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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Denis Kolar on May 16, 2011, 09:31:31 AM
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Does someone have experience with WM inks and Chromaline Chroma Blue emulsion.
I got some samples of Chroma Blue photopolymer emulsion and WM white ink.
Emulsion is a bit slower exposing than Xenon, but it holds a lot better on screen. Or, should I be looking at dual cure to have a better control on detail?
Also, does it help that this one has 50% solids content, and what does it mean to me (newbie here)?
Thanks
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is it the PC-701? I have a gallon of that here to try, haven't used it yet... I use CT-R exposes way faster. SBQ @ 45.00 /gallon. . .can't beat it.
WM had a white ink that was awesome but I had to take out another mortgage on the house to buy it. it was another "magic in a bucket" used for everything, cotton, blends and everything in between. .
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http://www.chromaline.com/listing.aspx?CID=8
It is the first one on the top Chroma Blue.
WM white is $72/ gallon. A bit pricey over the Xenon. But what kills me with Xenon is the shipping, there is no-one close to me that sells Xenon, other than that, I love it.
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I am wondering what kind of emulsion you have that is Xenon brand... As for the shipping I mentioned to Sonny that most of my suppliers give free shipping on orders over some $150 (WM Plastics) and others $200 is the limit. The free shipping is a good incentive to buy there products, I know some say they hike the original price but it looks the same to me.
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I am wondering what kind of emulsion you have that is Xenon brand... As for the shipping I mentioned to Sonny that most of my suppliers give free shipping on orders over some $150 (WM Plastics) and others $200 is the limit. The free shipping is a good incentive to buy there products, I know some say they hike the original price but it looks the same to me.
I had Xenon Plastofast that I did not like. They are working on it to fix some issues. If they fix that plastic/gummy feel to it, I could give it a shot again (it was not underexposed). The supplier I'm using is giving 50% of UPS if I order $250 or more, but last time shipping was $14 only (7 after 50%). The sample order from Sonny was $27 for shipping, and it was not any heavier than the other one.
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I have some of the 903WR dual which is not bad for the price and I also purchased some QXL Xenon (purple) and have had problems with re-claiming. It is like gum when you try to reclaim. I talked to sonny and he said I may be over curing so I cut back from 3.5 to 2.0 on my plate maker 1000k. The results was the same a bugger bear to re-claim. I use to use Ulano QLT but I was trying to cut corners. I like the dual cure price, but like the re-claim of the QLT, what is a printers supposed to do.
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I have used chromablue for years and have exposed probably 5K screens using it. It's a good pure photo emulsion that has done everything we ever asked it to do. We changed over to kiwo one coat for about a year then we have recently went back to the chromablue. It's a high solids emulsion, which I prefer an emulsion around 50%. I have more control over what I can achieve with my stencil thicknesses with a higher solids content. I can have a thin stencil if I want as well. The low solids content emulsions are difficult to attain a thick stencil with and not worth my time.
I recently tried out a quart of the WM Plastics white ink and it has so much puff additive in it that it's ridiculous. I pfp'd our company logo on a few shirts, sent it through the dryer and the damn print was raised up about 2-3mm from the shirt. There was so much puff in it I thought my guys were playing a joke on me. And the opacity was not really that good either. You'd think with that much puff in it that the print would have been bright white and opaque, but no. Needless to say I was really disappointed with their white ink, it down right sucked.
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Alan -are you back using QCM? I am throwing in the towel on the Xenon white. Too many problems to deal with, back to Quick white. . I heard One Stroke has a new white that is supposed to be for cotton AND blends, I may look for a sample. .
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I have used chromablue for years and have exposed probably 5K screens using it. It's a good pure photo emulsion that has done everything we ever asked it to do. We changed over to kiwo one coat for about a year then we have recently went back to the chromablue. It's a high solids emulsion, which I prefer an emulsion around 50%. I have more control over what I can achieve with my stencil thicknesses with a higher solids content. I can have a thin stencil if I want as well. The low solids content emulsions are difficult to attain a thick stencil with and not worth my time.
I recently tried out a quart of the WM Plastics white ink and it has so much puff additive in it that it's ridiculous. I pfp'd our company logo on a few shirts, sent it through the dryer and the damn print was raised up about 2-3mm from the shirt. There was so much puff in it I thought my guys were playing a joke on me. And the opacity was not really that good either. You'd think with that much puff in it that the print would have been bright white and opaque, but no. Needless to say I was really disappointed with their white ink, it down right sucked.
Alan.
Thank you so much. I was hoping to hear that about Chromablue.
I like Xenon white, and the guy I talked just sent me WM sample to try and some Franmar chemicals.
First emulsion I tried was Ulano Proclaim dual cure, but that one was taking forever to expose. Xenon Plastifast is fast but it has gummy feel to it and it is hard to reclaim.
Chromablue takes about 20% more time to expose than Xenon but it is still pretty fast.
Homer, I did try One Stroke white. They have sent me a small sample and I did not like it on manual.
Thanks
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I don't always trust manufacturers on their "solids count". I've
had supposedly high solid count emulsion that was thinner than
others with a lower rating.
Just putting that out there.
Also, the difference between a $45 gallon and a $80 gallon is like
what, $0.20 a screen or something? Not one of those areas to
try and save money that is unless you're printing black on white shirts
all day long. (lucky)
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Also, the difference between a $45 gallon and a $80 gallon is like
what, $0.20 a screen or something? Not one of those areas to
try and save money that is unless you're printing black on white shirts
all day long. (lucky)
If you are saying $80 for Chromablue, your wrong. I'm paying $59 for a gallon. Also, a sample that I got feels a lot better than the emulsions I have used before and it covers the screen a lot better.
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my 45.00 gallon of emulsion works better than the 100.00 QTX. . .we go through about 5 gallons every 6 weeks, that coin adds up, and uif it works better for us - it's a win.
-how many companies REALLY make their own emulsion and how many just relabel it? It's like WP film, I know of a handful of companies that slap a new sticker on the box and say we made it. BS you did. Vinyl is the same way, converters, middlemen.
Dk -what was the name of the One Stroke you tried, they have about 15 different whites. . they supposedly just released a new one.
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Alan -are you back using QCM? I am throwing in the towel on the Xenon white. Too many problems to deal with, back to Quick white. . I heard One Stroke has a new white that is supposed to be for cotton AND blends, I may look for a sample. .
What problems have you had with the white?
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I got the One Stroke White sample 2-3 months ago.
She said is the brand new white they have. I tried it and put it on the back of the shelf. I will look tonight if I remember.
About emulsion, I would be lucky to go trough one gallon in next 4-5 months. Not a big shop :(
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Alan -are you back using QCM? I am throwing in the towel on the Xenon white. Too many problems to deal with, back to Quick white. . I heard One Stroke has a new white that is supposed to be for cotton AND blends, I may look for a sample. .
I'm using the qcm 159 mixed with some ultrasol G5 that I came across. This combo is awesome, but I only have a few gallons of the ultrasol and when it's gone, it's gone. The G5 isn't as opaque as the G4, and the problem I have with the qcm 159 is that it's too short bodied, squeegee climbing SOB, and a too thick to use on higher mesh counts and higher speeds, so I'm mixing them 70/30 to get the best of both inks. I might start mixing the 158 and 159 in different ratios to meet my ridiculous expectations.
I've just recently went through a gallon of the One Stroke Hybrid white. I have mixed reviews on this ink as well. It is awesome to work with, not very short bodied and is not a squeegee climber, and flashes really fast, but it's lacking in opacity for a lot of what we do. Strictly for an underbase white with colors other than white going on top, I think it's great. You can print it fast and it does everything average to slightly above average. I have another gallon of a one stroke white coming in tomorrow, I think it's fast flash pro and I'll post my thoughts on it in a week or 2.
I like a lot of the characteristics of the xenon white, but it has a few deal breakers for us. The flash time and the squeegee climbing are too much for me to deal with. On a long run, 100+, you'll likely have almost the whole gallon of ink in the screen by the time the run is over, and the ink will be all over the sq/fb locks and even as high as the chopper bars. It prints like a dream, covers nicely, mats down the fibers fine, and I think is maybe the best white for a manual press when flash time and squeegee climbing isn't as big of a deal.
I've been thinking of getting a new gallon of the quick white in here and seeing how it compares, I haven't had any in well over a year, so I bet it's better than it used to be.
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Hybrid White, that is the sample I got.
Thanks Alan.
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I don't always trust manufacturers on their "solids count". I've
had supposedly high solid count emulsion that was thinner than
others with a lower rating.
Just putting that out there.
Also, the difference between a $45 gallon and a $80 gallon is like
what, $0.20 a screen or something? Not one of those areas to
try and save money that is unless you're printing black on white shirts
all day long. (lucky)
The statement of solids being falsely advertised is actually a matter of not understanding your products. The "solids" content has NOTHING to do with how the product flows...as you stated "runs". Because the solids content is a measure of what percentage of the emulsion is left on your scren after it dries. The flow of an emulsion is called VISCOSITY and is a measure of the thikness or measure of the liquids flow content. You can think of it simply like two quarts of motor oil...one is 10-Weight and the other is 50-Weight. The 50-Weight oil will be exceptionally slow to pour from the container, but that does not imply that the 10-Weight is not completely made of oil, because it "runs" faster from the container.
Viscosity and solids are separate matters and one has nothing to do with the other.
However, I am in complete agreement with you on the cost of inks. What truly matters is the productivity of the ink in your shop and the quality of the final product. An $80 gallon of white ink is worth every dollar if you can CONSISTENTLY use it with excellent coverage with the least amount of print stokes. If you have a printer (manual or automatic) that is only 5% more productive because the ink WORKS properly then it will be more than paid for in increased productivity and hence...PROFITS..!!
However, this is all to often repeated on virtually every product used in this industry and is a debate that seams to have end in sight. What it boils down to is that every shop has specific needs, a targeted rate of production and an owner that all to often places more value on their money than their TIME..which is of course money, but is not in hand so to speak and is all to often UNDER-Valued.
This is also why every ink company offers 5+ varieties of white..in the hope that you will find one suitable to your shops needs, or as in most cases your shops working conditions. By that I mean the quality of the pre-press work ranging from the art to the screen quality (or lack of) down to the setup on the press..of contact, squeegee selection. In most cases I have found that almost every white made will yield satisfactory results when you have a good understanding of HOW to prepare your pre-press for using white ink.
Overall , in all my years of printing I would gladly use a lower quality product that offered CONSISTENCY versus a high quality product that can not perform the same from one batch to the next. However, the other issue of consistency with respect to inks is the temperature in your shop and most notably the ink. A fifteen degree change of shop temperature can actually change the viscosity of the ink enough to require you to alter your printing technique. Something to think about this summer in your 100 degree shop when testing a new sample of white ink compared to what you loved to print with during the winter. ;)
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I have some of the 903WR dual which is not bad for the price and I also purchased some QXL Xenon (purple) and have had problems with re-claiming. It is like gum when you try to reclaim. I talked to sonny and he said I may be over curing so I cut back from 3.5 to 2.0 on my plate maker 1000k. The results was the same a bugger bear to re-claim. I use to use Ulano QLT but I was trying to cut corners. I like the dual cure price, but like the re-claim of the QLT, what is a printers supposed to do.
Overexposure should not ever be a problem with reclaim, in fact a full or overexposure typically makes reclaim much easier.
The problem with the “feel” and reclaiming with a pre-mixed emulsion with SBQ is the nature of the beast SBQ benefit is fast exposure but wash development and reclaim are always a PITA compared to emulsions without SBQ.
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I don't always trust manufacturers on their "solids count". I've
had supposedly high solid count emulsion that was thinner than
others with a lower rating.
That is because viscosity and solids content with polymers is not always related like you would see with say dirt in mud (more dirt thicker) as it is a man-made chemical that does not work in the same way as we would expect as a “lay person” chemicals are tough business.
Also, the difference between a $45 gallon and a $80 gallon is like
what, $0.20 a screen or something? Not one of those areas to
try and save money that is unless you're printing black on white shirts
all day long. (lucky)
Price sensitivity needs to be balanced with other variables to correctly judge the true cost.
You are very correct if a product is a dime less expensive and takes an additional dollar in cost to reclaim then is it less expensive?
Lance and I are in agreement on all of the above.