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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: GraphicDisorder on July 24, 2012, 02:00:27 PM
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We have now had 7 let go in the last few weeks. Any ideas? Ranging from really old, to a year old maybe and even a new one?
Haven't changed chemicals at all, still use drying cabinets, dip tank, and so on. Any idea?
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Don't forget the weather, the largest and least controllable variable.
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somebody was talking about the PH level in the diptanks causing issues. . I know your chems haven't changed but maybe the ph is dropping or something? Are you post exposing in the sun? it is hot out and I know heat is bad for mesh. Rollers? High tensions - like Sam high or "normal" high?
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Statics. We have set screens out near sun for 20-30 minutes at times, rare I would say. They do sit in my shop though, often warm out there. But they always have, don't see why we would just be seeing negative results, strung together like this at least.
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Is it the adhesive letting go or they are poping?
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We went years with mesh sticking just fine to static frames, then suddenly, every time we changed mesh we had to grind the frames down instead of just roughing them up a little, cleaned off any chemical residues, and still some would let go. Just when you think you know something...
Steve
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I had one last week where the adhesive let go along the bottom edge from corner to corner. I set it aside and noticed yesterday that there was now a tear in the mesh in the area that had pulled away from the frame. Weird crap.
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This is interesting. All the screens I have had come unglued were just bad gluing from the manufacture. Everyone had me convinced it was my chemicals. I don't use a dip tank so I would check on that. Are you losing them all at the same time. Just after they dry from reclaim before coating. That's when I lose all of mine. I have never lost on on press or when coated. I think the glue can handle anything but it seams the longer they are wet the more likely they will pop. Have you changed anything in the reclaim process. Maybe leaving them in the tank longer then before? Is a new guy cleaning them?
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Is it the adhesive letting go or they are poping?
Adhesive letting go.
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This is interesting. All the screens I have had come unglued were just bad gluing from the manufacture. Everyone had me convinced it was my chemicals. I don't use a dip tank so I would check on that. Are you losing them all at the same time. Just after they dry from reclaim before coating. That's when I lose all of mine. I have never lost on on press or when coated. I think the glue can handle anything but it seams the longer they are wet the more likely they will pop. Have you changed anything in the reclaim process. Maybe leaving them in the tank longer then before? Is a new guy cleaning them?
The only thing we have really changed about our process is we seem faster at it, my parents were doing it for the longest time, but most of the time our part time girl does them now, but she is quicker than my parents. So if anything they are in the tank less time and when they come out they go into a drying cabinet to dry. They are generally coated the next day. We have had them let go after reclaim before coating, also had a couple let go waiting to be reclaimed after use on the press. I am puzzled by it as it seems to be regularly happening now, so it's either just their time or we did something I am completely unaware of. Like I said though these are ranging from "newish" to a year or so old to a couple years old. All over the map.
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The only time I have had statics release the glue was when our local guy switched glue originally he used red mixed glue from Sefar and nothing could pull the mesh off the frame. He switched to some clear crap that had a spray activator and all our screens started to release. Fortunately he switched back.
We also had an issue with a haze remover from Franmar that you could not allow to touch the adhesive or it would break it down, forgot which it was but we trashed that and stick to CCI's renuit.
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Do you remove ink with a dip too? I noticed the kid here is just pushing way too hard on the inside of the screen scrubbing the ink degradent--once a good amount of the mesh to frame bond is delaminated, it goes in no time.
Don't know how this would happen with a brand new one though, past really rough handling or a bad glue job.
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We clean out all ink when they are removed from press.
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Well from all the info I have to say it was just their time. Since they were off all different ages and you didn't change anything there is not much you can do. Just keep working. I have had weeks of screens letting go followed by months with out one. If you keep getting then for the next week or two revisit it.
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Well from all the info I have to say it was just their time. Since they were off all different ages and you didn't change anything there is not much you can do. Just keep working. I have had weeks of screens letting go followed by months with out one. If you keep getting then for the next week or two revisit it.
That's all I can think as well. At least I hope. 7 so far, that can get expensive quick.
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two words....roller frames!!!
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two words....roller frames!!!
Some day. Between buying the building and a boat I need to breath lol.
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Brandt FYI you print better than a lot of people with roller frames do. Just saying :D
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Thank you sir. I feel like we hold our own. ;D
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I agree with Mike. Wow did I just say that? lol. I would look at your reclaiming. You said the new girl was a lot faster then your previous person. Is she pressure washing from the inside of the screen, holding the nozzle too close... You get the idea.
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A boat huh? I've been down that road...good luck buddy, hope you get your money's worth out of it.
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I got an 18.6 Champion bass boat in the back that has not seen water in over 6 years. Goes about 65 mph on the lake. Bought it back in '86 for like 12k. A new one now is like 35k and I'd only get about $3500 if I tried to sell it. I'll hold on to it (for now) in case I get some time to go fishing.
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Are all the screens from the same source? Sounds like not so good glue, or bad prep before stretching, etc.
Or someone snuck something evil into the reclaim tank (less likely)
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I got an 18.6 Champion bass boat in the back that has not seen water in over 6 years. Goes about 65 mph on the lake. Bought it back in '86 for like 12k. A new one now is like 35k and I'd only get about $3500 if I tried to sell it. I'll hold on to it (for now) in case I get some time to go fishing.
You are in Houston right? Wanna take it in some salt water? I'd make the trip over there for a good run into some brackish waters! :)
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No way Jose. I used to have an old fish and ski that I used in Galveston bay. I'd get bounced around well when ships came up the channel to the Port but it had high gunnels. This boat would be easily sunk if anchored down and fishing. Not to mention, I don't like what saltwater does to the motor internals and the chrome. :)
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Well, I was only trying to help you get out there and get some fishing done.
Could have wrote it off on your taxes as we would be talking shop the whole time I'm sure. ;)
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Are all the screens from the same source? Sounds like not so good glue, or bad prep before stretching, etc.
Or someone snuck something evil into the reclaim tank (less likely)
Same place.
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I just want to add a little bit more info (sorry i dont get on here much lol)....its been about 1 a week for 7 weeks.
90% of the time it's happened when i've pulled it out of the cabinet to put emulsion on. and then i yell "ARE YOU SERIOUS"
it's generally a 6-8" section that has separated from the side. within 2-3 days the whole side has come unglued.
I've always bought my screens from poconoscreen.
Some of these have been used probably 100 times over 5 years, at least 1 was only used once.
mesh #'s are from 137's, to 158's to 230's.
The only thing i have changed in the mix is changing to a pink degreaser by ICC chemicals that smells like cherries...just brush a light coating on there and hose it off...i dont ever put it on the 'frame' part.
when i do it, i always work from the back side of the screen, i have no idea what "my other people" are doing because i cant baby sit but i guess i will have to eavesdrop in there next time and re-teach.
i keep the drying cabinet on about 15-20 minutes tops and i think it maxes out at 100 degrees...(again, hasnt been an issue in the 5 years previous)
super frustrating....P.S., i couldnt stop him from buying this boat. lol :-|
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If you get a hundred cycles out of some of them, they're doing pretty good--although it's probably worth giving them a little crap if you cycled a screen once and it popped like that.
Sounds like they're putting decent tension on them at least. It's pretty hard to get a screen with 12 N/cm to pop like that, no matter how crappy you glue it. :)
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I don't have much to add to this but we did use statics for a few years. The only time any of our screens detached was when we bought from a particular supplier and I'm certain they didn't prep the screen properly or glue them properly. We have statics still that don't get used much but they are 5 years old and none of them are releasing, my guess would be poor quality screen making. They make those screens so that they will hold up to dip tanks and any other chems we throw at them, and if you're doing business as usual and they are failing then I think it's the source.
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I just want to add a little bit more info (sorry i dont get on here much lol)....its been about 1 a week for 7 weeks.
90% of the time it's happened when i've pulled it out of the cabinet to put emulsion on. and then i yell "ARE YOU SERIOUS"
it's generally a 6-8" section that has separated from the side. within 2-3 days the whole side has come unglued.
I've always bought my screens from poconoscreen.
Some of these have been used probably 100 times over 5 years, at least 1 was only used once.
mesh #'s are from 137's, to 158's to 230's.
The only thing i have changed in the mix is changing to a pink degreaser by ICC chemicals that smells like cherries...just brush a light coating on there and hose it off...i dont ever put it on the 'frame' part.
when i do it, i always work from the back side of the screen, i have no idea what "my other people" are doing because i cant baby sit but i guess i will have to eavesdrop in there next time and re-teach.
i keep the drying cabinet on about 15-20 minutes tops and i think it maxes out at 100 degrees...(again, hasnt been an issue in the 5 years previous)
super frustrating....P.S., i couldnt stop him from buying this boat. lol :-|
Thought: you mentioned the ICC degreaser, which is probably the most benign chemical to put on a screen. You can (and often should) degrease the frame. It's a good idea to thoroughly wash the mesh and entire frame on a regular basis, rinsing with a gentle flood. Think: "sterilize" on each frame. This prevents and solvent or chemical residues from spoiling otherwise perfectly degreased mesh before coating.
What might actually be a culprit is any haze remover (or ghost remover or whatever it might be called) that you might be using. Most haze removers can adversely affect stretch and glue frames.
Maybe if you outline each one of the steps and what chems are involved we can nail it down.
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I use 1-step franmar in the dip tank (and always have since day one)...
Then after a quick soak, pressure wash out everything that will come out at a reasonable distance from the screen/gun...
Anything left in there gets a mist of 660 Imagemate Reclaimer (always use this chemical) for emulsion, or a dab of 206 Imagemate "dehaze/Degrease" (i use this for ink degredant, always have, you can pretty much skip degreasing as well, its an all purpose cleaner for me, maybe it shouldn't be but as of now have not had an issue with any chemicals)
A rinse, then a quarter or smaller sized drop of this pink degreaser which is model #858, brush it on both sides then rinse thoroughly. Drip dry for a second then off to the drying cabinet. One cabinet holds 10, one holds 24. THe 24 one stays on a tad longer because it has more 'work' to do to dry them all. but i have pulled these "duds" out of both cabinets.
Screen girl told me her steps, it's all legit. I will need to ask his parents what they're doing. you would think if it was chemical based, it would be doing it on the 'short end' of the screens, where it runs off and soaks down into the washout booth...but its been the long end every time, about 6-10" down is where it starts usually.
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First, get that pink crap out of the shop. It's an abrader. They tried to push that stuff on me too and I told the guy I didn't want it on my screen and he had to demo it and did it anyway. Pissed me off.
That stuff makes an AWESOME hand cleaner though...so I guess keep it for that.
If the only thing that has changed is the person, they are doing something different...watch her work.
Did somebody recharge the chems in the tank and put too much in?
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First, get that pink crap out of the shop. It's an abrader. They tried to push that stuff on me too and I told the guy I didn't want it on my screen and he had to demo it and did it anyway. Pissed me off.
That stuff makes an AWESOME hand cleaner though...so I guess keep it for that.
If the only thing that has changed is the person, they are doing something different...watch her work.
Did somebody recharge the chems in the tank and put too much in?
Wait, it's that "The Pink Stuff" paste? With the gravely crap in it that smells like cherry candy? It's the worst. That is a degreaser AND a dehazer AND an abrader. In other words, it's screen death for statics. That means some of these screens are getting double doses of dehazer, AND the mesh is getting weakened by the abrader. No wonder the glue finally let go.
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BTW, for those unaware, and "abrader" is any of many screen chems or pastes with an abrasive medium added to "roughen up" the surface of the mesh in the degreasing process. It's a dinosaur from the old days where the theory was on new screens it would help the emulsion adhere better. It was supposed to be used just on the first degreasing/prep for new mesh.
Problem is it doesn't help the emulsion stick any better than a plain old properly degreased screen, and it shortens the life of the mesh considerably. Might was well take some 220 grit sand paper and go to town on it.
Shelly, bag up any of that pink stuff you have left and get it out of the shop. Consider it deadly poison for screens.
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no, that pink stuff makes GREAT hand wash. it's actually not caustic as it's meant to be a degreaser and no a dehazer.
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It sounds like the screens go through a lot of chemical cleaning each time around and like Evo said its weakening the mesh just enough. My theory as to why its releasing 6+ inches down on the long side is because thats where the most stress is put on the mesh from printing on the automatic. Every time that squeegee chops down its stressing the point where the mesh is attached. I believe you guys do a lot of discharge or WB as well and that usually means greater pressures. I wonder if some of those screens that let go on you had some really long runs or just happened to be used more often than others.
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BTW, for those unaware, and "abrader" is any of many screen chems or pastes with an abrasive medium added to "roughen up" the surface of the mesh in the degreasing process. It's a dinosaur from the old days where the theory was on new screens it would help the emulsion adhere better. It was supposed to be used just on the first degreasing/prep for new mesh.
Problem is it doesn't help the emulsion stick any better than a plain old properly degreased screen, and it shortens the life of the mesh considerably. Might was well take some 220 grit sand paper and go to town on it.
Shelly, bag up any of that pink stuff you have left and get it out of the shop. Consider it deadly poison for screens.
Ulano says that abrading the screen is still recommended when capillary film is used, as it doesn't "sandwich" the mesh as direct emulsion does.
Though Ulano was a little late on the change in industry thought that it was best to not use it on all screens, unfortunately, it does make a certain sense with film. Whether the increased adhesion outweighs the mesh damage and shortened mesh life is a great consideration.
On the other hand, Autotype's instruction's merely say "Prepare the mesh thoroughly"
Almost enough here for a new thread, though I think that we may have discussed abrader in the past, along with the Autotype micro photographs of damaged threads as well as the results of using cleansing powders and their remaining embedded particles.
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this pink stuff? it's useless. it's a stain remover, not a haze remover. the imagemate 260 you are using is better than this stuff.
http://www.sourceoneonline.com/item.asp?categoryID=4§ionID=26&subSectionID=51&subSection2ID=0&subSection3ID=0&attrCatID=0&attrIDs=0&catID=51&catTab=sub_section&productID=1945 (http://www.sourceoneonline.com/item.asp?categoryID=4§ionID=26&subSectionID=51&subSection2ID=0&subSection3ID=0&attrCatID=0&attrIDs=0&catID=51&catTab=sub_section&productID=1945)
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I've called the rep on this before--I'm pretty sure it IS their hand soap.
BTW, for those unaware, and "abrader" is any of many screen chems or pastes with an abrasive medium added to "roughen up" the surface of the mesh in the degreasing process. It's a dinosaur from the old days where the theory was on new screens it would help the emulsion adhere better. It was supposed to be used just on the first degreasing/prep for new mesh.
Problem is it doesn't help the emulsion stick any better than a plain old properly degreased screen, and it shortens the life of the mesh considerably. Might was well take some 220 grit sand paper and go to town on it.
Shelly, bag up any of that pink stuff you have left and get it out of the shop. Consider it deadly poison for screens.
Ulano says that abrading the screen is still recommended when capillary film is used, as it doesn't "sandwich" the mesh as direct emulsion does.
Though Ulano was a little late on the change in industry thought that it was best to not use it on all screens, unfortunately, it does make a certain sense with film. Whether the increased adhesion outweighs the mesh damage and shortened mesh life is a great consideration.
On the other hand, Autotype's instruction's merely say "Prepare the mesh thoroughly"
Almost enough here for a new thread, though I think that we may have discussed abrader in the past, along with the Autotype micro photographs of damaged threads as well as the results of using cleansing powders and their remaining embedded particles.
Cap film or indirect film... if anyone's still using it. :o
The real beef to me on stuff like this is that although film or emulsion sticks better on abraded mesh, so does ink. Bleh.
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Screen abraders where recommended back in the day mostly geared towards graphic printers not textile. The thing was manufacturers would use a screen one time only and print many thousands of a run with it, they required a rock solid screen with cap film that would never break down during the run.
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Just trying to make sure of what I have.
I have some pink stuff that smells cherry but it's Saati HR-6 (I think that is the number).
What is the scoop on that chemical?
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First, get that pink crap out of the shop. It's an abrader. They tried to push that stuff on me too and I told the guy I didn't want it on my screen and he had to demo it and did it anyway. Pissed me off.
That stuff makes an AWESOME hand cleaner though...so I guess keep it for that.
If the only thing that has changed is the person, they are doing something different...watch her work.
Did somebody recharge the chems in the tank and put too much in?
Wait, it's that "The Pink Stuff" paste? With the gravely crap in it that smells like cherry candy? It's the worst. That is a degreaser AND a dehazer AND an abrader. In other words, it's screen death for statics. That means some of these screens are getting double doses of dehazer, AND the mesh is getting weakened by the abrader. No wonder the glue finally let go.
It very well could be. I will take it out of the loop for awhile see if we get any differences.
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no, take it out permanently. that stuff is junk and I don't know why they continue to push it. Look up douglas grigar's pictures about what abraders do....
https://www.google.com/search?q=douglas+grigar+abrader&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS441US441&prmd=imvnso&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=S6oSUKuJBoiq8ASa5oGABQ&ved=0CE0Q_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=906 (https://www.google.com/search?q=douglas+grigar+abrader&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS441US441&prmd=imvnso&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=S6oSUKuJBoiq8ASa5oGABQ&ved=0CE0Q_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=906)
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Just trying to make sure of what I have.
I have some pink stuff that smells cherry but it's Saati HR-6 (I think that is the number).
What is the scoop on that chemical?
HR-6 should be the haze remover, HC-8 is the pink good smelling hand cleaner I believe.
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Saati has the haze remover that is pink and smells good but it is not the same thing as the hand cleaner and shouldn't be used for both. I think some of us are confusing the 2 products as them being the same thing, but they are quite different when it comes down to it.
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While we are on it... is that Saati stuff any good? I'm not all that impressed with it but I don't have any experience with anything else, so it could very well be the best and I'm just expecting too much (though I doubt that is the case).
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no, that pink stuff makes GREAT hand wash. it's actually not caustic as it's meant to be a degreaser and no a dehazer.
:P
"THE PINK STUFF DEHAZER/ DEGREASER"
http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=THE-PINK-STUFF--DEHAZER{47}-DEGREASER (http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=THE-PINK-STUFF--DEHAZER{47}-DEGREASER)
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no, that pink stuff makes GREAT hand wash. it's actually not caustic as it's meant to be a degreaser and no a dehazer.
:P
"THE PINK STUFF DEHAZER/ DEGREASER"
[url]http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=THE-PINK-STUFF--DEHAZER{47}-DEGREASER[/url] ([url]http://www.ccidom.com/products.php?product=THE-PINK-STUFF--DEHAZER{47}-DEGREASER)[/url]
I use the pink stuff all the time and it is a haze remover. MK162 you are thinking of their hand cleaner. We use that also and its the best hand cleaner out there. I would not use the pink stuff on my skin. Even the CCI rep recommends gloves when using it.
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Some day.
Some day..
I used to think like that, it never got me anything.
How's it working for you.. or should I ask how did it work for you because had that someday.. been when you first bought screens, would you be here complaining about your static frames breaking. No you wouldn't.. now stop being silly and go buy some real frames.
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Some day.
Some day..
I used to think like that, it never got me anything.
How's it working for you.. or should I ask how did it work for you because had that someday.. been when you first bought screens, would you be here complaining about your static frames breaking. No you wouldn't.. now stop being silly and go buy some real frames.
You are living up to your forum signature...
;D
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Some day.
Some day..
I used to think like that, it never got me anything.
How's it working for you.. or should I ask how did it work for you because had that someday.. been when you first bought screens, would you be here complaining about your static frames breaking. No you wouldn't.. now stop being silly and go buy some real frames.
Priorities my friend. Buying a auto, more embrodiery machines, hiring, and now buying the building was all way more important than rollers.
I wasn't really complaining btw just trying to figure out what was causing it.
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I wasn't really complaining btw just trying to figure out what was causing it.
That would be the reduction of the VOC's and good chemical compounds that are being reformulated to meet the "new and improved" EPA rules and regulations. Combine that with piss poor labor and the guy re-meshing screens cares more about what he's doing after work than making good screens for you, heck he's probably thinking he's doing his boss a favor by making these lower quality screens so that you'll send them back for re-mesh sooner.
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I just wanted to follow up on this and post that i had a total of 8 screens let go (1 per reclaim/weekly)...i quit using the pink stuff just as you guys suggested--its been 3 weeks now (3 reclaims) and i have not had one screen break...so to me that says this stuff was the problem.
I emailed the manufacturer an and I guess we'll see where they stand on it.
ICC Chemicals - 858 Pink Degreaser/Stain Remover
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I just wanted to follow up on this and post that i had a total of 8 screens let go (1 per reclaim/weekly)...i quit using the pink stuff just as you guys suggested--its been 3 weeks now (3 reclaims) and i have not had one screen break...so to me that says this stuff was the problem.
I emailed the manufacturer an and I guess we'll see where they stand on it.
ICC Chemicals - 858 Pink Degreaser/Stain Remover
If I remember correctly it says on the label to not let it get on or near the adhesive.
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Shelly...where are these frames from? And are they breaking or simply un-gluing from the screen?I use the 858 on and off, and have never had this problem. BUT i can say I have noticed an un-gluing problem with a particular screenmaker that I just started buying from.
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I've always gotten my screens from pocono screen. They're coming unglued.
I just checked the label and it doesn't say anything about getting it near the adhesive/on glue areas. Says scrub it on both sides and rinse thoroughly to sum it up...
:-/
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Ask Pocono if they know of any issues with there glue and certain cleaning products.
A few years back, CCI (not ICC) listed almost a dozen different cleaners and degradents with at least two or three carrying a warning to not use on glued frames.