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Artist => General Art Discussions => Topic started by: Clark on May 27, 2011, 11:13:34 AM
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Where do ya'll place the importance of the design in your work. For us, when we do retail work, it is the single most important aspect of our sales pitch. We believe that if you don't want to pay for good art...move along. There's plenty of guys that will throw some Bull S on a t-shirt and sell it to you...we aren't one of them. It's amazingly easy to sell good art, you just have to target the right customers to do so. I walked into a restaurant this week, and the guy was visiting with a dozen other printers this week. I brought in a half-dozen very nice samples with great illustrations on them. Walked out with a $250 deposit for artwork that will be going on 150 shirts. Just finished up a couple other jobs where the client paid $525 for two designs, each going on 70 shirts. That's well over a $1.00 + average per shirt that goes to the artist, and it's worth every penny to me. In my mind, art is so important and can make or break a printing company...
I am continually appalled at the level of crap art that some people put out. It does the entire industry a disservice. We basically go into every quote looking to give the artist $1.00 per shirt. So a 400 piece job will yield a $400 piece of art, etc. Obviously there are times when the numbers are significantly skewed, but that is the goal.
Curious as to where some of you print shop owners put the importance of the design work in your business plans.
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This is a great point. This is something that we try to do as well. Even on customer supplied art. Its the art that is on the shirt that sells the shirt, not the brand of shirt itself.
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I was just talking this over with my co-worker yesterday.
I put art way up there. Probably too far up sometimes and, earlier on, I did graphic design for clients when printing was slow so I certainly made some crappy art in the early days and now really appreciate the value of good, ready for press art. I got better at it over time and incorporated what I was learning into our retail line designs as well as client work. Now many of my clients want our "look" and, lucky me, I'm the only guy who can generate that specific look. What it means is I wish to god I could hire an artist and that clients in my area would pay for him or her to generate their art. Hell, I'd be the artist man if they'd pay me, but they just don't pay for art it seems.
Nobody around here is going to pay $250 for art going on a 130 pc order. If I quoted that out they would just go to another shop and take the lower quote. That great you can get that but doesn't seem possible out here.
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You're area maybe different Zoo. I am friends with a printer near me, and we are good ways away from the big city. It amazes him that I charge for art on every job...every single one. He does all his own stuff using clip art and the regular templates, etc. Now, we are only 10-15 minutes apart from each other. How is it that I can routinely get $1-$3 per shirt for art and he can't even get one penny for it. It's my belief that you have to have a solid portfolio and then put a monetary value to the difference between your work and someone else's. Then build value in the design work by showing the customer that people will continue to wear your designs over and over instead of becoming a grease rag out in the garage after their customer wears it once.
Of course my friend can't charge for art he's doing the same thing day in and day out. You have to be different, and better. But, if people are seeking out your style and you're the only one who can do it in your area how can it be that you can't profit from this situation?
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I was just talking this over with my co-worker yesterday.
I put art way up there. Probably too far up sometimes and, earlier on, I did graphic design for clients when printing was slow so I certainly made some crappy art in the early days and now really appreciate the value of good, ready for press art. I got better at it over time and incorporated what I was learning into our retail line designs as well as client work. Now many of my clients want our "look" and, lucky me, I'm the only guy who can generate that specific look. What it means is I wish to god I could hire an artist and that clients in my area would pay for him or her to generate their art. Hell, I'd be the artist man if they'd pay me, but they just don't pay for art it seems.
Nobody around here is going to pay $250 for art going on a 130 pc order. If I quoted that out they would just go to another shop and take the lower quote. That great you can get that but doesn't seem possible out here.
I'm in their too. And Yes good art sells much better.
There are highend printers just as there are highend artist.
I'm just further down the ladder.
Its a tuff job...but somebody has to do it.
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Honestly, I'd have to say it goes both ways.
Our best customers are the ones who say they saw our site and wanted that level of art and most the shops out there are just selling clip art and text and charging crazy art charges.
these are for events and companies who want to look good!
On the other hand as a high-end designer and production artist, I know that many people want their creation on a shirt for a reunion or small company and they just dont give a hoot about quality, they want what they want when they want it.... Usually right now. and peoples digital muck is worse then the bar napkin sketches we used to get 25 years ago.
the majority of consumers do not know what quality is nor do they care. they equate t-shirts with CHEAP stenciled letters. However there are lots of folks that want their Custom apparel to rivval that in the market place...
Sorry I have kinda had a bad attitude about people wanting push button cheap shirts from their 72 dpi internet thumbnail they " DESIGNED" aka stole of Google images. but it is business for this smal shop.
Being able to produce High-end art for the general client over stenciled crap will always make you hands above the competition and get you the best marketing ( Word of mouth)
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the majority of consumers do not know what quality is nor do they care. they equate t-shirts with CHEAP stenciled letters. However there are lots of folks that want their Custom apparel to rivval that in the market place...
See this is where I believe alot of folks can do better. It is our job to sell and at the same time teach the client that there is a better way. I'm not talking about doing high-end on every job. But a talented artist that runs $50-$75/hr can do alot of work in one hour. And it's my thought that out sourcing to very qualified production artists for even an hour will put you above most other shops. In order to not eat that hours worth of time, you must charge for art..and you must show the client the difference and the value they are getting for the $75.
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Here's a quick example of what I am talking about. The first image is some crappy online thing that these people have been getting for a couple years. And they thought the art was okay, but they were unhappy with the price..they thought the price of the finished goods was too much. The second image cost $50 to get done. Very simple production art, and about an hour worth of work for a good production artist. It's not the Mona Lisa, but I also think the customer sees the value between the getting free crap vs. a $50 art charge. Am I wrong to see significant value in the difference...a value that should be charged for?
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/WHACKEM/Crawfish-2010-shirt.jpg)
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/WHACKEM/Beardan-Crawfish-Boil-1.jpg)
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Guys believe me I'm not on any side but one. And I not trying to be hard to get along with.
These new guys reading these are just like I was years ago and want and need the help.
I just feel that they need to know it is something in the middle.
Most of them will never make it to your level, hell I will never make it to your level.
They just need to know it is something in the middle.
A good technical printer can do well in the middle.
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I agree Clark, I think we have all printed our share of instant car wash rags.
For me the trouble is not in producing or charging for better art, but in finding a way to
say "your art sucks" nicely.
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When a customer says they are going to send me the art to redraw, etc. I usually just ask them if they would like my experienced opinion on the design or whether or not they will allow changes. I make it a point to be honest with them and tell them how it can be improved upon. In the end, it's my belief that whoever is buying the shirts just wants them to be a success, however it is that they measure that, and it my goal to make the reality for them...sometimes you just have to be brutally honest with the client, and more times than not, they will learn to trust you and eventually give you full-creative control over all their projects if you do them right from the beginning.
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Nobody around here is going to pay $250 for art going on a 130 pc order. If I quoted that out they would just go to another shop and take the lower quote. That great you can get that but doesn't seem possible out here.
They exist...
If price is the deciding factor for a customer - THEY WILL NEVER BE LOYAL if they don’t care that some bait-and-switch artist gives them blemish/seconds for shirts, a crappy print with 110 mesh pooped on so thick it looks like it was applied with a masons brick trowel - of course art is not an issue for that type of customer!
You can either whore-out and watch your pricing so that you match your desired profit against your cost structure or give up the job to the troglodyte down the street.
We are screen printers involved in garment decoration (or printing in general if you prefer) it is a craft as part of a business.
Walmart sells blank shirts, and makes a profit.
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I agree Clark, I think we have all printed our share of instant car wash rags.
For me the trouble is not in producing or charging for better art, but in finding a way to
say "your art sucks" nicely.
Last Sunday, I just asked a potential customer, if they insisted on me using their art without my improvements on it, to sign a promise to not disclose who printed the shirts!
Hey, they didn't come back with the order, on Monday, hmmmm.
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I agree Clark, I think we have all printed our share of instant car wash rags.
For me the trouble is not in producing or charging for better art, but in finding a way to
say "your art sucks" nicely.
Last Sunday, I just asked a potential customer, if they insisted on me using their art without my improvements on it, to sign a promise to not disclose who printed the shirts!
Hey, they didn't come back with the order, on Monday, hmmmm.
This comes down to several things.
Craft - dang, I rock that design...
Business - did I make a profit...
Service - did I make that customer happy...
Marketing - will that design and job get more customers...
From a survival standpoint - did that check get credited yet....
I think I have come to value facts over anyones feelings including my own...
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Art is what started me in printing, so its safe to say I care about it the most. In my opinion the design is what sells the shirt, not the printing, or who printed it at least not to the same degree.
I even find it hard to print these boring shirts with just text or something on them. Not that we dont from time to time, but even then I will often spice it up free beacuse I find that if they sell shirts easy or easier than before then they will remember that, and come back for that again.
But, I charge for art 99% of the time and I think it should be charged for. People want to buy a shirt that they like, not just a shirt, if the design/art wasn't important we would all be in blank shirts.
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This is a great conversation.
I actually have achieved just about all you referred to Clark in my marketplace. We (basically me) as a company are known for our design and quality primarily and are top of mind in the community for design work. Lately, I see my design work imitated on everything from posters to shirt art. We have a successful boutique retail line that we manufacture in house and this certainly helps us as well. That's awesome and I'm proud of that. It's what built the company to where it is, alongside those points Killer outlined.
This has got me thinking more on this and I really like giving the option to clients. Our print packages come with a half-hour of layout, basic design and digital mockups as well as consultation. I do make it clear that we can do much more in the art department as well as creating a retail ready, high-end product and always give pricing for that up front but many just don't have the budget. Before the 'ol economy tanked it was better and many clients were happy paying even double for their shirts than last year and getting a tight product but these days everyone still wants that but just can't afford it.
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It's funny, My brain has gotten so skewed with the jump into Digital one off shirts. As a production artist my first thought was of art as in " Camera Ready" or Origianal not a copy of a reproduction.
Art is subjective ! Just look at what Old Navy hets 35 bucks for :o
If you cannot offer great design work, Illustration and color theory you are not ever going to be competitive in the market. Nor will you gain a reputation.
there is a market for all types, from My kids drawing to the Hack crap I stole off the internet.
I have one customer I am doing three hours of art @$65.00 an hour for only 24 shirts! 8)
and another that ordered 500 tees with the little web icon that he insist we use. He even auot vector traced it to not get a charge.... It has like oars and hockey sticks making text.... :o
Even though I will recreate a clean vector no charge at that many shirts, so we do not look bad,,, It's just Ugly Fudge,,,,, these are two example, Night and day, black and white.... and there is a ton of business in the gray area!
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I might add, While a good number of people just assume any old computer image they have can be digitally recreated on a shirt with push button technologie, The vast number od people coming in for less then 12 digital print are more then happy to pay the 35 art charge when they see what we can do.
We are getting 45 - 60 for single custom digital shirts.
On large runs, Some people doing events that need 2700 shirts Have to have the design their grama or an employee did!
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Speaking as an artist in the industry I'd say art in extremely important. ;D :o 8) ;)
On this subject of customer-supplied art and cheap vs. expensive etc... when a customer insists that what they bring in to your shop is what they want, what is the role of the printer here? To give the customer exactly what they want, or teach them what would work even better? Clark's post with the crawdad is a good example... sometimes they need to be shown and taught what good design is. Going the extra mile to educate a little bit about effective design and what people will actually wear is a win-win... for some extra money, a design that will actually be WORN will bring in more business for everyone.
I'm working right now on a design... client wanted a very specific scene for a resort selling t's as souvies. They told me what they wanted and what they DIDN'T want. (Eagles. "Everyone here is selling eagles." It's in the town name.) I explained that what they wanted on the shirt would not work, since people likely wouldn't buy or wear it. Long story short, we came up with a design together that brought what they wanted together with what I thought (and we both agreed) would move more shirts off the shelves. (Yes, there's an eagle. People will expect one... there's a reason everyone is selling them.)
As a professional designer, I kind of feel it's my job to speak up about bad ideas (without actually saying "bad idea") and guide them toward a better solution. In my mind, they're not just hiring me to be a human pencil, but to develop a product that they can sell. The ability to draw a pretty picture or turn bitmaps to vectors is one thing, the ability to make a sell-able product comes from my years of experience in this industry.
Many of these shirts we design/print are getting re-sold. At the very least, they are advertising something. People are getting these shirts printed so that THEY can make that money back somehow. If the shirt doesn't get worn, the advertisement isn't being seen. As professionals, we can guide them to make wiser investments that will bring greater ROI... and that often involves risk... and that risk is best put into better art. Higher quality shirts is good, too, yes, but what do you look at first when you see a printed shirt? What makes people say "I like that shirt! Where did you get it?" ??
And it doesn't have to be 10-color $800 art, it can be a difference of $50 to make a big improvement, like Clark's crawfish. Not that much risk when you think about it.
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Art is subjective ! Just look at what Old Navy hets 35 bucks for :o
Now compare the percentage of income spent on advertising and review that...
Type in “old navy” in google... the only two not direct corporate websites are Wiki and O.N. facebook page...
Just type in “old” it is number 4 - for the word “old” dang...
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I used to be very firmly in the "No way people in my area will pay like that for artwork" camp . . . until I started trying for it. I was, and still am, very surprised at the number of people in my area that will pay for premium artwork, even if it increases the prices $1.00 or more per shirt. And trust me, the region I live in isn't known for its wealth.
I've found in the last few years that saying "there is no way I could charge that", no matter whether it is art or basic pricing isn't necessarily true. Sure, I lose customers based on price all the time. Then again, price is the last thing I try to compete on and I never worry about a customer that goes somewhere else to save a few dimes. After all, a customer who chooses you for price will leave you for price.
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After all, a customer who chooses you for price will leave you for price.
Same problem 40-50 year old men have with the 20-30 yo. girlfriends they try for... ;D
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If there's anything in this business that could truly make a customer dependent on you, it would be good artwork.
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On this subject of customer-supplied art and cheap vs. expensive etc... when a customer insists that what they bring in to your shop is what they want, what is the role of the printer here? To give the customer exactly what they want, or teach them what would work even better? Clark's post with the crawdad is a good example... sometimes they need to be shown and taught what good design is. Going the extra mile to educate a little bit about effective design and what people will actually wear is a win-win... for some extra money, a design that will actually be WORN will bring in more business for everyone.
Well said. <thumbs up smiley if we had one>
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(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/killergraphx/thumbsup.gif)
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Clark, I really, really like that picture. It's sweet and beautiful artwork.
But I do have one picky little question. Why does the spoon handle go "under" the apron strap on the craw's right side?