follow up as soon as I am able with a video for them going over it all visually.
I also brought up a brief list of issues with my machine that, from hearing other issues here, could prevent many service problems across a variety of their products with some better attention at the factory. My hope is they address these issues as well for better overall delivery of their product and rather than needing better attention to service, having less need for that service from the onset.
They have expressed a genuine desire to do better with this machine and a deep concern for the public nature of the issue.
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Dude offense...I would dump that machine and get a new ( other Brand ) one...
just my two cents..
Sam
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I really like Paul, was great to Shelly and I when we visited while press shopping. The one thing that Anatol never sold me on was the very issue you see here, service. I think they have potential to build a great machine and provide great service. But they need to work on the service.
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Brandt..not to be a smart ass...but you say this is good craftsmanship? to break at a weld like that is not good in any book...They must have dumbed down their work to get it a selling point...
like I said I would get a full refund and move on...this is their problem and it is sad it has to be out here in the public vs. taking care of it by anatol...
sad .....really really sad
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Brandt..not to be a smart ass...but you say this is good craftsmanship? to break at a weld like that is not good in any book...They must have dumbed down their work to get it a selling point...
like I said I would get a full refund and move on...this is their problem and it is sad it has to be out here in the public vs. taking care of it by anatol...
sad .....really really sad
Whoa there Sam I didn't say this was good craftsmanship. I said they have the potential to build a great machine. I think its a fair statement.
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gotcha...yeah everyone does...but not everyone will...
sam
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just so we're clear here. this whole time, all you are trying to do is get this press to raise and lower M3's? Or am I missing something?
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A weld breaking is rare, but it happens, as MK said his M&R broke a major weld. It might reflect their craftsmanship or it might be just a fluke. As an isolated thing, I actually don't hold something like this too hard against anyone as MK didn't regarding his Gauntlet. In my case, the replacement part is already in the mail for my press and if that's all it needed to be back up to par, nobody would have ever heard about this....
....but it needs much more than that and I've made it clear I'm tired of trying to help way back in July. So, for me, this was simply the straw that broke the camels back.
My camel can hold a lot of straw.
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just so we're clear here. this whole time, all you are trying to do is get this press to raise and lower M3's? Or am I missing something?
Yes. It's a bigger problem than it sounds unfortunately due to the overall design. They just never stuck a roller frame in one of these manuals, never considered it. I'll leave it to your imagination (well I guess I didn't, you can see the pic) what issues might arise if you built a press with the mindset that an aluminum static frame was the only frame that would ever be used in the press and then sell it to someone using roller frames.
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Vastex baby, built like a tank, a real mans press... :P
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Just a note, that I have just heard that Paul S. is no longer with Anatol.
I am anxious to find out his next step, as he always seemed like one of the good guys.
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Just a note, that I have just heard that Paul S. is no longer with Anatol.
I am anxious to find out his next step, as he always seemed like one of the good guys.
Paul is a great guy. Or at least my experience with him was always great. About 2 years ago he went to work with American Screen Supply (I think that was the company).
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I really like Paul, was great to Shelly and I when we visited while press shopping. The one thing that Anatol never sold me on was the very issue you see here, service. I think they have potential to build a great machine and provide great service. But they need to work on the service.
Same here, when we were looking for our autos we didnt consider Anatol because of all the posts in different forums of very poor service. You can make a good machine but if service stinks what do you do when it goes down.
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I think you might be thinking of Matt, he left Anatol a year and a half or more to work for a supplier.
So Paul no longer works for Anatol...I was wondering when or if he would finally get out of there. He was the only one that I knew that still worked there. They have had some serious turnover the last few years. I get a new sales rep calling me every few months and it doesn't sound like they have been in the industry before by chatting i
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Update: setup the modified Thunder today. Print/test tomorrow/next day.
It appears to be greatly improved with most of the issues tackled. What did we want to do with this thread ultimately? We could just leave it up and I could post a new thread reviewing the new Thunder which will (hopefully, fingers crossed) not be damning like this one is so the two would balance out....or we could delete this and I make a new post.
I don't have a preference either way.
Looking forward to posting a brief review of this press finally. I did not do so before b/c it would have sounded like a giant bitch session instead of a review due to the many, many issues with the previous one. This one installed properly in under an hour so I'm hopeful the review will be a thumbs up.
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I think you should leave it up...2 reasons...1 to show the power of a group like this and 2 to show how a problem is fixed...we all make mistakes but it is how you correct those mistakes is very important.
sam
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i worked in the pump industry for 30+ years, it is similar to the screen printing industry in many ways as far as having a short list of movers and shakers that really make a difference in the industry.
Good guys and bad guys come and go but the merry go round ride pretty much remains the same defined by the product the comsumer gets, this applies to pumps and presses.
I have known many great guys who were throttled by bad products...... they either fixed the problems or move on to other merry go round rides.
At the end of the day what counts is the consumer and the value one gets for the money one spends. We are our own consumer protection committee the post i would think the thread should stay, after all 1549 views should send a pretty powerful message to any supplier to our industry...... it is not about people it is about products and the value of our collective wisdom because sometimes even a real good guy can't fix a bad situation.
mooseman