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screen printing => 4 Color and Simulated Process Printing => Topic started by: cbjamel on April 16, 2012, 10:37:29 PM
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What mesh count is appropriate. 355 or into the 400's. Do I need to look at the extra strength's colors? Looking at more photographic type work. Is it 4.5 times the lpi? I do 55/65 in 305 now. What about Emulsions. I use Kiwo Poly One Coat now, do I need to look at something different? Anything else to look at??
Thanks for the help,
Shane
cbjamel at msn.com
Creations By Ja-Mel
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I can appreciate your attempt. In order to increase your chances at being successful, I would use 5 instead of 4 or 4.5 that would require a mesh that is above 400 mesh. You are really going to need to evaluate how much open area you have on a mesh that high. A real world method to determine if your highest mesh can hold the full tonal range is to take your smallest dot in an 85lpi screen ( between 2-3%) and see if it covers a single mesh opening and two mesh threads.
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I do 55/65 in 305 now.
Why the big jump from 55-65LPI to 85LPI? I am not expert on LPI but each LPI increase results in a lot smaller dot allowing more detail with each LPI added. If I was you I would take it in steps. If you can burn and get good results at 65LPI then I would try 70LPI. You should be able to hold up to 70-maybe even 75LPI with your current set up of 305s. I just wouldn't want to see you spend weeks and weeks working with 400 or higher screens and figuring out a new emulsion if another 5 or 10 LPI would get you the results you wanted.
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I made the mistake of outputting films at 85 LPI for a job that we now print twice a year or so. 355 will do it, with a trade off here and there. We used to have some 420, but really just couldn't get plastisol through it well enough. Good luck.
Steve
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Dan, what would be the best way to determine this.
Thanks,
Shane
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Doing some quick and dirty math, at 85 LPI one "cell" for a dot is about 300 micron square, and isn't 3% @ 85LPI a less-than sixty micron dot?
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Doing some quick and dirty math, at 85 LPI one "cell" for a dot is about 300 micron square, and isn't 3% @ 85LPI a less-than sixty micron dot?
I'm not sure what you mean by 85lpi (cell). Are you referring to mesh opening or the cell used (in your printer) to plot out how many spits of ink onto the films in a given location to fill the needed space to make up a dot?
Most "digital printers" are not 100% accurate when outputting dot %. So, the typical digital films 85lpi 3% dots might be as much as 50% larger that a "real life" 3% dot. Then again, what is "real life". I'm comparing to straight up traditional imagesetter films but those are almost all gone these days so the digital output results are our "real life. It;s like that old saying, "The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind".
The 420-30 Murakami smart mesh has a 30 micron thread and a 30 micron opening and results in a 25% open area (so they say).
Not that you'd measure this all that accurately, but your smallest halftone dot would have to be in the area of 2 mesh threads and one mesh opening to (get as much tonal range as you can get). That means your smallest dot (theoretically) would have to be 90 micron or larger.
SAATI carries a 420 mesh also, but it's thread diameter is 27 microns, with a 25 micron mesh opening with a 25% open area.
Now, once you've done that, you will realize that yes, your holding a very fine dot but then, what next? Whats next is that as Sbrem sort of mentioned, your coverage would be very light (due to such a thin layer of ink) as well as most inks can't pass through the mesh easily. So, it becomes lacking in benefits to do so.
I'm not saying you can't, as I have in the past, but it's also just not production friendly. I would not use that high of a mesh on all colors. I only use it when I might be trying to hold soft subtle detail on one or a few screens out of 8-12 colors. You can get great results of you had a 14-16 color press and was able to use all 420 mesh...but how often does that happen?
Those characters that say they are doing 85 and 120 lpi on tees are not giving you the full line of information. Yes, they are, but they are not holding under 10-15 % dot so they linearized the gradations. In other words, what should be a 1% ends up being in the 10-15% place. They are using the mid tone of the gradations to build the art. You can do that (if you hav a big enough press) because what is actually the lighter part sof the art in a gradation (the range that visually falls under the 15% range) would end up being added on to another color that is lighter. Another spot color. That too, is made up between the 15-85% range.
Side note, When I was doing that high in my testing, I was using Kiwo. Not sure of what brand at the time.
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What mesh count is appropriate. 355 or into the 400's. Do I need to look at the extra strength's colors? Looking at more photographic type work. Is it 4.5 times the lpi? I do 55/65 in 305 now. What about Emulsions. I use Kiwo Poly One Coat now, do I need to look at something different? Anything else to look at??
Thanks for the help,
Shane
cbjamel at msn.com
Creations By Ja-Mel
From personal experience, I can tell you that the linearized (calibrated with densitometer) 3% dot is the max one can hold on a 330S at 65 lpi. I think holding 5% dot makes for a pretty decent print, but to be truly exceptional, you will have to hold smaller than that (linearized true 3% dot. As Dan already mentioned, before calibrating, the 3% dot was actually printing at 7%).
Murakami makes a 350S or something like it, maybe even a 380. My thinking would be to try those first at 75lpi and see what happens. If you send me your films, I'll take the readings and let you know what's coming up.
We use Murakami Aquasolv HV for emulsion and our fine meshes are coated at aprox 20% EOM. It turns out that with most things dialed in, holding a fine dot is not an issue. We tested some new emulsions last month and were getting 3-4% on 230 mesh at 55 lpi, but were hitting the threads and while emulsion was resolving, the mesh was blocking the smaller opening.
pierre
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We at Xenon can get you some screens or mesh in the mesh count ranges mentioned. Give me a call. Sonny. 404-895-1796
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Many insist that when you are this serious about resolution and detail, capillary film yields the most consistent results.
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Many insist that when you are this serious about resolution and detail, capillary film yields the most consistent results.
Agree 100%. What light source do you have?
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I hear people tell me quite often that they are using a 55lpi on a 230 mesh and some say 65lpi on 230 mesh. As long as your dots don't fall under 7%-5% you should be good. If it's a fade off to the shirt, you will booger it up with the saw toothed affect.
I think I'm going to put this in my signature so its always visible. I use 5 to come up with my optimum halftone. This way, it holds the smallest dot possible. If I've not held a 2-3% dot then it's something else that is wrong like, emulsion, coating, exposure time etc.
Feel free to copy/paste:
330 mesh ÷ 5 = 66 lpi halftone (rounded to 65lpi)
330 mesh ÷ 4.5 = 73 lpi halftone (rounded to 70lpi)
330 mesh ÷ 4 = 82 lpi halftone (rounded to 80lpi) - Loss of dots below 5%, more depending on your shops capabilities.
305 mesh ÷ 5 = 61 lpi halftone (rounded to 60lpi)
305 mesh ÷ 4.5 = 67 lpi halftone (rounded to 65lpi)
305 mesh ÷ 4 = 76 lpi halftone (rounded to 75lpi) - Loss of dots below 5%, more depending on your shops capabilities.
230 mesh ÷ 5 = 46 lpi halftone (rounded to 45lpi)
230 mesh ÷ 4.5 = 51 lpi halftone (rounded to 50lpi)
230 mesh ÷ 4 = 57 lpi halftone (rounded to 55lpi) - Loss of dots below 5%, more depending on your shops capabilities.
Note:I will most often use a 230 mesh on my base and a 305 on top colors. I use the same halftone on all these days and will fit the 305 mesh, making all of the art at a max of 60lpi but more often I stay at 55lpi. Then, on your 230 mesh, you will eliminate most of your smaller lower end dots (but you want to usually) so that your top colors overlap your base white.
If I'm "required" to use a 230 mesh on a spot color job with halftones for example, I will not use higher than 45lpi (if the art has a soft fade to the shirt or to another color. It need to be a larger dot so that you can be able to hold it all and get that soft transition without the saw tooth. Bigger dot, but smoother graphics. It's a trade off.
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A little off track but 60-65line process and sim process printing using discharge inks fool the eye into thinking its higher res as the dots "melt" in the steaming process. No dots visible to the naked eye or under a loupe.
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Doing some quick and dirty math, at 85 LPI one "cell" for a dot is about 300 micron square, and isn't 3% @ 85LPI a less-than sixty micron dot?
I'm not sure what you mean by 85lpi (cell). Are you referring to mesh opening or the cell used (in your printer) to plot out how many spits of ink onto the films in a given location to fill the needed space to make up a dot?
The latter... in a way. At 85 lpi, each line is approximately 300 microns-- 85x300 = 25500 microns, or close enough to an inch. Just the way I make it easy on my head to do the math. :) Great points on the output--transfer curves are fun, right? That last bit of info is great--"Control without confusion" is the best book I've ever read on halftone theory and the range calculated in that example (which happens to be at 85LPI) is that 10-90% you speak of. I suppose the trick you're describing would be similar to using a LM LC LY as well as grey to make that ten percent into a perceived one percent?
As to the match--A 90 micron dot relating to an LPI at 3% would be under 60LPI--at 85LPI it's over 7%--that was what I was getting at--don't you have to change the way you estimate your 'smallest dot' to 'hold' these percentages?
And isn't the real trick then what's on screen, as well as what goes down on the shirt? Linearizing your printer is one step, but assuming you're not underexposing, you're dealing with dot loss at the exposure stage, and then gain again on press...
I (and I hope, everyone else as well,) really appreciate the great info the very experienced people here provide. (Very neat info on the discharge, Tony) I don't know about Shane, but I don't get to play with much stuff like this, but I find it's a lot cheaper to fully understand the theory before I spend too much on testing--especially when it comes to expenses like the wisely suggested cap film... ;)
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I made the mistake of outputting films at 85 LPI for a job that we now print twice a year or so. 355 will do it, with a trade off here and there. We used to have some 420, but really just couldn't get plastisol through it well enough. Good luck.
Steve
why not just re output the film?
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Many insist that when you are this serious about resolution and detail, capillary film yields the most consistent results.
Agree 100%. What light source do you have?
M&R MSP3140
Shane
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I made the mistake of outputting films at 85 LPI for a job that we now print twice a year or so. 355 will do it, with a trade off here and there. We used to have some 420, but really just couldn't get plastisol through it well enough. Good luck.
Steve
why not just re output the film?
The customer loved the shirts, and we could repeat it, so we left it alone. When I did a later job for her, we output them correctly (Dan did seps on that
one for me) and they were at 55 lpi. More intense color I feel at the lower lpi. Many years ago, I had a customer bring me his own seps at 100 lpi. I told him "no way", but he insisted, and was willing to pay. They came out sort of OK, all kinds of tonal issues, but if you didn't know the image, you might just buy it. No, I haven't tried it since...
Steve
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Many insist that when you are this serious about resolution and detail, capillary film yields the most consistent results.
Agree 100%. What light source do you have?
M&R MSP3140
Shane
I have always said that trying to hold a consistent dot below 10% was not worth the effort as a 5% dot in a blended sep is really not noticeable to the average person, why fight it. With that said doing a print like you're talking about would to me be fun. I love the challenge. A 3140 is a nice unit but emulsive material choice will be critical. Good luck and let me know if there is anything I can do to help. One more thought....DTS?
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Many insist that when you are this serious about resolution and detail, capillary film yields the most consistent results.
Agree 100%. What light source do you have?
M&R MSP3140
Shane
I have always said that trying to hold a consistent dot below 10% was not worth the effort as a 5% dot in a blended sep is really not noticeable to the average person, why fight it. With that said doing a print like you're talking about would to me be fun. I love the challenge. A 3140 is a nice unit but emulsive material choice will be critical. Good luck and let me know if there is anything I can do to help. One more thought....DTS?
I'll strongly disagree here. Halftones under 10% are needed to create smooth transitions and subtle color blending. The example I often give out is the gold color. If printing 4CP, it consists of pretty much solid yellow and about 3-4% of magenta. If you can not hold that size dot, your gold will actually look yellow. The only way to introduce that color would be to add separate ink.
pierre
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Many insist that when you are this serious about resolution and detail, capillary film yields the most consistent results.
Agree 100%. What light source do you have?
M&R MSP3140
Shane
I have always said that trying to hold a consistent dot below 10% was not worth the effort as a 5% dot in a blended sep is really not noticeable to the average person, why fight it. With that said doing a print like you're talking about would to me be fun. I love the challenge. A 3140 is a nice unit but emulsive material choice will be critical. Good luck and let me know if there is anything I can do to help. One more thought....DTS?
I'll strongly disagree here. Halftones under 10% are needed to create smooth transitions and subtle color blending. The example I often give out is the gold color. If printing 4CP, it consists of pretty much solid yellow and about 3-4% of magenta. If you can not hold that size dot, your gold will actually look yellow. The only way to introduce that color would be to add separate ink.
pierre
Pierre, You misunderstand. I am simply saying that the chances of holding an even consistency of 3-5% dots is beyond most shops. Hence the uneven spotty dots seen on shirts. I am guilty of that as I have tried with the wrong combinations of emulsion and light source and screen prep. A stochastic dot is to me preferable as they are all the same size. Hold one hold all. These are used on index seps quite a bit. Maybe a little word from Dot Tone or Tony Pep here would help.
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I made the mistake of outputting films at 85 LPI for a job that we now print twice a year or so. 355 will do it, with a trade off here and there. We used to have some 420, but really just couldn't get plastisol through it well enough. Good luck.
Steve
why not just re output the film?
The customer loved the shirts, and we could repeat it, so we left it alone. When I did a later job for her, we output them correctly (Dan did seps on that
one for me) and they were at 55 lpi. More intense color I feel at the lower lpi. Many years ago, I had a customer bring me his own seps at 100 lpi. I told him "no way", but he insisted, and was willing to pay. They came out sort of OK, all kinds of tonal issues, but if you didn't know the image, you might just buy it. No, I haven't tried it since...
Steve
Steve, I know that joe clark has wrote several articles about this high end process. I believe he was the guy behind teaching target graphics to do it out of the gate.NOW THEY ARE THE MASTERS. They actually work with 120 lpi and call it high res. I know there are spot plates and many designs can be 10 plus colors. check out some stuff by joe clark or mark coudray and i think you will learn alot.
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Perhaps others have a better inkjet setup than I but there's no way I would attempt anything over 65lpi without imagesetter films. Eliminate one of the major variables right out of the gates.
I used to really believe in the cap film but lately I really prefer the Aquasol HVP because I can blast out all the little dots with even sweeps of the pressure washer on a fan spray, no closer than 6", the length of a dollar bill, away. Much more consistent screen to screen and no motivation-damaging washout and/or breakdown of the cap film. Film is also a no-go for wb or discharge. Truth be told though the cap film, applied properly, almost guarantees you have perfect, even eom and rz across the stencil. You can measure this on your trough coated stencils with the right tools of course but can you know your stencil is perfect across it's entire image area?
Kiwo One Coat is a lot like Aquasol, maybe a little "softer" or more pliable at the finished stencil. It should do fine though many recommend the wider latitude of diazo-sensitized dual cures. Kiwo's Poly Plus Z was impressive when I tested it but that stuff takes a comparative century to expose next to the pure photopolymers. http://www.kiwo.com/Product%20pages/Diazo%20Photopolymer%20emulsions.html#PPZ (http://www.kiwo.com/Product%20pages/Diazo%20Photopolymer%20emulsions.html#PPZ)
I really like Tony's concept of riding the discharge ink's ability to melt up during the steam off in the dryer. That stuff should honestly be where it's at for high end sim process. It's water based and flowy so there's your WOW on press and then it steams together during the cure.
Let's keep in mind the actual goal here is not to hold crazy high lpi and low %age dots, the goal is to make a tight looking print that's on hue and holds all the detail of the original. Nobody but us printers give a damn about the close ups.
Post it up when you get around to it!
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I know this is a zombie thread, but I print at 85 line as a matter of course on white shirts. I did a lot of testing with emulsions and meshes, & found an emulsion that'll get me the 2-3% dots. The Chromaline UDC 2 is doing the trick right now, & our Richmond Solarbeam lamp is a 10,000 watt metal halide. A good lamp is important.
The trick to shadow density for me has been to go with a 355/31 micron mesh. If you just order "355" from your supply house, they'll probably send you 355/34 which has a much smaller open percentage & your prints will look spotty.
Standard angles won't work -- bad moire -- but you can hit 3 angles that'll work if you experiment. It varies from one output house to another. Pick a provider, decide on a set of specs for your film, & keep those consistent once you find something that works, and it'll all be good.
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cvreeland, I like your blog. How do I follow that? I'm on wordpress also. Couldn't locate a link to follow.
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I honestly have no idea :). I had a hard enough time doing the basic Wordpress install - I have yet to figure out syndication /RSS. I have me a Wordpress book - maybe I should read it. I just manually copied & pasted links to all my friend's blogs when I made my blog roll.
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Would you rather hold a smaller dot or a higher LPI? Just a thing I think about from time to time.
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Would you rather hold a smaller dot or a higher LPI? Just a thing I think about from time to time.
I'd rather have good looking dots across the broadest range.
I think that's partially why 55 lpi is so popular. You can easily get consistent dots over a wide range of percentages without having to go all ape poo with your pre and on-press to hold the smaller dots. IMHO, it makes a better overall print to have tight, consistent but larger, dots from 4-96% than to have gorgeous, tiny, perfect little dots from 7-94% and the rest of the range is spotty or not even there or gained out.
Where the h. are these pics of the 85lpi 4cp?
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Whoever posted about the image setter is right. Thats what Andy A uses.
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From what I've seen- forget about anything over 60lpi on our 4800 w. accurip, it's not even close enough to bother with tweaking the film-ink-droplet-blah-blah-blah. Maybe worth going after with a high end rip and media, not sure. Inkjets are a lot more convenient than a pallet sized tank that needs chemicals and maintenance though.
On netseps they advertise $10-15 per color for imageset films. A no brainer if you ask me.
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From what I've seen- forget about anything over 60lpi on our 4800 w. accurip, it's not even close enough to bother with tweaking the film-ink-droplet-blah-blah-blah.
The problem with inkjets is the stochastic spray of the little picoliter dots. If you look at a halftone printed on an Epson 4880, each halftone dot is made up of a hundred or so random inkjet dots, so because of the randomness of the stochastic spray, each actual dod it a different shape from the others.
On imagesetter film, if you look at a field of 10% dots, each one is exactly the same shape. There's just no comparison.
I only go 55 line on my Epsons, & then pretty much only for gradients in spot color jobs. I never use them for continuous tone images unless the customer has been given the "budget printing" disclaimer. We're not a budget printer, so that's rare.
Also, with the Epson, even at 55 line, I can't resolve a dot below 6-7% on my screens, vs 2-3% on imagesetter film. Seems to me there's a couple factors here -- the inkjet dots are not as opaque at the edges, so they literally fade out, and the inkjet film is not as transparent as imagesetter film, so if you decrease screen exposure times, you lose your shadow dots. Both factors contribute to an overall loss of screen exposure latitude.
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This is largely due to the D-Max to D-Min ratio. And yes if you look at Epson dots through a loop they look a bit like popcorn.
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Speaking of Epson print heads.
Anyone know if this is "normal" or if there is a fix if not for this.
I have the Epson WF1100... I'm sure at some point I need to step up, it's not super dark and certainly not super fast!
I'm still using all 4 colors (cmyk+k) so this is only two colors doing this work.
If you look, you will see it looks like basically a nozzle or three is "out of register". (FYI, this is 15x on fixxon's films)
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Speaking of Epson print heads.
Anyone know if this is "normal" or if there is a fix if not for this.
I have the Epson WF1100... I'm sure at some point I need to step up, it's not super dark and certainly not super fast!
I'm still using all 4 colors (cmyk+k) so this is only two colors doing this work.
If you look, you will see it looks like basically a nozzle or three is "out of register". (FYI, this is 15x on fixxon's films)
Why not print out a nozzle check and do a calibration?
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I do nozzle checks all the time... guess I need to loupe them though vs "it's printing ok" ;)
Never thought about calibration. Mike, always keeping me in check on my calibration issues! Thumbs up!