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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: cclaud3 on July 13, 2012, 04:29:00 PM
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For automatic printers:
How much do your pallet arms flex during printing?
To rule out scenarios such as top colors that need less pressure, let's assume a white, single stroke, pfp on black.
Mine looks like about .25" - .50". I'm measuring from the outermost part of the pallet. Seems like a lot. It's basically going uphill as resistance increases.
How about you all:
• hardly any if at all
• maybe a few milimeters
• .25"?
This is causing more resistance at the bottom of the print as the arm is more rigid closer to the mounting point. If I back off the pressure then the top of the print doesn't always clear. Tried different speeds & squeegees angles.
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A couple millimeters on higher mesh screens that require 35-50psi on the printhead, but most of the time there is no real noticeable deflection of the pallet, maybe a mm. On some cases, when we are printing with 18-20 psi there is zero deflection.
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Mine looks like about .25" - .50". I'm measuring from the outermost part of the pallet.
A quarter to a half inch of deflection seems to me to mean something is seriously out of whack with your press.
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I would agree, a 1/4" is more than I've ever seen, and it's one of the things I always look at when I go into another shop. I always look at squeegee pressure and how far the pallets deflect because of that excessive pressure that I usually notice while watching.
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Thanks for the input.
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are you on an old gauntlet? . .we get a bit more deflection that I would like. it's a constant battle with squeegie pressure.
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No it's an electraprint. Less than 1 year old.
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Brown fails at everything.
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Ha. Did you have one?
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Brown fails at everything.
So...how do you feel about Brown's equipment? :)
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No it's an electraprint. Less than 1 year old.
Have a customer in Atlanta. Motivated is the name of their shop. Spent a Saturday leveling and plumbing the press. Put double bevels on and he is happy. Name is DJ Fiese. 770-329-4183. Give him a call.
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Brown fails at everything.
Let's put this in perspective, and perhaps take that comment with a grain of salt.
If I remember correctly, Shawn, your experience with Brown was soon after starting out, one of your first pieces of real equipment was an old, used, Brown (or maybe Harco) dryer that you had problems with old wire connections burning out due to age and corrosion and the resulting added resistance.
Hardly, experience with or background information an Electroprint Printers.
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A double bevel squeegee--I'll check it out. The rolling/bending of the 70 duros that came with the press sure doen't seem to help as flexible as the press is. I bought some triple duros that I'm going to try out. I'll call him, thanks.
The techs have been in several times since I bought it. They need to start hiring me to do installs and leveling--can do it in my sleep now.
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A double bevel squeegee--I'll check it out. The rolling/bending of the 70 duros that came with the press sure doen't seem to help as flexible as the press is. I bought some triple duros that I'm going to try out. I'll call him, thanks.
The techs have been in several times since I bought it. They need to start hiring me to do installs and leveling--can do it in my sleep now.
and what do the techs say about it? a common occurrence with these machines?
I agree with Shawn. sorry.
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Everything is "acceptable". I was just curious is all autos flex some or generally they are very rigid. I can flex the pallet by pushing down with my hand, standing away from it- not over it using my 230 lbs.
I have to use a fairly quick stroke speed otherwise it will nearly stop.
I've been living with this, but I was printing a little longer print the other day and it was really smashing the bottom of the print. Top was nice and smooth.
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Everything is "acceptable".
That is crap. A 1/4" to 1/2" of deflection is completely unacceptable. It might be an engineering problem with the press, which would mean its typical of the press, but it is still unacceptable.
There are pallet arms you can sit on and they won't deflect that much, let alone from squeegee pressure.
I can't even imagine the kind of problems that much deflection would cause for you :(
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I'm sure you could compensate a bit by setting platens to have less off contact at the outside ends, but that opens up a whole new set of problems. That much deflection will not only screw with squeegee pressures front to back, but also registration.
Is the arm itself bending or is the centre hub rocking on the shaft?
One last thing, I'm not sure about on a Brown, but on my machine I can move the screen clamps and platens farther away or closer to the center of the machine, making sure everything is as close as possible to the center shaft would give the machine less leverage for deflecting the platen arms.
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Not an uncommon problem especiacilly with older model M&R presses. Yes we would often compensate by having higher off contact on the load side of the platen. Unconventional but practical.
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Everything is "acceptable". I was just curious is all autos flex some or generally they are very rigid. I can flex the pallet by pushing down with my hand, standing away from it- not over it using my 230 lbs.
I have to use a fairly quick stroke speed otherwise it will nearly stop.
I've been living with this, but I was printing a little longer print the other day and it was really smashing the bottom of the print. Top was nice and smooth.
are you sure its not unlevel pallets or heads? just a thought. those browns may not be state of the art printers but they are made very solid and i find it hard to believe one thats a year old is having that major issue. a buddy of mine runs screen printing at badger sportswear and loves those electra prints.. they have several of them they use for small runs. i personally have never ran one.
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This machine has been leveled from core up at least 40 times. Numerous times by several techs. Typical remedy given is to speed up the stroke. Other suggestion is to check tightness of the tracks that the print heads glide down. Not very noticeable on left chest or upper chest prints. Anything in the 11" plus print height really shows the issue. I think they advertise a 21" max height- I would never have a need for that but I know MY machine couldn't do it anyway.
Yes, there are solid parts of the machine. I would not call it sturdy. I don't believe the pallet arms are sturdy enough. They have had me slow the machine's index speed down to prevent it from losing registration. I think they should have the outer screen frame support tied into the head, separate from the support/outrigger legs. Currently the outer edge of the screen rests on a horizontal support connected to the outriggers while the inner side is held by a more standard frame clamp. The horizontal support has a foam strip to prevent the screen from sliding around on it. But it requires some passes to have the screen settle. You can see where registration gets effed up. There is just too much movement in this and in the legs to maintain consistent registration.
They have replaced the legs with larger ones which have helped. They added more metal pieces in the hub to have it bite more into the registration gates.
I have been very patient with them, waiting months for them to send techs.
A few months ago a loud squeeking noise started during indexing. They can't figure it out. I've emailed videos and don't expect much. Quite frustrating. The engineer who designed it stated that he was fine with the noise and had no adjustments for it. Hoping they figure it out. You can hear it from the front of my building. Can't imagine they would be selling many of these at shows if they were making this noise in front of the customer.
They are very polite and responsive on the phone. I believe everything started on the wrong foot with an unexperienced installer. I did not know the right questions to ask...
They tell me that I'm the only one having these problems. Well I've talked with another owner and they are having the same exact problems. They have provided the same attempts of fixes. Haven't spoken with them since the fix, but at least I know I'm not imagining this stuff.
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wow.. i would demand another press
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The horizontal support has a foam strip to prevent the screen from sliding around on it. But it requires some passes to have the screen settle. You can see where registration gets effed up. There is just too much movement in this and in the legs to maintain consistent registration.
that is unbelievable, and this is a year old machine, their latest and greatest technology? Leveling 40 times, I bet that isn't helping the machine much. So the engineer is OK with the squeaking, fine -great. I am NOT happy with the squeaking, so FIX IT. . .I would direct them to this post and give them a chance to show how they handle issues. OR call M&R and see what they would do for you, hell, I bet they could fix it!
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There are several people aware of it, including the owner.
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thats aggravating, I feel for you. we are in a similar situation with one machine though not as bad and not with an auto thank god.
At some point you have to throw in the towel. We're at that point with our machine, I was patient and helpful and gave the mfg every option to fix it but they can't. I offered to give it back to them and made it clear that the machine does not and apparently cannot function as described and I'm done playing engineer for them.
It sounds like Brown is doing a similar thing to you and needs to buck up and take care of their lemon press on their own time, not yours.
My ?: What can you do when a mfg is stalling and not coming to the table to remedy the bad machine?
in many cases it feels like they are just stalling until some warranty or statute expires
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Funny, because some folks like Killer claim that the folks at Brown are great and helpful.
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I think they are definitely trying at least, from the sound if it, but at some point you just have to call it.
How will this issue ever be solved, by jerry rigging the press until it can barely print in reg? The machine needs to go back.
my case was different, both parties thought it could be modified. after machining some parts and lots of adjusting and thinking we got close but no cigar.
I think the lesson here is to put a timeline on it. Machine doesn't perform as advertised? Give then x weeks in writing to remedy and reject the press if they cant or won't. Some of us may be a little too accommodating.
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I love analogies so, just for the sake of it:
Would you buy a new car and work with the mfg over the course of a year if it couldn't go over 20 mph or stay on the road?
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My ?: What can you do when a mfg is stalling and not coming to the table to remedy the bad machine?
In a nutshell . . . not much.
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My ?: What can you do when a mfg is stalling and not coming to the table to remedy the bad machine?
In a nutshell . . . not much.
Really? So someone can just sell you something that doesn't work and you're stuck with it? No remedy here?
It's so strange to me to see this sort of thing happening. None of us would deliver the wrong shirts to a client and dick them around for a year. We'd replace or refund and move along. And this is no T shirt order, it's 10s of thousands of dollars of equipment in the case of this Brown.
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Funny, because some folks like Killer claim that the folks at Brown are great and helpful.
Frog, do you know anyone specifically besides him? He has an older hand-turned semi-auto. I'm running a 6/10 auto and bought a quartz along with a new dryer from them. I can PM a shop to you that has the same issues (just saying if proof is needed). BTW, I mean no hostility. They are absolutely friendly and apparently knowledgable. But that doesn't fix me up quickly.
I've got a considerable chunk of change that I paid in full to them and have no monetary leverage. I see the end of my 1 year parts/labor slipping away...
They originally thought it was the main roller bearing that engages the hub. It has been replaced twice and has nothing to do with the squeaking that I can tell.
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BTW, I mean no hostility. They are absolutely friendly and apparently knowledgable. But that doesn't fix me up quickly.
This is where folks like us can get burned, sometimes badly. There has to be some recourse in situations like this, it's not right. And honestly, if any company treats anyone who treated them so fairly and patiently like this then they surely deserve some hostility and others deserve to know. I think it's more than fair and accommodating to spend your time trying to save them the cost of a returned machine at your own suffering and expense. They should be thankful for the help and now it's their turn to make it right and help you out.
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Agreed
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BTW, I mean no hostility. They are absolutely friendly and apparently knowledgable. But that doesn't fix me up quickly.
This is where folks like us can get burned, sometimes badly. There has to be some recourse in situations like this, it's not right. And honestly, if any company treats anyone who treated them so fairly and patiently like this then they surely deserve some hostility and others deserve to know. I think it's more than fair and accommodating to spend your time trying to save them the cost of a returned machine at your own suffering and expense. They should be thankful for the help and now it's their turn to make it right and help you out.
Ask for a 100% money back guarantee. If we do it they all should do it! If they wont give it to you ask yourself why!!!!!
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Really? So someone can just sell you something that doesn't work and you're stuck with it? No remedy here?
Pretty much. Unfortunately, things are stacked in favor of the manufacturer in these cases. As Rich mentioned, unless you have some sort of money-back guarantee, you are pretty much at the mercy of the manufacturer. Legally, the deck is stacked in their favor as well. All they have to do is demonstrate the machine works as advertised (not works perfectly, but merely works) or that they have made good faith efforts to resolve problems.
It sucks, but that is how it is.
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I have the smaller 7 station ElectraPrint (2011 full auto Model) and have no deflection problems to speak of. I do however have other issues, all pretty much minor to this point, but aggravating just the same. Before I call Brown with these problems, I will need to take some time to make sure it is not user error causing these issues. There is nothing more frustrating when you KNOW it's not you but the tech on the other end of the phone is convinced otherwise.
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That's the junior model right--very compact? I looked at it while at the show.
I hear you on ruling out user error. I spent the first few weeks troubleshooting and keeping a log of what I had tried with measurements, etc---before I even called them. Some pallets were .25 inch off in the corners ( before I adjusted it). Had them walk me through the leveling process while on the phone. 5 hours later it was a little better. Can probably do the whole machine in 1.5 by myself.
The last time they used dial indicator tools--the way it should have been done the first time. They made new calculation an now have the outrigger feet buried into the ground-- seems much better than before when they just touched. Made for a lot of clanging on the concrete.
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Yes, it's the smaller compact model.
I now find myself using my manual more than my auto and that needs to change.
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BTW, I mean no hostility. They are absolutely friendly and apparently knowledgable. But that doesn't fix me up quickly.
This is where folks like us can get burned, sometimes badly. There has to be some recourse in situations like this, it's not right. And honestly, if any company treats anyone who treated them so fairly and patiently like this then they surely deserve some hostility and others deserve to know. I think it's more than fair and accommodating to spend your time trying to save them the cost of a returned machine at your own suffering and expense. They should be thankful for the help and now it's their turn to make it right and help you out.
Ask for a 100% money back guarantee. If we do it they all should do it! If they wont give it to you ask yourself why!!!!!
Rich, you guys have the bar way up higher than most can even consider approaching. From my experience, other mfg's are letting gear out their door that would never pass even an initial stage of mfg at M&R. They can't offer the service and warranty you do because many cannot seem to engineer and build their gear properly. Some mfg's don't even have unique part numbers for critical parts or keep track of the design revisions and changes to their products. These operations would be literally bankrupt in a matter of months trying to support and guarantee their product the way you do. It's simply outside their ability, try as they might, and personally I consider it unethical to mfg in this way, taking payment for products and services you cannot and will not deliver. It's senseless.
The only reason every single piece of major gear in our shop isn't M&R is the simple fact that the other, less capable manufacturers often have features and configurations better suited to us; it's not price or any other factor. But it's all for naught if the gear doesn't work and they don't care. At least that's the lesson learned here.
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This seems like a bit of a push on Brown to me. I don't have an electraprint, I don't know anyone who does--but to say the 'gear doesn't work and they don't care', when it's a problem that M&R themselves had years ago, it seems like an odd argument.
I'm not bashing M&R---two of the three presses here are M&R, and I love working with and on them. I've had great experiences with the support there, past a lack of availability on older parts.
But at the same time, I can get just about any part for the old Hopkins, and it has decades on either M&R I run.
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definitely agreed foo.
I think there might have been a lot of my own pent up frustration with not brown but another mfg in that comment. :- none of my comments were meant to be brand specific, just using examples.
but I stand by the comments overall. if the above story is giving most of the picture then no, brown doesn't really care. if they did the problem would be solved by now.
and I do believe that very few mfg could make the guarantee that M&R does. I should clarify that I don't think M&R is over achieving necessarily but more that the rest are falling so far below the passing mark that they often cannot even be considered for a major purchase.
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the biggest thing is a brand new press shouldn't need service or a tech. at least not until it's time for a tune-up. Presses should go out working like they are supposed to.
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I don't know about you guys, but I would like to hear Brown chime in here and give an explanation, sort of defend themselves a bit. There are two sides to every story, not saying it's the OP's fault at all, just interested in the real nuts-n-bolts of the story. Somethings out of whack here, literally.
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I just emailed this link to Brown
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I don't know about you guys, but I would like to hear Brown chime in here and give an explanation, sort of defend themselves a bit. There are two sides to every story, not saying it's the OP's fault at all, just interested in the real nuts-n-bolts of the story. Somethings out of whack here, literally.
I have seen manufacturers leave, or reduce their presence on a forum that posted negative comments.
Completely counter-productive in my mind.
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Mike at Brown has certainly cared and been there for me any time I've called with an issue.
I think my biggest problem is my ways of screen printing are not the same as Brown's, therefore I MAY be trying to get my ElectraPrint to function in a manner for which it was not intended to function. I'll get it all sorted out eventually, but like I said, I'm using my manual more now just to save me the aggravation during my busy time.
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Got a call, they are shipping a new core in about a month.
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I just cant believe that it would take emailing the owner this thread to get some real action. But at least they are acting, some other companies do absolutely nothing. Ask Inkman.
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To be honest....
This is an inexpensive "entry model" press, no?
Not to say that your issue is acceptable for anything, but I wouldn't expect
filet mignon from a McDonalds hamburger if you know what I mean.
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It may be entry level but when you have been in the business 30+ years building machines you should be putting out a good product whether entry level or top of the line.
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I just cant believe that it would take emailing the owner this thread to get some real action. But at least they are acting, some other companies do absolutely nothing. Ask Inkman.
That's a good point. What I was trying to say earlier was that I give a lot of these mfg a B or maybe a C+ for effort, it just seems they are up against too much with their own product sometimes and need to know when enough monkeying around is enough. I bet Brown would have saved $ by just hauling this one back to the plant and sending out another. Or maybe testing properly before shipping in the first place, duh. It's not the end of the world to screw up, it's going to happen and I fault no one for that. It's what you do after it happens that really matters.
I hope your core fixes the issues and gets the press running and hope I didn't sound like I was bashing anyone, I meant everything I said to be 'generally speaking' more or less and have no blind loyalty to any particular brand or machine, just being frank with my opinion based on experience and experiences I hear about on here.
eb has a point but I also concur that this sort of flex issue is unacceptable regardless. Don't sell it at any price if it can't do it's basic functions like hold up it's screens and platens properly.
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It's all relative though. Alan who prints at 10PSI (kidding) is going to have a heck of a lot
less deflection than waterbased printers at 50 PSI. Even the PSI is relative to the physical
location of the squeegee however.
I challenge any of you to take a 2"x4" piece of square steel tubing 8 ft long attached at
one end only and place 40 pounds of pressure across a 16" width at the opposite
end, without deflection. Not as easy as it seems.
The original Multiprinters had pallet tip supports to help with this, apparently they were delightful,
aside from getting in the way of printing sweatshirts and totes.
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That's one of the difficult things to assess--I've gotten buckets of ink that you could just about NEED one or two hundred of pounds of pressure on the squeegee before it was clearing--it's tough to make a call on the press being at fault when there are so many other pieces of equipment, techniques, and supplies playing a large role.
I used to print on an auto that had some similar characteristics--the key for us was in keeping screen tension high, squeegees sharp, and inks on the thin side.
I'm glad to hear things are getting worked out as far as funny noises and registration though....
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I should have mentioned, the new core is a redesigned/improved version. 2 or 3 components have been changed.
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I wanted to post and update to the press situation. Here's the rundown.
They replaced the center/core of the original press. I believe it was in September 2012. Had to wait a few more months from when I posted this. Everything else was reused. Same issues with sloppy registration, creaking, squeaking on indexing, etc. The 1st & 2nd machine creaked horribly during the indexing. Technician couldn't get 4 or 5 color test job to consistently print in register. Technician left and I kept working with it.
Re-leveled press a few more times hoping for a miracle. Complained. Walked through everything numerous times over the phone for the next couple of months. Next step was for owner's son to fly out and see what was up with it. Had to wait a couple of months for the appointment. I believe they thought it was something I was doing? Or since I was able to output to some degree they thought it was ok? The machine would print but not very cleanly or reliably.
So he arrived in May 2013. We setup a 5 color test job and could not get it to hold. Adjustments resulted in no change in print or wild over corrections. Spent 1/1.5 days evaluating (can't remember)? Agreed that something was up so they needed to replace from scratch.
Replacement delayed once or twice but received in July 2013. Got old press broken down and new one put in. New one seems to be working fine.
So, to summarize, the process took an extreme amount of time. Understandably (but quite frustrating) they are a smaller shop that are several states away from me and don't have the manpower to be onsite in a reasonable amount of time. They sent out a couple people while I had the 1st press and spent a day re-leveling everything...after hours we could get some passable prints but setting up the next job was just as difficult. But the new machine appears to be the ticket. They modified & reduced the footprint of the press, which included numerous changes. The pallet arms are shorter which keep flexing to normal. They also made a couple of basic mods per my request. They compensated me (their offer not by my request) with 2 additional print heads, more youth pallets & an entirely new squeegee system that was released this year. BTW, the new squeegee/floodbar system is much nicer and you can actually-easily change angles and flip them out of the way to pull screens out.
So you may be asking why I didn't push for a refund.
It was the next step, I believe both parties knew that was the only option after agreeing to try the last replacement press. Neither party got heated and we are still working together. I was a little stuck too, as the shop was wired specifically for their equipment so there would be time/money/hassle in rewiring for another make due to the other mfg's presses needing air & chillers. I had already dropped 11k in the wiring (upgraded service, too), security & a new roll down door for the print area.
If the press keeps working like it has been then everything will be fine. Registration has been acceptable and the press is pretty quiet. I believe they are now making the new machines to the specs of the new one I received. Guess that is all for now.
Thanks.
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One of my press operators came from a shop in Indiana that Bought an electraprint and within months had them replacing the machine. Finally brown pulled the machine and refunded them. We are minutes from Brown and I would never buy anything made by them. The real problem is how do you build a good press if no one in the company knows how to print. The days of sloppy prints are gone and customers expect more. There target market are those shops just starting out that think getting a compressor and chiller is gonna cost them to much money and all electric is so much easier when in reality for a small press you can have less than $1500 in a compressor and chiller. The one thing that bothers me about our industry is all the manufacturers that will sell you something and say it does what it clearly can not do. This is were i give M&R props, they don't advertise stuff there presses can't do in a production environment.