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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: ScreenPrinter123 on May 30, 2012, 09:19:33 AM
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When you are coating your print side first (at least I do -- and then the ink side/squeegee side last) do you try to have the coater's edge barely touching the print side to increase your stencil? I've always done that, as I've found that to create a thicker stencil, but sometimes I'm trying to have the coater touch the screen so little that it sags and drips. Is that the correct method or should I be pressing harder against the mesh on the print side on my first coat(s)?
Thanks.
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No you need to have firm pressure on the coaters edge at all times both sides. Your not trying to create the actually thickness like taping drywall. Every time you make a pass with the coater it leaves a certain amount of emulsion then when you finish up on the ink side all the emulsion is pushed to the shirt side creating the thickness.
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No you need to have firm pressure on the coaters edge at all times both sides. Your not trying to create the actually thickness like taping drywall. Every time you make a pass with the coater it leaves a certain amount of emulsion then when you finish up on the ink side all the emulsion is pushed to the shirt side creating the thickness.
Agreed...
Also dry the screens with the print/shirt side facing down.
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So you'd say apply more or basically the same pressure when doing your last coat on the ink side (applying more is the method I've done, but that is of course assuming that I was applying very little pressure on the print side)?
Thanks.
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I will agree with Mike in that you need more pressure. It may take more strokes to get your stencil but you'll have more consistency and better stencils overall if you use the same amount of pressure and keep everything as uniform as possible. Just gliding the scoop coater over the mesh leaves too many things that could affect the thickness of the emulsion deposit. Viscosity and solids content, along with temperature and flow characteristics of the emulsion will start affecting stencil thickness instead of number of coating strokes, speed and pressure. You're just inviting a few more variables into the equation in my opinion by doing it that way.
I'd not add or decrease pressure on the first or last and just keep everything the same throughout so when you do get to where you can start measuring you'll have more consistency and that is key to stencil thickness once you have the thickness you want.
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I will agree with Mike in that you need more pressure. It may take more strokes to get your stencil but you'll have more consistency and better stencils overall if you use the same amount of pressure and keep everything as uniform as possible. Just gliding the scoop coater over the mesh leaves too many things that could affect the thickness of the emulsion deposit. Viscosity and solids content, along with temperature and flow characteristics of the emulsion will start affecting stencil thickness instead of number of coating strokes, speed and pressure. You're just inviting a few more variables into the equation in my opinion by doing it that way.
I'd not add or decrease pressure on the first or last and just keep everything the same throughout so when you do get to where you can start measuring you'll have more consistency and that is key to stencil thickness once you have the thickness you want.
push until you break one screen and than back up. If the mesh is not creaking and making noises, you are not pushing hard enough!
OK, that might be a little too much, but really, only a little too much. You should be pushing hard! As Alan said, it will give you consistency with the emulsion thickness on the screen which in turn will give you consistency (predictability and repeatability) on the press!
pierre
pierre
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Check somewhere around 11th minute
How to coat a screen with emulsion - Screen Printing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk-8Fws67SA#ws)
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Your guys are all nuts. Pushing hard enough to break the screen? Firm pressure is fine. If your screens are flat and your mesh is tight then all you need to do is put enough pressure so that the blade of the coater is tight against the mesh. I coat 10 to 20 screens at a time and if I was pushing as hard as your guys are saying I would be worn out after doing them. I coat fast 2/1 with the sharp side. I get a nice 12 to 20 EOM depending on mesh count (give or take 3% to 4%). Stencil thickness is important. I know there are tons of ways to do everything but pushing as hard as some of you is way over kill. Consistent firm pressure with consistent speed is key. Also check your screens. I hold a screen up a light to check thickness and smoothness of the coat. If you hold the screen up to the UV safe light you will be able to gauge the thickness of your emulsion depending on mesh count and color of mesh. I have been doing this for a while and can tell when I am too light on the emulsion or too thick. Its not a perfect way of doing it but it does give you a small level of quality control before the screens are dry. If you see the screen has light and dark areas just redo your coating on that screen. Then check it again.
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I am going to go out on a limb and assume Pierre was exaggerating how hard to push. And yes firm pressure is important, as Pierre stated enough to hear a little creaking is good.
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I am going to go out on a limb and assume Pierre was exaggerating how hard to push. And yes firm pressure is important, as Pierre stated enough to hear a little creaking is good.
I know Pierre was joking but what if someone else reading this didn't know. I will say you can not push too hard on the coater. It takes practice to control the coater. I think a beginner should understand its all about consistency. If your just trying to push really hard you will not be able to control your speed. Its just like printing white ink. You have to find the right balance of pressure and speed to lay down a smooth consistent layer. Once you get it down its easy.
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I find that pushing with firm pressure takes away the chance of inconsistent thickness if you tried to be to soft.
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Firm pressure and a constant speed and angle , I find coaters will speed up on the top half of screen and also start to roll the coater up too soon , you can see that the emulion will be thinner in that area. But basically practice makes perfect, 20-25 - 23"31" screens will make you tired.
I've always used a 5gal. pail as my support for a screen , which can be a little sore on the back but works for me ( not too tall). Floor, Waist or table height coating has never felt comfortable for me.
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Your guys are all nuts. Pushing hard enough to break the screen? Firm pressure is fine. If your screens are flat and your mesh is tight then all you need to do is put enough pressure so that the blade of the coater is tight against the mesh. I coat 10 to 20 screens at a time and if I was pushing as hard as your guys are saying I would be worn out after doing them. I coat fast 2/1 with the sharp side. I get a nice 12 to 20 EOM depending on mesh count (give or take 3% to 4%). Stencil thickness is important. I know there are tons of ways to do everything but pushing as hard as some of you is way over kill. Consistent firm pressure with consistent speed is key. Also check your screens. I hold a screen up a light to check thickness and smoothness of the coat. If you hold the screen up to the UV safe light you will be able to gauge the thickness of your emulsion depending on mesh count and color of mesh. I have been doing this for a while and can tell when I am too light on the emulsion or too thick. Its not a perfect way of doing it but it does give you a small level of quality control before the screens are dry. If you see the screen has light and dark areas just redo your coating on that screen. Then check it again.
I wish I could measure the actual pressure I'm applying to the mesh when coating but I'll just have to guess at it being around 6-8lbs and I don't hear any crackling or popping noises of the mesh, just the sound of metal gliding across mesh at around 10"/sec.
Are you getting 12-20 "%" EOM or 12-20 "microns" EOM with the sharp edge? I've compared both edges a lot over the years and will continue to do so every once in a while but the rounded edge has always worked better for us, especially when getting into the thicker stencil needs. I'm shooting for 20% EOM for 156-205 and 12-15% for 225-330, 30% all the way up to 50%+ for some of our 83-140's. I can build a thick stencil with the sharp edge but it takes a bit more work so we have always used the rounded edge for every mesh count and every stencil thickness we were trying to achieve. I am going to go out and try to coat a screen with the Saati PHW Red and the sharp edge of the coater on some low mesh counts and I'll report back here as soon as I can. Is there any reason why you like the sharp edge versus the round?
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Your guys are all nuts. Pushing hard enough to break the screen? Firm pressure is fine. If your screens are flat and your mesh is tight then all you need to do is put enough pressure so that the blade of the coater is tight against the mesh. I coat 10 to 20 screens at a time and if I was pushing as hard as your guys are saying I would be worn out after doing them. I coat fast 2/1 with the sharp side. I get a nice 12 to 20 EOM depending on mesh count (give or take 3% to 4%). Stencil thickness is important. I know there are tons of ways to do everything but pushing as hard as some of you is way over kill. Consistent firm pressure with consistent speed is key. Also check your screens. I hold a screen up a light to check thickness and smoothness of the coat. If you hold the screen up to the UV safe light you will be able to gauge the thickness of your emulsion depending on mesh count and color of mesh. I have been doing this for a while and can tell when I am too light on the emulsion or too thick. Its not a perfect way of doing it but it does give you a small level of quality control before the screens are dry. If you see the screen has light and dark areas just redo your coating on that screen. Then check it again.
I wish I could measure the actual pressure I'm applying to the mesh when coating but I'll just have to guess at it being around 6-8lbs and I don't hear any crackling or popping noises of the mesh, just the sound of metal gliding across mesh at around 10"/sec.
Are you getting 12-20 "%" EOM or 12-20 "microns" EOM with the sharp edge? I've compared both edges a lot over the years and will continue to do so every once in a while but the rounded edge has always worked better for us, especially when getting into the thicker stencil needs. I'm shooting for 20% EOM for 156-205 and 12-15% for 225-330, 30% all the way up to 50%+ for some of our 83-140's. I can build a thick stencil with the sharp edge but it takes a bit more work so we have always used the rounded edge for every mesh count and every stencil thickness we were trying to achieve. I am going to go out and try to coat a screen with the Saati PHW Red and the sharp edge of the coater on some low mesh counts and I'll report back here as soon as I can. Is there any reason why you like the sharp edge versus the round?
Alan,
I am not sure if it is that I keep the emulsion in the refrigerator (cold thicker body) or if I am doing something else different that is giving me my results. I get 12 to 20 percent of EOM when coating with Aquasol HV sharp side 2/1 on my 123 - 230 mesh. I haven't measured them in a while. I can't use the round side. I get way to much emulsion lay down. I do use firm pressure. I know what Pierre is talking about cracking or mesh noise. Most of the time its the screens that are not glued as well as others. I am going to measure a few of the screens that I have in the shop and see what they are at. I would hate to mislead anyone. I don't try to get really high EOM. I think for white inks EOM is great but for top colors or printing on light colored shirts you can get great results with very low EOM. I will get back to this in a few hours.
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OK I just checked a few screens that I have right now.
1 - 86 was at 28% (I never use this screen)
3 - 123 they were 13- 16% EOM
6 - 155 they at 11-12% EOM (surprised all 6 were that close)
2 - 230 they were 8-11%
1 - 305 it was at 7%
When I was measuring them a while back I was always between 3 and 5 percent on the same mesh.
They are a little lower but still fine for what I need them for. I know when I coated these I was in a hurry so I am sure that played into it. I have been swamped and have been rushing everything lately. I guess I need to measure them a little more.
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I feel the same way about EOM as you when it comes to underbasing, or especially all white designs on dark garments. I like to keep EOM ratios lower on spot color work and high on underbasing and white on dark. You just don't need 25% EOM on a red print going on top of an underbase white, it's a total waste of emulsion and ink.
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I feel the same way about EOM as you when it comes to underbasing, or especially all white designs on dark garments. I like to keep EOM ratios lower on spot color work and high on underbasing and white on dark. You just don't need 25% EOM on a red print going on top of an underbase white, it's a total waste of emulsion and ink.
Could not agree more. I think that high EOM on top colors can be a major issue when printing wet on wet. That extra ink will get flattened out and expand then start mixing with touching colors after being smashed by a few screens. I still need some education on printing 5 to 6 colors wet on wet in a row. I am sure I will just get another flash before I get it down. I really don't have time for the frustrations.
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I feel the same way about EOM as you when it comes to underbasing, or especially all white designs on dark garments. I like to keep EOM ratios lower on spot color work and high on underbasing and white on dark. You just don't need 25% EOM on a red print going on top of an underbase white, it's a total waste of emulsion and ink.
Could not agree more. I think that high EOM on top colors can be a major issue when printing wet on wet. That extra ink will get flattened out and expand then start mixing with touching colors after being smashed by a few screens. I still need some education on printing 5 to 6 colors wet on wet in a row. I am sure I will just get another flash before I get it down. I really don't have time for the frustrations.
I've been chasing that dream of 5-6 wow in a row for years, and for bold spot colors on top of an underbase...I don't want to say forget about it, but it's hard to do and sometimes you can do absolutely everything right and it won't work, but sometimes the moons and stars align and you're good. Now sim process on darks and 8 color spot jobs wow on light garments, all day long.
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I guess I am just trying to do something I shouldn't be trying to do. It wouldn't be the first time. Now I know what to get the business for its 4th year in business. A new flash.
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I guess I am just trying to do something I shouldn't be trying to do. It wouldn't be the first time. Now I know what to get the business for its 4th year in business. A new flash.
What size press do you have? S-type right? How many flashes do you have for it now?
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I have a 10 color E-type with one flash. I have the multiprint program so I can send it around again if needed. I will be getting a flash with the stand so I can move it around where needed. Right now my flash is in head 3 and has not moved. I haven't had that many issues with one flash but I know another one will make everything easier.
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Having read all the replies, I must say that the info given was a bit overwhelming. The one thing that should be done to improve coating is flipping the screen instead of turning it. This allows the emulsion to be applied in opposite directions and will help with the basic function of bridging the mesh with emulsion. All the other stuff is nice but flipping helps answer the question. Also on a side note you should always end up coating the ink side last.
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I have a 10 color E-type with one flash. I have the multiprint program so I can send it around again if needed. I will be getting a flash with the stand so I can move it around where needed. Right now my flash is in head 3 and has not moved. I haven't had that many issues with one flash but I know another one will make everything easier.
Oh hell yeah, you need that second flash. I can't wait to hear how much easier your life has become. I thought that maybe you were talking about adding a third flash to a 12 or 14 color press. I'd get that flash in there ASAP. A second flash on an 8 color is a great addition, but on a 10 color, I'd say it's a "must-have" accessory.
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The one thing that should be done to improve coating is flipping the screen instead of turning it. This allows the emulsion to be applied in opposite directions and will help with the basic function of bridging the mesh with emulsion.
I kind of do this (but for a different reason)... I'd really need to see some microscope close ups of how this really makes a difference. I just don't get it... in theory it sounds plausible, but in practice I'd think the physics just doesn't work out like that. As long as you coat both sides I'd think that it will "ooze" around the fibers enough to "leech" into every nook and cranny.
If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong... just going of some practical thinking.
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Gilligan and Printficient,
This was recently a discussion I had with someone at my office - about just flipping or turning the screen to the other side -- I kinda sided with Printficient because of a video I saw (maybe it's the one posted here recently on coating) -- but lately, we've just been going the path of least resistance, hoping Giligan is right and that it makes no difference. Has anyone tried both methods with the same amount of coats and noticed any difference in printing opacity?
Secondly, is there a point at which I should just give up on trying to achieve halftones with coating many times? I'm going to give a go on 7/7 tomorrow on a 150 s mesh (w/chromablue) because quite frankly I thought a 4/2 -- which someone recommended and which I tried today -- didn't end up creating all that great of a thick stencil - perhaps I'm pursuing a lost cause at trying to get a popping white on a first hit? At any rate, a lot of the halftones shot out on the 4/2, but definitely not all. So I am wondering if it gets to a point that the thicker you go with the EOM, the less likely the halftones will shoot out? Assuming you have your exposure unit dialed in perfectly, I am wondering if the halftones would blow out by the time you were able to remove all the layers of emulsion on the stencil? With the 4/2 the halftones didn't "melt" out like with the thinner EOM -- I had to work at them and then it was either stop and let some of them remain closed or start blowing out the ones that were already shot out correctly if I continued on shooting out the screen. Anyone? Beuller?
Thanks.
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Though I agree with you, I also believe that our human hands/eyes aren't the way to determine if it is "just as good".
Maybe an auto coater could coat exactly the same... but our eyes on a print aren't a good enough judge to make a scientific conclusion. Throwing this thing under some electron microscope or something that gives us more details deep down in there might give us a better scientific answer.
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Sounds,like you need some one to spend a little time,with you. Coating 7/7 times wow! And trying to retain halftones at that thickness yikes. Seriously you hear a ton about oem it does not mean everything needs to be a rubber gasket thick. Stepping up to higher mesh counts is just as important as all the other factors when achieving good half tones etc. developing a screen when exposed properly does not require all that much effort even for the smallest dots the screen ca handle, if you have to really work at it your over exposed and yep at that point you will blow out all the low percentage dots.
I have always been taught to flip a screen while coating but then I spent a couple years working with an auto coater that only rotated the screen as I was told just like gilligan said gravity etc does the job fine filling in the knuckles.
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you are really overthinking this.
the pressure you use should be enough to insure positive contact of the coater with the screen but should never be enough to distort or deflect the mesh from the pressure of the coater.
Oddly enough the amount of contact energy applied is directly related to the tension of the mesh.
you can push a bunch harder on a screen that is at 40Nm without deflecting the mesh. But use that same pressure on a screen that is at 25 Nm and you will deflect the mesh.
As I said before it is a touch , a feel, a learned mechanical process that if you have to actually think about you are over thinking it and most likely building in failure results from over complexing the process.
just for fun let me throw this at you....what about head pressure, no the the stuff you are thinking about but the amount of hydraulic pressure you get from the amount of liquid in the coater.
Just like diving into a pool the deeper you go the higher the pressure is on your body. likewise a full coater will offer more hydraulic load to the mesh than will a half full coater.
In terms of consistant coating and best EOM this is far more a factor than how hard you push the coater into the screen once you have made good contact.
test it for your self. take a 1/2 inch length of PVC pipe and a 1 inch length of the same size PVC pipe . Set the screen flat on a table shirt side up. Set both pieces of PVC pipe on the screen so they are standing upright and fill each to the top with your emulsion. See which one bleeds or pushes more emulsion through the screen sooner....head pressure baby, there is more weight in the taller pipe because there is more liquid column in the taller pipe thus more energy to push through the screen which is the whole idea when coating.
fill your coater 2/3 full at least keep a firm but reasonable contact pressure and stroke it till is shines, flip it and hit it again and you are good.
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Gilligan and Printficient,
This was recently a discussion I had with someone at my office - about just flipping or turning the screen to the other side -- I kinda sided with Printficient because of a video I saw (maybe it's the one posted here recently on coating) -- but lately, we've just been going the path of least resistance, hoping Giligan is right and that it makes no difference. Has anyone tried both methods with the same amount of coats and noticed any difference in printing opacity?
Secondly, is there a point at which I should just give up on trying to achieve halftones with coating many times? I'm going to give a go on 7/7 tomorrow on a 150 s mesh (w/chromablue) because quite frankly I thought a 4/2 -- which someone recommended and which I tried today -- didn't end up creating all that great of a thick stencil - perhaps I'm pursuing a lost cause at trying to get a popping white on a first hit? At any rate, a lot of the halftones shot out on the 4/2, but definitely not all. So I am wondering if it gets to a point that the thicker you go with the EOM, the less likely the halftones will shoot out? Assuming you have your exposure unit dialed in perfectly, I am wondering if the halftones would blow out by the time you were able to remove all the layers of emulsion on the stencil? With the 4/2 the halftones didn't "melt" out like with the thinner EOM -- I had to work at them and then it was either stop and let some of them remain closed or start blowing out the ones that were already shot out correctly if I continued on shooting out the screen. Anyone? Beuller?
Thanks.
Take everything you said here and dont do it anymore. That will be the start of fixing your problems. You are doing way too many passes on those screens. Unless your trying to stop a bullet you do not need emulsion to be that thick.
What screen mesh are you using to try and get halftones to wash out?
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Sounds,like you need some one to spend a little time,with you. Coating 7/7 times wow! And trying to retain halftones at that thickness yikes. Seriously you hear a ton about oem it does not mean everything needs to be a rubber gasket thick. Stepping up to higher mesh counts is just as important as all the other factors when achieving good half tones etc. developing a screen when exposed properly does not require all that much effort even for the smallest dots the screen ca handle, if you have to really work at it your over exposed and yep at that point you will blow out all the low percentage dots.
I have always been taught to flip a screen while coating but then I spent a couple years working with an auto coater that only rotated the screen as I was told just like gilligan said gravity etc does the job fine filling in the knuckles.
I'll try to post to let you know how the bullet stopping stencil comes out :).
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Gilligan and Printficient,
This was recently a discussion I had with someone at my office - about just flipping or turning the screen to the other side -- I kinda sided with Printficient because of a video I saw (maybe it's the one posted here recently on coating) -- but lately, we've just been going the path of least resistance, hoping Giligan is right and that it makes no difference. Has anyone tried both methods with the same amount of coats and noticed any difference in printing opacity?
Secondly, is there a point at which I should just give up on trying to achieve halftones with coating many times? I'm going to give a go on 7/7 tomorrow on a 150 s mesh (w/chromablue) because quite frankly I thought a 4/2 -- which someone recommended and which I tried today -- didn't end up creating all that great of a thick stencil - perhaps I'm pursuing a lost cause at trying to get a popping white on a first hit? At any rate, a lot of the halftones shot out on the 4/2, but definitely not all. So I am wondering if it gets to a point that the thicker you go with the EOM, the less likely the halftones will shoot out? Assuming you have your exposure unit dialed in perfectly, I am wondering if the halftones would blow out by the time you were able to remove all the layers of emulsion on the stencil? With the 4/2 the halftones didn't "melt" out like with the thinner EOM -- I had to work at them and then it was either stop and let some of them remain closed or start blowing out the ones that were already shot out correctly if I continued on shooting out the screen. Anyone? Beuller?
Thanks.
Take everything you said here and dont do it anymore. That will be the start of fixing your problems. You are doing way too many passes on those screens. Unless your trying to stop a bullet you do not need emulsion to be that thick.
What screen mesh are you using to try and get halftones to wash out?
LOL. Experimenting always sounds dumb at first, I guess - but I guess I'm just a newb at the end of the day. I was able to shoot out decent halftones with a 2/2 on a 150 s mesh, but going lower than that mesh count was not happening with the halftones, nor was I expecting it to. I, like some others, am just trying to create a thicker stencil to see what significant difference, if any, a 2/2 has over a 1/1, a 4/2 has over a 2/2, and tomorrow, a 7/7 over a 4/2 :). If I don't see a glaring difference, I'll stop spinning my wheels -- by difference, I mean how much more pop a white print would have on a dark color shirt. If there exists no dramatic difference, then 1/1 and 2/2 work just fine for me.
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There is no real wrong answer when coating your screen. Some people need a thick stencil and some do not need one. It all depends on how you print. For us we don't ever go below a 140 coated 2/2. That's on the low end. We stay mostly in the neighborhood of 160-180-230 coated 2/1 and 2/2 for our underprints. It's all about the stroke, pressure, speed, off contact, flash time, smoothing screen, ink type, additives (reducers and soft hand), mixing before printing, ect. Emulsion thickness is a small part of it. What you want is emulsion consistency. We have had Kiwo, Murikami, and CCI all check our screens and they are consistant with the proper EOM. What it boils down to is your technique. It takes practice to get good consistant coating down.
Are you using the sharp edge or the round edge on your coater? A 4/2 round edge is a lot of emulsion being laid down.
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You wont have much luck with halftones when coating a 7/7, or a 4/2 for that matter. I've never coated a screen 7/7, I think a 5/5 was the thickest I ever did and the stencil was about 300 microns thick, and I wouldn't have tried any fine halftones with that. To do fine line halftones, generally a thinner stencil is used but you can get halftones to come out on 200 micron stencils, you better have dense film and a powerful exposure system.
If you coated a 150/48 with a 4/2 and the stencil wasn't thick, then something is really wrong. That 4/2 should put you close to a 150 micron stencil, 100 micron EOM, which is about as thick as two business cards. Depending on the openness of the artwork, shirt color and fabric thread density, you should have been able to deposit a significant layer of ink. It's hard to say if it could be a one hit white but if you're tring to print really wide open "stop sign" type designs, then you're wasting your time chasing a one hit print. On thinner/smaller designs stencil thickness determines ink deposit but as your stencil's open area increases, it has less affect due to surface tension so you have to defeat that surface tension by having a thicker stencil and higher mesh tension. There comes a point where to defeat that surface tension on a 12" stop sign print, your stencil would have to be very thick (not worth doing) and your screen/mesh tension would need to be extreme (80-100+ newtons, certainly not feasible) and simply doing a print flash print through a normal stencil gives you good results without having to get crazy with your screen specifications.
Don't do what I did for a year and chase the one hit ghost and just let it happen when the job specs allow it to happen. It's certainly possible and attainable on many occasions but sometimes you'll waste a ton of time trying to engineer a stencil for a one hit and it's not possible due to other variables. I rounded up a few print swatches today that we're one hit jobs and I'll take pictures of them tomorrow. I think you'll be disappointed when you see just how limited the opportunities to achieve one hit status if you don't specifically pre-engineer every job for it. Most of the time your customer wants a giant open area design so you have to give it to them with as little effort as you can so you can make money.
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If there isn't a difference in ink deposit from a 2/2 coated screen and a 7/7 then "Houston, we have a problem" is all I have to say. Stencil thickness is directly related to ink deposit thickness no matter what other variables you try to throw into the mix. You can achieve different ink deposits with the same stencil thickness and what not by adding and/or changing many of he other variables, but that direct relationship has and will always be there. You can manipulate that relationship but it's one of those screen printing laws that you can't ignore.
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Alan go to bed.....lol :D although I could and would talk shop all night. When are we going to get a chat for this place?
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When you are coating your print side first (at least I do -- and then the ink side/squeegee side last) do you try to have the coater's edge barely touching the print side to increase your stencil? I've always done that, as I've found that to create a thicker stencil, but sometimes I'm trying to have the coater touch the screen so little that it sags and drips. Is that the correct method or should I be pressing harder against the mesh on the print side on my first coat(s)?
Thanks.
I always try to have good contact with the screen so I achieve an even stencil. Going slower or one more coat usually is the best way to achieve a thicker coat.
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You wont have much luck with halftones when coating a 7/7, or a 4/2 for that matter. I've never coated a screen 7/7, I think a 5/5 was the thickest I ever did and the stencil was about 300 microns thick, and I wouldn't have tried any fine halftones with that. To do fine line halftones, generally a thinner stencil is used but you can get halftones to come out on 200 micron stencils, you better have dense film and a powerful exposure system.
If you coated a 150/48 with a 4/2 and the stencil wasn't thick, then something is really wrong. That 4/2 should put you close to a 150 micron stencil, 100 micron EOM, which is about as thick as two business cards. Depending on the openness of the artwork, shirt color and fabric thread density, you should have been able to deposit a significant layer of ink. It's hard to say if it could be a one hit white but if you're tring to print really wide open "stop sign" type designs, then you're wasting your time chasing a one hit print. On thinner/smaller designs stencil thickness determines ink deposit but as your stencil's open area increases, it has less affect due to surface tension so you have to defeat that surface tension by having a thicker stencil and higher mesh tension. There comes a point where to defeat that surface tension on a 12" stop sign print, your stencil would have to be very thick (not worth doing) and your screen/mesh tension would need to be extreme (80-100+ newtons, certainly not feasible) and simply doing a print flash print through a normal stencil gives you good results without having to get crazy with your screen specifications.
Don't do what I did for a year and chase the one hit ghost and just let it happen when the job specs allow it to happen. It's certainly possible and attainable on many occasions but sometimes you'll waste a ton of time trying to engineer a stencil for a one hit and it's not possible due to other variables. I rounded up a few print swatches today that we're one hit jobs and I'll take pictures of them tomorrow. I think you'll be disappointed when you see just how limited the opportunities to achieve one hit status if you don't specifically pre-engineer every job for it. Most of the time your customer wants a giant open area design so you have to give it to them with as little effort as you can so you can make money.
Going after that ghost, Alan... Will post one hit pics tomorrow (hopefully). 5/5 chromablue on 150 s mesh - rounded edge.... "Ka-Chow" (Yes, Cars reference).
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Holy crap that is THICK! When are done you can probably just peel it off. ;)
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You wont have much luck with halftones when coating a 7/7, or a 4/2 for that matter. I've never coated a screen 7/7, I think a 5/5 was the thickest I ever did and the stencil was about 300 microns thick, and I wouldn't have tried any fine halftones with that. To do fine line halftones, generally a thinner stencil is used but you can get halftones to come out on 200 micron stencils, you better have dense film and a powerful exposure system.
If you coated a 150/48 with a 4/2 and the stencil wasn't thick, then something is really wrong. That 4/2 should put you close to a 150 micron stencil, 100 micron EOM, which is about as thick as two business cards. Depending on the openness of the artwork, shirt color and fabric thread density, you should have been able to deposit a significant layer of ink. It's hard to say if it could be a one hit white but if you're tring to print really wide open "stop sign" type designs, then you're wasting your time chasing a one hit print. On thinner/smaller designs stencil thickness determines ink deposit but as your stencil's open area increases, it has less affect due to surface tension so you have to defeat that surface tension by having a thicker stencil and higher mesh tension. There comes a point where to defeat that surface tension on a 12" stop sign print, your stencil would have to be very thick (not worth doing) and your screen/mesh tension would need to be extreme (80-100+ newtons, certainly not feasible) and simply doing a print flash print through a normal stencil gives you good results without having to get crazy with your screen specifications.
Don't do what I did for a year and chase the one hit ghost and just let it happen when the job specs allow it to happen. It's certainly possible and attainable on many occasions but sometimes you'll waste a ton of time trying to engineer a stencil for a one hit and it's not possible due to other variables. I rounded up a few print swatches today that we're one hit jobs and I'll take pictures of them tomorrow. I think you'll be disappointed when you see just how limited the opportunities to achieve one hit status if you don't specifically pre-engineer every job for it. Most of the time your customer wants a giant open area design so you have to give it to them with as little effort as you can so you can make money.
Going after that ghost, Alan... Will post one hit pics tomorrow (hopefully). 5/5 chromablue on 150 s mesh - rounded edge.... "Ka-Chow" (Yes, Cars reference).
Why so thick with that much coverage? Was this for printing on mesh one hit?
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That's some good looking stencil right there, love it. But, a one hit with that much open area is going to be tough. The text with distress should look great with one hit, but the other areas I see looks like it's a bit too open. Is that going to be white ink on black? Can't wait to see the pics. I took some pics of a one hit white on black AA's today so I'll try to get them uploaded later on.
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But, a one hit with that much open area is going to be tough.
Johnny Raincloud.
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But, a one hit with that much open area is going to be tough.
Johnny Raincloud.
I have to agree with Alan. Another thing why did you use a 150 mesh? If the goal is to lay down a one hit you should use the lowest mesh you can and still hold the design. A 150 mesh with a 300 to 400 Micron stencil sounds "wrong". Don't get me wrong I am not beating you up. I do the wrong thing alot. I have printed with 305 mesh when I should have used a 123 because that is the only screen I had. I am always trying things that people say will never work. You know 50% of the time they are right. The other 50% I learn something. Have fun with your thick screen. My guess would be you will have to use alot of pressure to clear it. If you use too much pressure on a screen with that much open area you will not get the advantage of the thick stencil. You will be pushing the stencil into the shirt and your squeegee will close the gap of the screen and the shirt. What is that stencil like 500% EOM.
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That is a heck of a stencil.
I have to agree with Alan. Another thing why did you use a 150 mesh? If the goal is to lay down a one hit you should use the lowest mesh you can and still hold the design. A 150 mesh with a 300 to 400 Micron stencil sounds "wrong". Don't get me wrong I am not beating you up. I do the wrong thing alot. I have printed with 305 mesh when I should have used a 123 because that is the only screen I had. I am always trying things that people say will never work. You know 50% of the time they are right. The other 50% I learn something. Have fun with your thick screen. My guess would be you will have to use alot of pressure to clear it. If you use too much pressure on a screen with that much open area you will not get the advantage of the thick stencil. You will be pushing the stencil into the shirt and your squeegee will close the gap of the screen and the shirt. What is that stencil like 500% EOM.
I'm no expert compared to many on here, but it seems to me that the pressure change is in the flooding of the stencil, not so much the printing of it--unless your ink is very thick, and/or you don't 'fill' your stencil.
The open area of a 150/48 is a higher percentage than an 125/70 or an 86/100. Printing pressure from my observations is pretty well directly coupled to open area, all other variables (close to) the same.
I've been itching to get some of the S thread on to do some testing myself, but getting my ass handed to me right now... (posting while screens are drying. ;D )
Looking forward to seeing what the print looks like.
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[/quote]
I have to agree with Alan. Another thing why did you use a 150 mesh? If the goal is to lay down a one hit you should use the lowest mesh you can and still hold the design. A 150 mesh with a 300 to 400 Micron stencil sounds "wrong". Don't get me wrong I am not beating you up. I do the wrong thing alot. I have printed with 305 mesh when I should have used a 123 because that is the only screen I had. I am always trying things that people say will never work. You know 50% of the time they are right. The other 50% I learn something. Have fun with your thick screen. My guess would be you will have to use alot of pressure to clear it. If you use too much pressure on a screen with that much open area you will not get the advantage of the thick stencil. You will be pushing the stencil into the shirt and your squeegee will close the gap of the screen and the shirt. What is that stencil like 500% EOM.
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Because a 5/5 on a 110 s mesh would drop entirely too much ink :).
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That is a heck of a stencil.
I have to agree with Alan. Another thing why did you use a 150 mesh? If the goal is to lay down a one hit you should use the lowest mesh you can and still hold the design. A 150 mesh with a 300 to 400 Micron stencil sounds "wrong". Don't get me wrong I am not beating you up. I do the wrong thing alot. I have printed with 305 mesh when I should have used a 123 because that is the only screen I had. I am always trying things that people say will never work. You know 50% of the time they are right. The other 50% I learn something. Have fun with your thick screen. My guess would be you will have to use alot of pressure to clear it. If you use too much pressure on a screen with that much open area you will not get the advantage of the thick stencil. You will be pushing the stencil into the shirt and your squeegee will close the gap of the screen and the shirt. What is that stencil like 500% EOM.
I'm no expert compared to many on here, but it seems to me that the pressure change is in the flooding of the stencil, not so much the printing of it--unless your ink is very thick, and/or you don't 'fill' your stencil.
The open area of a 150/48 is a higher percentage than an 125/70 or an 86/100. Printing pressure from my observations is pretty well directly coupled to open area, all other variables (close to) the same.
I've been itching to get some of the S thread on to do some testing myself, but getting my ass handed to me right now... (posting while screens are drying. ;D )
Looking forward to seeing what the print looks like.
Yup - hard flood, soft print. I'm looking forward to seeing it too - never tried a stencil this thick - probably won't ever again too :).
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But, a one hit with that much open area is going to be tough.
Johnny Raincloud.
I have to agree with Alan. Another thing why did you use a 150 mesh? If the goal is to lay down a one hit you should use the lowest mesh you can and still hold the design. A 150 mesh with a 300 to 400 Micron stencil sounds "wrong". Don't get me wrong I am not beating you up. I do the wrong thing alot. I have printed with 305 mesh when I should have used a 123 because that is the only screen I had. I am always trying things that people say will never work. You know 50% of the time they are right. The other 50% I learn something. Have fun with your thick screen. My guess would be you will have to use alot of pressure to clear it. If you use too much pressure on a screen with that much open area you will not get the advantage of the thick stencil. You will be pushi But, a one hit with that much open area is going to be tough.
Johnny Raincloud.
I have to agree with Alan. Another thing why did you use a 150 mesh? If the goal is to lay down a one hit you should use the lowest mesh you can and still hold the design. A 150 mesh with a 300 to 400 Micron stencil sounds "wrong". Don't get me wrong I am not beating you up. I do the wrong thing alot. I have printed with 305 mesh when I should have used a 123 because that is the only screen I had. I am always trying things that people say will never work. You know 50% of the time they are right. The other 50% I learn something. Have fun with your thick screen. My guess would be you will have to use alot of pressure to clear it. If you use too much pressure on a screen with that much open area you will not get the advantage of the thick stencil. You will be pushing the stencil into the shirt and your squeegee will close the gap of the screen and the shirt. What is that stencil like 500% EOM.
ng the stencil into the shirt and your squeegee will close the gap of the screen and the shirt. What is that stencil like 500% EOM.
That 150/48 actually looks like a standard 83 under a loupe and is easier to clear than your standard 110/81 mesh, it just doesn't have the thread thickness of a regular lower mesh count. He should be able to print with very little pressure in the chopper cylinder, we use around 18-22psi on 150/48. Set your print speed at 25 and go down from there until it clears completely. Depending on the ink's characteristics, you might clear the screen at 20"/sec.
Raincloud...out.
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I think this particular piece of art would have been better served on a 135/48. Same thread thickness as here but, holy jesus, does a 135 throw ink. Tension may come into play though as the 135 S can't quite take as much as the 150 S in terms of n/cm.
{Out of the three counts with 48 micron threads- 135, 150, 180 -the 135 is by far the most delicate. It would appear there's 'strength in numbers' regarding tpi and screen failure.}
And when I say tension may come into play I've noticed that you have got to be deadly accurate with your fill and stroke using the 135 S. Too much pressure and you will indeed have a very self defeating thick stencil with tons of open area plowing uneven slabs of ink onto your garments in part of the image and laying it down just on top in other image areas. I don't know how you all printing HD deal with those super skinny thread/low tpi screens with the sky high EOM. I feel like you'd have to have a spit polished and fine tuned masterpiece of an auto press to get the repeatability needed and probably still have to deal with ink dilatentcy and other little rheological changes the whole way.
Anyways I agree with 'ol cloudy here, probably going to have issues with the big open areas and need a p/f/p and that will likely be way too much ink unless you want a little mini HD look, which can be cool done right but maybe not so cool all over your chest while you play sports.