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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Homer on May 10, 2012, 07:37:34 PM
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anyone know where I can find or how to fabricate that registration device. . . from memory, it looks like a dial indicator with a probe. . .it's for an M&R. . .I've been searching for a few days and I can't find any leads. . thanks fellas. . . J
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It is a dial indicator for all practical reasons.
Just gotta be able to hit the right spot, measure, move the indicator so you
can index the press, and get it back into the exact same position. (within .001" or better)
I think M&R's can use the pallet locator arm if you have one?
Might do better on the M&R forum, they're good about helping.
Oh, and may the force be with you. It's certainly a feasible task once you have everything figured
out, though it definitely is not a fun party time.
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Anatol, M&R, and Progressive all use basically the same thing...
You should prolly give one of them a call tomorrow ;)
I have used an Anatol reg Unit on M&R, Progressive, Tuf, and Anatol machines... 8)
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well here's the deal. My brother actually is the lead designer for a local company that fabricates pneumatic equipment, these presses are like toys to him compared to the things he has to do, he actually helped my tech out when we (by we I mean I held his Pepsi) installed this thing. he got the brains, I got the. . .uhh. . .looks? :P
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The price for a professionally fabricated unit is ridiculously high for what it actually is and also because one could build one themselves if they were just a little mechanically inclined. Using the damn thing properly would be harder than fabricating one. Unfortunately all the guys I know that have one wouldn't lend it to anyone for any amount of money, and half of the ones I've seen we're DIY units. I might have some old pics somewhere that I took of a tech registering our old press so you could get a look at one. If I can't find any decent pics I'm sure one of the M&R guys could shoot you a few pics of one so you could have a machine shop build you one.
An affordable Z-Bar so that many smaller shops could have one sounds like something someone could run with. Wouldn't be a big money maker but it would definitely score some points with customers. Maybe I could work on something like this in my spare time, well, if I had any. I'm sure one reason why some manufacturers wouldn't want just any yahoo with a Z-Bar would be because in the wrong hands that tool could really do some damage. You can really screw a press up if you're not careful and don't know what you're doing.
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we had 2 that sat in a closet for years at my old shop. finally i threw them in the garbage. unless you have a pre mid 90's press, they are useless.
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we had 2 that sat in a closet for years at my old shop. finally i threw them in the garbage. unless you have a pre mid 90's press, they are useless.
'94 gauntlet.
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and if I were your boss, I'd be pissed. Those things are worth putting on digitsmith. A tech will snap those up if they are in good shape, or a large shop that is in need of one for their maintenance dept.
That being said, I have thrown out a ton of stuff over the years only to realize I should have held onto it.
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I,m a pat rat allso when ever I upgrade equipment I store the old stuff just incase, but after a while you just have to sell something or toss it.
Darryl
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and if I were your boss, I'd be pissed. Those things are worth putting on digitsmith. A tech will snap those up if they are in good shape, or a large shop that is in need of one for their maintenance dept.
That being said, I have thrown out a ton of stuff over the years only to realize I should have held onto it.
I agree, those things are valuable to the right people. I used to talk to one of the techs that used to come by our shop and work on our Centurian and he had a Z-Bar and I asked him how much I could get one for since we were constantly having to register the press. I can't remember the exact price but I do remember thinking that we weren't going to be buying one, but I did look at his closely and thought that I could build one for super cheap and it would work as good or better than his. You need a few pieces of hardened aluminum or steel, have the two pieces attached that can swivel with each other that will mount on the press near the regi bearings, a dial indicator and a spring that is a couple inches long and you've got a Z-Bar. There is a little more to it but I think you could have one with $50 of parts if you used a cheap dial indicator. The most expensive part of the tool would be the dial indicator and you can go as high or low on quality as you wanted, but they all work the same way. I like the digital indicators myself, and I'd opt for one of those if I were building this.
I've looked through my old pics and I can't find any of the ones with the Z-Bar. Maybe there is a tech out there that can take a few pics of theirs and post them. I've seen some that were a lot more fancy and complicated than others, but they all do the same job and will be as accurate as the user wants them to be.
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I'm sure one reason why some manufacturers wouldn't want just any yahoo with a Z-Bar would be because in the wrong hands that tool could really do some damage. You can really screw a press up if you're not careful and don't know what you're doing.
That’s for sure...
But for those of us with mechanical minds it is simply a process...
I’ll give an example...
I did an install last week in Alabama (95 Gauntlet 8 Color), the guy had already actually installed his press completely (Leveled, Reg, and everything)... He had actually built his own reg unit and Z bar... Since it was his first time ever doing it he wanted me to come check his work, and train him etc...
Holy crap, he frekin Nailed it... Everything was beautiful!!! The registration was spot on, the shaft was plumb, and all of the pallets and screen holders were perfect!! He bought the press from Rick Fuqua and it was also beautiful!!
We spent most of the time going over different install techniques, how to run the press, what all of the valves and electrical components did...
Now on the flip side of that...
I did an install many years ago on a freedom auto in Mississippi (I think)... Everything went well; the press was fully operational when I left.... I got a call the following day...
The customer stated... "The bearings behind the pallets were not centered when you left, so I centered them" :o
I think yall know where this is going ;D
The next words out of his mouth were... "Why doesn’t my press work now" ???
The moral of the story... Don’t touch the F’ing reg bearings unless you know what you are doing ;)
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that is awesome. Wow, it was working before I touched it and now it's not. gee, wonder what happened.
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Ill snap pictuers of my home made rig later. I also have a set of templates for one a machine shop or someone handy could fab.
It is simply some alum flat bar 4" and 1" both 3/8", shoulder bolt, some bearing, set screw and 1/2" dowl pin. Nothing fancy but works just fine.
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Ill snap pictuers of my home made rig later. I also have a set of templates for one a machine shop or someone handy could fab.
It is simply some alum flat bar 4" and 1" both 3/8", shoulder bolt, some bearing, set screw and 1/2" dowl pin. Nothing fancy but works just fine.
that would be awesome, I just need to know what this thing really looks like -what my main objective is here. I know this is not simple, I'm not trying to say this is going to be an easy -any idiot can do it- type of thing. It just so happens I have the right person on my side to get it done, since my tech jacked it all up when he initially installed it. I would rather learn how to do this, hey if I fail and can't get it done, then we'll have to bite the bullet and send someone out. I just like to see what we can do, test my limits. thanks for the help guys, I'll take pics as I go. . we have pics of our move too so I'll have a ton to post up, some videos too. J
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It is a good skill to have. Then, short of a shaft failure (heh heh) you're pretty much self reliant on
most machines, save for some proprietary parts.
Luckily it doesn't, or shouldn't, need to be performed that often.
Loosening that first bearing is diving in head first.
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Ill snap pictuers of my home made rig later. I also have a set of templates for one a machine shop or someone handy could fab.
It is simply some alum flat bar 4" and 1" both 3/8", shoulder bolt, some bearing, set screw and 1/2" dowl pin. Nothing fancy but works just fine.
all you have to do is go to store.mrprint.com and punch in registration device in the search or you can punch in the part number 8089000-service and the device will pop up. You are on your own from there!!!
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and if I were your boss, I'd be pissed. Those things are worth putting on digitsmith. A tech will snap those up if they are in good shape, or a large shop that is in need of one for their maintenance dept.
That being said, I have thrown out a ton of stuff over the years only to realize I should have held onto it.
At that time my boss was the one who said chunk'em in the trash. So I did what he said.
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we also had some no shirt detectors that he didnt even try to sell, we just threw them in the garbage. Oh, and also a Koolmist. Straight to the dumpster. thats how he rolled!
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Coulda chucked them in your truck!
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jason, PM me the shop you used to work for, I am wondering if I've come across him before.
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jason, PM me the shop you used to work for, I want to go dumpster diving there.
Fixed it for you Brad. ;)
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Thanks gilly!!!
Oh, and if you need an expo unit, the new one is going in as we speak. YAY!!
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The 3140 is supposed to be picked up in California Tuesday. Is the truck blows up and takes it with it, I'll let you know!
Let us know how that new monster is working out for you! You might be able to cut down on labor with that thing... just get a vane female to come in there for the "free" tanning while she exposes your screens. :)
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Ill snap pictuers of my home made rig later. I also have a set of templates for one a machine shop or someone handy could fab.
It is simply some alum flat bar 4" and 1" both 3/8", shoulder bolt, some bearing, set screw and 1/2" dowl pin. Nothing fancy but works just fine.
all you have to do is go to store.mrprint.com and punch in registration device in the search or you can punch in the part number 8089000-service and the device will pop up. You are on your own from there!!!
Yup, Looks almost exactly like mine (Where is the spring at?)..
(https://store.mrprint.com/mr_pls/oos_common_pkg.get_photo?p_photo_id_c=9r5nXMN0Nr20144yri)
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Heck no I am going to be soaking up those rays. I will have to go topless because I hate tan lines.
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Heck no I am going to be soaking up those rays. I will have to go topless because I hate tan lines.
Just another reason for me to knock before I come into your dark room :o
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Not a bad idea...after all, Image Technologies ITX emulsion is liquid sex.
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Not a bad idea...after all, Image Technologies ITX emulsion is liquid sex.
Give ma a lil time, Ill be pimipn some liquid sex very soon ;)
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Sweet. It is seriously the best photopolymer out there.
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sweet, I actually got my hands on one. . . .any tips? TP, Bimm? you guys are probably laughing going -this jackass is going DOWN haha. . .
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Que flames, explosions and utter destruction. ;)
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Not only has this conversation got off topic... it's now in no-MAN's land!
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Eliminate all other possibilities of mis-registration before tackling the bearings.
Before moving anything, measure all of the bearings. Add them up, divide by number of stations,
that's your average to shoot for. Remember when you move one up, the other side moves down.
I don't know how it's performed on M&R's, but on my MHM, it was easiest to index the carousel
by hand and but the index pin (lift cylinder on your press) on a hand switch to engage.
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Eliminate all other possibilities of mis-registration before tackling the bearings.
Before moving anything, measure all of the bearings. Add them up, divide by number of stations,
that's your average to shoot for. Remember when you move one up, the other side moves down.
I don't know how it's performed on M&R's, but on my MHM, it was easiest to index the carousel
by hand and but the index pin (lift cylinder on your press) on a hand switch to engage.
That is exactly right...
Also don’t touch the press while taking readings... Keep in mind when you are measuring in thousandths of an inch you can move the pallet arm a few thousandths with just a finger...
The Z bar and reg unit must be rock solid... A good way to test that is to (Before you start) measure the first bearing... Tap the Z bar sharply with your finger... The reading will prolly change, but should settle to the same place... If not, something is loose. I usually add a couple of clamps to firm things up.
Make sure the reg tool you have is spring assisted... Manually pushing it by hand will give inconsistent results.
Assuming that you are working over the load station, you should turn the press CCW...
Be patient... It may take 2 rounds to get things right ;)
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Also...
Take off all of the forks except the one on the first head.
And when you re-install the forks make sure you level them with the table in the up position...
Using a high strength bungee cord to pull the pallet you are measuring (or changing) to head one will also give better results, but you MUST do it Every time!!
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Its a little crude but I needed one when we moved the press, banged it out real quick. I had the aluminium,dowl and set screw laying around, had to buy the shoulder blot and bearings. I made it offset to fit my press with out it turning into a federal project. Cut the rounded part on the band saw. There is a spring that goes with it to hold the arm against the bearing.
Rich, I looked on the M&R parts store but never found it. Thanks for the part number so I can order the real deal.
Don't move the first bearing, that's your constant. If a small adjustment is needed to a bearing sometimes you can move it without loosing the lock bolt.
Remember to release the bungee cord before you drop the pallets ;)
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how do you know if your reg forks are shot? when the table is up, nothing moves or shakes, we hold reg through jobs no problem. The reason I ask is the tech that set up my machine the first time said we will only get a few months out of our forks, they looked pretty worn I guess. That was 3 years ago. Should I just buy new ones to be safe? Thanks guys
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how do you know if your reg forks are shot? when the table is up, nothing moves or shakes, we hold reg through jobs no problem. The reason I ask is the tech that set up my machine the first time said we will only get a few months out of our forks, they looked pretty worn I guess. That was 3 years ago. Should I just buy new ones to be safe? Thanks guys
If you are holding registration pallet to pallet there is absolutely no reason for you to try and reregister your press. Our presses are well known to hold their reg for many years if not abused. Don't do it just to learn how to do it as this could be a very expensive lesson!
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well I am taking the press down to move it to my new shop -don't you have to register it once you take the heads off and such?
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well I am taking the press down to move it to my new shop -don't you have to register it once you take the heads off and such?
If the reg bearings come off with the pallet arms it has to be registered... If you don’t take them off maybe not...
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how do you know if your reg forks are shot? when the table is up, nothing moves or shakes, we hold reg through jobs no problem. The reason I ask is the tech that set up my machine the first time said we will only get a few months out of our forks, they looked pretty worn I guess. That was 3 years ago. Should I just buy new ones to be safe? Thanks guys
If you still have good left to right registration, I would assume he was wrong...
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well I am taking the press down to move it to my new shop -don't you have to register it once you take the heads off and such?
if you take the heads of you will not have to register the press on the older Gauntlets the registration bearings come off with the arm so yes you will have to register in that case. If this is your first time or even a skilled mechanic it will not be easy. I would go as far as saying donor try it without a tech on call or close by. Just a FYI.
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Homer, word on the street is that you can easily move an entire 90s gauntlet without resetting reg.
for the record, I don't feel the z bar is z-like enough to justify the moniker
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Homer, word on the street is that you can easily move an entire 90s gauntlet without resetting reg.
for the record, I don't feel the z bar is z-like enough to justify the moniker
We designed it at Z bar over a few drinks hence the name! that was my younger days of course!
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Homer, word on the street is that you can easily move an entire 90s gauntlet without resetting reg.
wait -what? how's that possible? here's the main issue. I don't feel my press was installed correctly the first time, so to emulate what I have now in my new location is still not ideal. . .I will succeed. . .I don't have a choice.
Plan A: get the device hooked up, make sure we understand the goal, procedure and how to get there before we loosen a bolt.
Plan B: hope to hell I can get somebody from New Buffalo to bail my tail out. -and I don't know a soul that works there, they will probably laugh at me.
Plan C: fly a tech in from where ever to do it correctly.
I do know there is a new 10/12 sportsman being installed in Buffalo in a few weeks, is there any possibility I can have that tech come to my shop -20 minutes away- when he is all done on that install? split the costs? just thinking out load here. . .
I know this is frowned upon, a bit foolish and costly, but I must attempt to do this.
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I might be off on where you're at here, but I doubt you'll have a problem getting it up and running again, especially with your description of your brother.
When I helped move a similar machine many years back, we didn't get fancy trying to get it nuts on with a jig, but we were up and running on one colors in just over a day.
Measured between the ends of the arms where the channel locks--tech said I had it within a couple hundredths of an inch--with a tape measure. In retrospect, I should have bought the $500 jig. :)
There's no way getting a tech out to double check your work wouldn't be worth the time and $$ though, especially if you can piggyback on travel. Even if you get reg nuts on, who knows what other headaches they might save you...
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yeah, I'm waiting to hear back from a few people in the loop about that tech swinging by my shop. That would make me feel more comfortable doing it. I'm not sure if M&R would frown upon it since it's not my service call, I really don't know. The only problem with my brother is he is so friggen anal, no such thing as close enough, drives me nuts sometimes. just put the friggen screw in the board, why does it have to line up to the others?! It's how all the mechanical engineers are haha, hell he has a spread sheet for his grocery shopping. I just look at pictures and grab colorful packages haha. . .
having this knowledge would just be another advantage for us I guess. .I know we can do it, we are waiting on a few things before we tackle this project. I may call on a few of you guys if you have time. thanks.
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Homer contact me and I will see if we can schedule the tech coming in the area to assist. Rich.hoffman@mrprint.com.
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e-mail sent. Hopefully we can atleast set this machine up and have the tech look it over, sure would make me feel better about it. thanks guys for the help.
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Homer, word on the street is that you can easily move an entire 90s gauntlet without resetting reg.
for the record, I don't feel the z bar is z-like enough to justify the moniker
We designed it at Z bar over a few drinks hence the name! that was my younger days of course!
alright, I'm satisfied, thats enough 'Z' for me.
Sent from my intelligent phone-a-majigger.
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UPDATE. . .I just have to say a huge thank you to the BEST group of people I have worked with @ M&R, specifically Mr. Rich Hoffman, Nereo Denosta- the super tech and Jose Marrero at the plant in Illy. We were in a pretty tough spot with the machine going down like it did and man, these guys knew exactly what to do. Top notch service, we were back up and running in no time at all. That type of service and assistance is priceless. thank you guys very much.
we wanted to attempt this reg by ourselves and I am glad we didn't! Nereo had to reg this thing about 3-4 times to make sure it was dialed in right. We would have gone down in flames!
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That's good to hear man, I was hoping for the best for y'all if doing it on your own.