TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Prosperi-Tees on May 26, 2012, 01:56:14 PM
-
I heard that the micros are the weak point in M&R only from what I have read. But really never heard why. I have heard Anatols micros are great but again never heard why. So what are the differences and what makes one better than the other.
Oh and how about Browns micros. They advertise it as "direct drive" but again doesn't explain what it is or why its better.
-
No problem here with m&r micros.
-
Anatol seems to be okie dokie and can see the settings with old fart bifocals.
Now if I just knew what I was doing.
-
I own both, and I prefer M&R only because its what I am used to. The anatols look like a great system, but like I said I am used to the M&R style. If you need to visually look at something while microing, then the anatol has a more visual aspect, but once your used to the press, I dont look at anything, just do it by feel.
-
I've been doing some work on another shop's older Gauntlet, and the micros seem decent to me. The manual recommends making sure the micros are snug before loosening the levers to adjust, but I have to do the same with my Vastex or the springs will pull the printhead up against them as soon as the levers are loosened. The M&Rs don't seem to have an inordinate amount of lash in the threads. Like Jasonl says, it's pretty much a feel, but not hard to acquire.
-
well if you use tri-loc and good screens you dont need micros....
-
well if you use tri-loc and good screens you dont need micros....
pretty much true, but yeah you still need them.
-
I depends on what you cut your teeth on. The micros on my Anatol are great.
-
Well I'm cutting teeth on an old javelin and it takes awhile to register and of course the screen moves when you tighten down the clamps. I am getting ready for a more modern press, I guess anything newer will be better than that.
-
Well I'm cutting teeth on an old javelin and it takes awhile to register and of course the screen moves when you tighten down the clamps. I am getting ready for a more modern press, I guess anything newer will be better than that.
If your screens are not dead flat they will still move a little on clamp down tri-loc or not. Trust mi I know
-
Hey Mike I know your an an old Jav for quite awhile what was your reg procedures?
-
Hey Mike I know your an an old Jav for quite awhile what was your reg procedures?
A hammer!
Seriously I would line up by eye as close as possible lock the clamps and if off by a small amount I would tap the screen corners with a hammer.mhell of a lot easier than the micros.
Making sure them screen hangers are absolutely in,plane with each other is vital as well.
-
Lol I guess I need to get a hammer all I have is a huge rubber mallet.
-
For years, those of us with presses without any built-in adjustment, referred to our helper as our "fine adjustment tool". The more sophisticated option, and the opposite of your rubber mallet, would be a dead blow hammer.
This brings to mind a scandal from years ago when some contractor was scamming the taxpayers by grossly overcharging for hammers to the military. On the invoice and other paperwork, they were referred to as "manually operated fastener installation devices".
-
The Anatol, RPM, Brown, and I think MHM all use a direct drive system. Basically all of the micros are independent of each other.
On an M&R, Progressive, Tuf, and many manual presses. One of the front/back movements is attached to the left/right movement causing a slight ark when used.
IMHO the direct drive systems are easier to use (and much easier to learn on), but as others have pointed out with experience both systems do the same job.
Sounds to me, your biggest problem now is the manual screen clamps... ;)
-
The Anatol, RPM, Brown, and I think MHM all use a direct drive system. Basically all of the micros are independent of each other.
On an M&R, Progressive, Tuf, and many manual presses. One of the front/back movements is attached to the left/right movement causing a slight ark when used.
IMHO the direct drive systems are easier to use (and much easier to learn on), but as others have pointed out with experience both systems do the same job.
Sounds to me, your biggest problem now is the manual screen clamps... ;)
Thanks. That explains it alot better.
-
+1 for spot colors post.
m&r style are 'x-y' style micros. also present on some other brands. imho, they are inferior to systems with the above described direct drive. we've had two presses in the shop, different brands, same micros and they both exhibited the same issues that led to my humble opinion on them. The horizontal motion is an arc rather than a straight movement, they are more macros than micros, they feature an excessive amount of 'tail whip' and the anti-droop plate needed to lock them in place doesn't function correctly or hold it's position with heavier frames in production.
Claims that pre reg systems negate any need for micros are pure hyperbole and should be disregarded. Micros serve a variety of needs on press and, for us, we typically need a straight horizontal nudge and thats all. We use pin lock, which is similar to trilock but a little more advanced and no, every screen is not dead nuts in reg but they are very close. The anatol we have is a sad joke compared to m&r in terms of build quality but the use of their micros has saved us countless payroll hours and general aggravation.
I want to start a campaign to get m&r to update their micros so we can happily buy and use their machines which are otherwise the jam.
-
I want to start a campaign to get m&r to update their micros so we can happily buy and use their machines which are otherwise the jam.
One of the main reasons we are looking at MHM over the sportsman.
-
the micros on my Sportsman work Ok but the one on the Chameleon manual press are poor IMO.
-
the micros on my Sportsman work Ok but the one on the Chameleon manual press are poor IMO.
They both are exactly the same. If you are not happy with the way they work send me your contact information and I will tell you how to adjust them for correct operation. They should work the same.
-
rich, how about upgrading the micros? You guys have improved almost every other aspect of your presses, but they still have virtually the same micros.
-
rich, how about upgrading the micros? You guys have improved almost every other aspect of your presses, but they still have virtually the same micros.
Do it man!
-
rich, how about upgrading the micros? You guys have improved almost every other aspect of your presses, but they still have virtually the same micros.
The micros on our presses are used very successfully by 99.9 percent of our customers and is the same on every one of our presses whether they be manual or automatic. To be quite honest this is the only place I hear about them not working. I think and of course I could be wrong that the presses spoke of here are not adjusted properly as the comment about the auto being o.k. But the Chameleon is bad when in fact they are the same. There are tens of thousands of these micros out there and if this was a weak link rest assured we would address it. Let's see how the micro works if we show how to adjust it properly.
-
It may be out there, BUT I don't know why with today's technology someone has not invented a press that can line up the screens and adjust with laser sights or something more tech. like. Just saying.
-
Rich, mine work fine, as do most of the other people's here. It's the design and how they function that needs updating.
-
Actually there was some R&D in this area more than a decade ago. It was a designated pallet that used lasers and servo micros. It actually worked pretty well as a stand alone but was too impractical for everyday use. It was abandoned and later replaced with the more sensible Tri-lock
-
I know my micros work great ( that is when we actually have to use them ) and once we get the Direct to Screen I really hope we do NOT have to use them at all...
sam
-
I know my micros work great ( that is when we actually have to use them ) and once we get the Direct to Screen I really hope we do NOT have to use them at all...
sam
You will.
-
mhm has a concept along those lines in the auto reg machines they offer. no lasers, it uses a servo driven zero out and mirrored movement process on the micros to do it I believe. they all start at true zero, you put screens in the clamps (remember those are pinned screens that are held identically on each head), adjust screen two to al ign with a test print from one, hit the auto reg, and every other heads micros imitate that movement. when done you hit a command and zero them back out.
never heard of how it works in real life but a nice concept.I wholeheartedly support having a true zero on presses in any case
Rich, so you don't think theres any room for improvement from the current m&r micros? I know they ain't broke necessarily but it sounds like at least a few of us would like to see them fixed.
-
Sam, bruther just give it up, your going to have to use micros unless you trap your art heavy..even with the DTS your going to get, cuz every screen is not the same theres always a little something off. I use newmans and yes they are close but not 100%.
Darryl
-
The last time that I was preparing art for Ace to make me transfers, they told me to leave off the reg marks because their set up, which now included DTS, did not need them.
Not the same as them saying that they didn't need micros on their flat bed presses, but it still surprised and impressed me.
-
The last time that I was preparing art for Ace to make me transfers, they told me to leave off the reg marks because their set up, which now included DTS, did not need them.
Not the same as them saying that they didn't need micros on their flat bed presses, but it still surprised and impressed me.
Andy the only reason to use reg marks even with the tri-loc is for pre-registering the films but even then I only use a .1 point line it is so thin it does not wash out. On press if off by any amount it is a tiny amount and only requires a look at the art itself to see which way to adjust, if I had a DTS I would not use reg marks either because it is easy enough to judge what you need to adjust just off the printed art.
-
Rich... technically I have heard a few complaints about the M&R micros.
Maybe that .1% just lives on these forums. *shrug*
-
D...I plan on making it perfect...my newmans are all within 2 newtons of each other, using a cts, a dialed in machine ect...will reduce all the variables....
sam
-
Rich... technically I have heard a few complaints about the M&R micros.
Maybe that .1% just lives on these forums. *shrug*
Maybe. All I can say is we don't hear complaints from our customer base unless something is wrong with the adjustment and when adjusted properly they are happy.
-
Having used MHM micros I would cry if I had to go back to anything else.
-
not to sound like a jerk...but are the people who are complaining about the micro ever trained on their machine by an M&R tech or at the factory or are they just jumping in and expecting to work it perfect? I know I have been out to Chicago to train on each piece of equipment i have purchased and each time we have it the ground running with zero problems.
thoughts
-
I don't know, I'd say running the same press full time for 4 years is good training, and then running it off and on for the last 8 is a good refresher course.
The micros work fine, they are jut outdated when you look at other presses. It's one feature that could stand a redesign to make it more user friendly.
The idea of McDonalds is to make everything as simple and straightforward to any person that might have to step in and fill that role. That is what press manufacturers should be going for.
I am golden on the micros. Probably in the top 5 that have ever worked here. But that is from experience...and frankly the harder you make it to put that "experience" in an employees hands, the more work you are making for yourself.
-
I don't know, I'd say running the same press full time for 4 years is good training, and then running it off and on for the last 8 is a good refresher course.
The micros work fine, they are jut outdated when you look at other presses. It's one feature that could stand a redesign to make it more user friendly.
The idea of McDonalds is to make everything as simple and straightforward to any person that might have to step in and fill that role. That is what press manufacturers should be going for.
I am golden on the micros. Probably in the top 5 that have ever worked here. But that is from experience...and frankly the harder you make it to put that "experience" in an employees hands, the more work you are making for yourself.
Out of curiosity when was the last time a M&R tech adjusted your micro,s?
-
I don't know....like I said, they work fine, I can adjust out dang near anything it 1 try. It's the design of them that is lacking. I think MHM micros are more straightforward. Less steps, no unlocking..which means less slack.
-
not to sound like a jerk...but are the people who are complaining about the micro ever trained on their machine by an M&R tech or at the factory or are they just jumping in and expecting to work it perfect? I know I have been out to Chicago to train on each piece of equipment i have purchased and each time we have it the ground running with zero problems.
thoughts
No ever showed me how to use them. I find it to be quite a PITA. I still don't have the hang of if and it has been 4+ years.
-
The phone would be the best to get a lesson. Use our 800 number and I will be happy to walk you through it!
-
Rich, how's about a video!
-
Rich, how's about a video!
Its not about how you use them as much as how they are set up on the press. I would bet the micro's need some proper adjustment themselves!
-
I've used the micros on several different brands of autos and if I were designing a press from scratch, it would probably be with the MHM micros with our RPM being second. I haven't setup a job or used the MHM micros but I played with one at a show and I liked them a lot. Without ever having ran one, I would feel more comfortable if there was a way to "lock" them in place, but I also don't have any idea how they get around that function where every other press I know has locks on their micros. When I ran a sportsman to help out a local shop over a weekend I did struggle with the micros but I never thought about it being a deficiency in the design, only user error. Setting up jobs on our sidewinder is different and it certainly takes me longer when I have to start microing versus the auto, but I chalk that up to never having used the press enough to become comfortable with them. I'd like a few days and a dozen jobs on each press to really give my opinion on which is better, but there was a huge difference in the centurian and RPM. Our new press was very easy to get used to and just from the change in micros alone probably shaved a few hours off of production the first week we had it.
-
I actually rebuilt two x-y micro machines from the ground up- one Hopkins BWM, one M&R. They were nearly identical in form and function as is workhorse I believe, not sure who copied who on those. But anyways, I understand the adjustments intimately from doing those rebuilds and, even finely adjusted to perfection, I dislike the design and the overall experience of using them. I'd be very surprised if anyone took an x-y style micro over a 'direct drive' style in a good 'ol fashioned taste test without the blind brand loyalty or stubbornness we all tend to pick up over time. (not busting anyone's balls here...okay I'm busting Sam's balls a little ;))
I would gamble that about half of the issues out there are from mis-adjustment of the micros, they do get out of adjustment over time and we all know how people tend to screw with parts of machines they don't fully understand. The other half I think are legitimate concerns that there is a better way to do this. Rich, I gotta say, that makes no sense to think that no one has the same experience as the users of this forum, we're just a cross sampling of screen printers from around the world after all and we're all rooting for ya and would like to use more of your equipment but simply don't like this style of adjustment. The other folks in our camp outside of this forum, well, it's likely you don't hear from them because they bought another brand.
-
The last time that I was preparing art for Ace to make me transfers, they told me to leave off the reg marks because their set up, which now included DTS, did not need them.
Not the same as them saying that they didn't need micros on their flat bed presses, but it still surprised and impressed me.
Andy the only reason to use reg marks even with the tri-loc is for pre-registering the films but even then I only use a .1 point line it is so thin it does not wash out. On press if off by any amount it is a tiny amount and only requires a look at the art itself to see which way to adjust, if I had a DTS I would not use reg marks either because it is easy enough to judge what you need to adjust just off the printed art.
DTS brings a whole other level of problems to the table trust me. We have had DTS for a while (19th Iscreen made) and still put reg marks on all the art. I can almost guarantee we do more setups than anyone on this board also (48 piece average order, 4500+ pieces daily) They are always a great backup in case you get outta wak with the micros. I will agree that I cant stand using them especially on our diamondback. We have reg marks built into art templates though so they are always there without adding them. Might be a bit more work for some. As for dts there are many variables such as screen tension, squeegee pressure, if the DTS operator made sure to tap the screen against the stop blocks properly.
-
I actually rebuilt two x-y micro machines from the ground up- one Hopkins BWM, one M&R. They were nearly identical in form and function as is workhorse I believe, not sure who copied who on those. But anyways, I understand the adjustments intimately from doing those rebuilds and, even finely adjusted to perfection, I dislike the design and the overall experience of using them. I'd be very surprised if anyone took an x-y style micro over a 'direct drive' style in a good 'ol fashioned taste test without the blind brand loyalty or stubbornness we all tend to pick up over time. (not busting anyone's balls here...okay I'm busting Sam's balls a little ;))
I would gamble that about half of the issues out there are from mis-adjustment of the micros, they do get out of adjustment over time and we all know how people tend to screw with parts of machines they don't fully understand. The other half I think are legitimate concerns that there is a better way to do this. Rich, I gotta say, that makes no sense to think that no one has the same experience as the users of this forum, we're just a cross sampling of screen printers from around the world after all and we're all rooting for ya and would like to use more of your equipment but simply don't like this style of adjustment. The other folks in our camp outside of this forum, well, it's likely you don't hear from them because they bought another brand.
I am always open to making our product better as long as the cost stays affordable. If you attend any of the shows we do look me up ( I am at all of them) and we can discuss the pro's and cons of micro.
-
Thank you Rich, that was the response we were looking for!
-
Many do not realize that a properly set up and aligned M&R micro has a "neutral" position where the knob can turn from 10:00 to 2:00 without moving the screen carraige.
-
@ Rich while we are on the subject of upgrades to equipment even though I us the Red company I would love to have a press where you can program in your print jobs and keep them maybe on a flash drive for later use.
Example say I,m printing a six color job and I only have room for one flash unit, so I double stroke the white on the first go round and only won't to single stroke it on the second time around and then print all my colors on top etc most of you know where I,m going with this, is this possible or there press's out there now that can do it? Its all in the control head.
Darryl
-
@ Rich while we are on the subject of upgrades to equipment even though I us the Red company I would love to have a press where you can program in your print jobs and keep them maybe on a flash drive for later use.
Example say I,m printing a six color job and I only have room for one flash unit, so I double stroke the white on the first go round and only won't to single stroke it on the second time around and then print all my colors on top etc most of you know where I,m going with this, is this possible or there press's out there now that can do it? Its all in the control head.
Darryl
With the revolver program you can already store your jobs and come back to them. 99 jobs I think.
-
Rich, thats good to hear. I doubt I'll make it to a trade in the next year but one of your reps is stopping by tomorrow and I'll go over micros when we meet. we are a small, financially insignificant, shop but I think some of my opinions on the subject might be worth a listen. it sounds like including the intensity control on the chili is working out well and, while I'm no industrial engineer, I would try not to suggest anything for the micros that would drive the price up too far.
I get ya Tony, but that is a big part of the design issue- micros should be able to skew adjust and then left to right adjust and these ought to be independent of each other. If x-y style micros have the skew adjustments at dead zero then sure, they can do a linear horizontal adjust but only in that exact position. And if our only visual on true zero is a roughly applied sticker with a target...it's nigh impossible to get it perfectly zeroed out.
-
Rich, thats good to hear. I doubt I'll make it to a trade in the next year but one of your reps is stopping by tomorrow and I'll go over micros when we meet. we are a small, financially insignificant, shop but I think some of my opinions on the subject might be worth a listen. it sounds like including the intensity control on the chili is working out well and, while I'm no industrial engineer, I would try not to suggest anything for the micros that would drive the price up too far.
I get ya Tony, but that is a big part of the design issue- micros should be able to skew adjust and then left to right adjust and these ought to be independent of each other. If x-y style micros have the skew adjustments at dead zero then sure, they can do a linear horizontal adjust but only in that exact position. And if our only visual on true zero is a roughly applied sticker with a target...it's nigh impossible to get it perfectly zeroed out.
Zoo as I thought your last statement confirms to me there are some unknown things about our micro system. PM me a phone number to call to discuss.
-
To clarify the neutral position is designed to keep the micros from shifting in production and binding once perfect registration is achieved. Ideally once the image is registered all micros should be set to the neutral position.
-
are you guys talking about backing off the micros?
-
are you guys talking about backing off the micros?
Yeah that sounds crazy and I have been using them for almost 15 years.
-
fill us in guys, inquiring minds want to know!
-
"Backing off" is a correct enough term I suppose. Once you make an adjustment you back off either left or right and will notice the micro is in free-wheel.
-
never done that, and the micros work just fine. and I don't have a problem with them shifting while running.
-
well if you use tri-loc and good screens you dont need micros....
Sam, one day, you'll have to show me how you can get that to work 100%. We still have to do "some" microing even with triloc and newmans.
-
"Backing off" is a correct enough term I suppose. Once you make an adjustment you back off either left or right and will notice the micro is in free-wheel.
we always did that, had too or you'd be out of reg in short time.
-
Mike...you and Niki come on up...we have ours dialed in like nothing.....
sam
-
"Backing off" is a correct enough term I suppose. Once you make an adjustment you back off either left or right and will notice the micro is in free-wheel.
we always did that, had too or you'd be out of reg in short time.
how can u back them off without moving the screens?
-
"Backing off" is a correct enough term I suppose. Once you make an adjustment you back off either left or right and will notice the micro is in free-wheel.
we always did that, had too or you'd be out of reg in short time.
how can u back them off without moving the screens?
theres a degree of play in them, it takes a lighter touch. sometimes it does move the screen and you get to start over.
I believe the concept is that the top plate does the holding, the threaded rods and knobs and all that do the moving. if the movers aren't backed off into this so called neutral position they might pit their moving skills against the plates holding abilities.
I got myself so trained into doing it over the years that I still find myself starting to back things off that don't need backing off at all.
-
I know you are super busy all the time, I probably need you to come down and help me dial mine in, hahahaah. I can set up an 8 color and be up and printing in about 30 mins. Not sure what your time is on that, but I know it would even bee quicker if we were able to lock and load and no touchy on the dials. Can't wait for that DTS day to come, that will be nice too. Not to drag in a name that will bring the house down, but a certain person had come through here a year and a half ago and talked me into letting him, "re-level" or, make my machine "linear" using shims and stuff and I don't know man. What seemed to be ok at first turned into us finding one of the heads not tighted down. We caught that soon enough to not damage anything, but head 7 was always losing reg only to find out he never re-tighted the bolts. Lesson learned. I should have left it the way it was installed by M&R. It's probably time soon for a good PM from Alex the Orlando Tech.