TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: alan802 on January 18, 2012, 11:12:37 AM
-
I had zero experience in using one before yesterday and spent several hours playing around with one and the laser temp gun.
I used the probe in several different ways and by the instructions. The problem I had was I was not able to get the temp
up to anywhere close to 320 when putting the probe into the ink film. No matter how hot I got the dryer and how slow
I had the belt moving, the absolute hottest I got the temp to was 315. The dryer settings to reach that 315 temp is not feasable
for normal production and the ink was curing at much lower temps and higher belt speeds. If you put the probe in the dryer
by itself then the temp would read whatever temp I had the dryer set to, within a couple degrees so I know there is nothing
wrong with the probe itself.
Using the laser temp gun and the stretch test I had the dryer set to properly cure a fairly thick film of ink. For example, I had
the dryer set to 350 and the belt speed at 24 and according to the laser gun, the outer ink film was reaching 360, but the donut
probe would only get up to 285 or so when used according to the instructions. The ink is cured with those settings and I took
the shirts home and washed them last night to make sure. If you put the probe on top of an already cured print, it will read really
close to the laser gun readings. Everything I've ever read was that the donut probe was the ultimate in knowing if your ink
was cured but after using one, I'd be blasphemous in saying this, but the laser temp gun seemed much more accurate in telling
me if the ink was cured. If I would have used the readings I got from the donut probe, then I would have thought that I wasn't reaching
cure temp but I know that I was. When I'd change the settings to not get an ink cure, then the laser temp gun would read 320-340
and the probe would read 250-260.
Does anyone here have any decent experience with the atkins donut probe? What kind of readings were you getting and did
you check the readings with another device or even the good old stretch test?
What the hell is wrong with the layout of the post? Something got screwed up with the updates.
-
What the hell is wrong with the layout of the post? Something got screwed up with the updates.
huh? everything seems the same to me! What are you seeing that changed?
pierre
-
What the hell is wrong with the layout of the post? Something got screwed up with the updates.
huh? everything seems the same to me! What are you seeing that changed?
pierre
Perhaps he's getting that wide screen version for which you gave the F5 fix
-
What the hell is wrong with the layout of the post? Something got screwed up with the updates.
huh? everything seems the same to me! What are you seeing that changed?
pierre
Perhaps he's getting that wide screen version for which you gave the F5 fix
Yeah, it's the wide or infinity screen and when I post it looks like it does above, all broken up.
-
Yeah, it's the wide or infinity screen and when I post it looks like it does above, all broken up.
Except that to us, your posts look fine. We were getting wide posting windows during the upgrades and a brief trip to the F5 key (I think it was) did the trick.
Or the tech guys fixed it.
If it's something else that displays differently on your end than on ours, take a screen shot and post it
-
I got the wide window only once, but I have been getting a lot of codes 500 last 2 days
-
Could care less less about the display :-\
I just got a quote on the Atkins probe...$475. If there is a problem with it I too would like to know. Anyone know the cost of replacing the crosshair wires. The Atkins probes are factory calibrated so obviously that is not the problem Alan is having?
-
I've used one before ours broke. I wouldn't jam it into the film, I would set it on top. And usually the shirt was cured already.
I would go off wash tests and calibrate your results to that.
-
I think it's calibrated right and the probe is good, but I'm just doing something wrong. I've changed the temp on the dryer and put the probe in when doing so and it's changed right along with those dryer changes and it's within 10 degrees of the setting. It's just when I put it on a wet print that I cannot get a decent temperature reading. Or at least a reading that I think is correct to what is actually going on inside the dryer.
-
Is this a NEW probe or a used one??? If used, have the wires been replaced?? If so were they put on properly??
I can't remember if the red goes on top of the yellow or the other way around.
You just got a New M&R dryer??? When I got mine, it came with a probe hooked up to the dryer. It is very cool.
If gives you a reading on the control panel.
You can put the probe in boiling water and see if you get 212 degrees.
-
Wilflex instructions are at the top of the page.
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=672.15 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=672.15)
-
It's a brand new one that came with the dryer. The sprint international has that built into the computer control panel and I can read the temp on the control panel while the probe is inside the chamber. It's sweet.
-
Make sure the wires are down IN the ink on the shirts.
-
I performed the testing exactly like the wilfex instruction which are the same as the M&R. The problem is I'm not getting anywhere near 320 within the probe but the ink outside the donut will be fully cured. I just thought this donut probe thing was ultimate in testing for ink cure, and according to my experiments, it's not even close.
-
well my experience with mine which I have had 2 years is this: I did it your way by the book and had the same issues. But now I lay it on the shirt and watch the temp from there. I know this is not by the book but it worked for me. when I did my initial test i did left side , right side, and middle down the tunnel and used a paper to track temp changes. I have this same test done for different speeds of the belt and with different garment types. This way I know what to set my speed for each garment type with out changing the temp for the dryer itself. Hope this helps a little.
-
well my experience with mine which I have had 2 years is this: I did it your way by the book and had the same issues. But now I lay it on the shirt and watch the temp from there. I know this is not by the book but it worked for me. when I did my initial test i did left side , right side, and middle down the tunnel and used a paper to track temp changes. I have this same test done for different speeds of the belt and with different garment types. This way I know what to set my speed for each garment type with out changing the temp for the dryer itself. Hope this helps a little.
That's how I always figured I'd use one. We got a setup from a kitchen supply and I'll be mapping out our big texair dryer when it's all hooked up.
Shame to hear it's not the supreme testing method it's touted as though for ink cure. I guess the wash test is the only thing that's really 100% in the end.
-
Just a little update, I have been playing with the temp and belt settings and have slowly gone up with the main temp setting on the dryer. My donut probe results have gone way up as my dryer temp went up. I got the probe temp up to 320 and 330 with settings at 390 and 22 belt speed. This dryer also has temp probes attached to the exit area of the dryer and those weren't reading the temps that I thought they should until today, and they were reading 300-320 consistently and that is when the shirt is a few inches out of the chamber. I am very happy now knowing this donut probe thing is working. I'm worried the shirts the first day weren't cured all the way, they passed the stretch test but according to the probe readings the ink wasn't cured. Maybe my stretch testing isn't accurate, or maybe I was just barely getting a cure the other day and now they are curing perfectly.
-
Just a little update, I have been playing with the temp and belt settings and have slowly gone up with the main temp setting on the dryer. My donut probe results have gone way up as my dryer temp went up. I got the probe temp up to 320 and 330 with settings at 390 and 22 belt speed. This dryer also has temp probes attached to the exit area of the dryer and those weren't reading the temps that I thought they should until today, and they were reading 300-320 consistently and that is when the shirt is a few inches out of the chamber. I am very happy now knowing this donut probe thing is working. I'm worried the shirts the first day weren't cured all the way, they passed the stretch test but according to the probe readings the ink wasn't cured. Maybe my stretch testing isn't accurate, or maybe I was just barely getting a cure the other day and now they are curing perfectly.
Stretch test only works with inks that have a stretch additive. Not a good cure test. Never has been.
-
Just a little update, I have been playing with the temp and belt settings and have slowly gone up with the main temp setting on the dryer. My donut probe results have gone way up as my dryer temp went up. I got the probe temp up to 320 and 330 with settings at 390 and 22 belt speed. This dryer also has temp probes attached to the exit area of the dryer and those weren't reading the temps that I thought they should until today, and they were reading 300-320 consistently and that is when the shirt is a few inches out of the chamber. I am very happy now knowing this donut probe thing is working. I'm worried the shirts the first day weren't cured all the way, they passed the stretch test but according to the probe readings the ink wasn't cured. Maybe my stretch testing isn't accurate, or maybe I was just barely getting a cure the other day and now they are curing perfectly.
Alan,
Why have you not called M&R. I am sure their service guys can help you. Its part of the dryer that you bought they will know how it works. What changes did you do that its working today and was not working before? Stuff like that scares the crap out of me. My controler on my Exposure unit was going out and it would work some days and then be really hard to use some other days. I called Workhorse and got the new controler and now it works perfect. (I was dealing with it for 2 years)
-
Sprint sounds like a badass dryer, well though out. I like the temp sensors at exit, do they display or issue a warning if dropping above or below a certain reading?
-
Just a little update, I have been playing with the temp and belt settings and have slowly gone up with the main temp setting on the dryer. My donut probe results have gone way up as my dryer temp went up. I got the probe temp up to 320 and 330 with settings at 390 and 22 belt speed. This dryer also has temp probes attached to the exit area of the dryer and those weren't reading the temps that I thought they should until today, and they were reading 300-320 consistently and that is when the shirt is a few inches out of the chamber. I am very happy now knowing this donut probe thing is working. I'm worried the shirts the first day weren't cured all the way, they passed the stretch test but according to the probe readings the ink wasn't cured. Maybe my stretch testing isn't accurate, or maybe I was just barely getting a cure the other day and now they are curing perfectly.
Alan,
Why have you not called M&R. I am sure their service guys can help you. Its part of the dryer that you bought they will know how it works. What changes did you do that its working today and was not working before? Stuff like that scares the crap out of me. My controler on my Exposure unit was going out and it would work some days and then be really hard to use some other days. I called Workhorse and got the new controler and now it works perfect. (I was dealing with it for 2 years)
I have, all the way to the top actually. They contacted me after seeing this thread. I started at the very low end of the recommended temp settings, actually lower and the probe readings weren't really coinciding with the results that I thought I was seeing, so I posted here. The only thing I did differently today was just added temp, belt speed is relatively the same, minor changes there. I was thrown off by my previous experience and dryer along with the only way I really tested cure before, the old stretch test and wash testing. The garments passed with the very low probe readings which makes me wonder a few things. I think these inks will cure at much lower temps than they say, or there is something else going on like they really aren't cured despite my stretch and wash tests.
Sprint sounds like a badass dryer, well though out. I like the temp sensors at exit, do they display or issue a warning if dropping above or below a certain reading?
You can set the rear temp probes to alarm you if the temp goes above or beyond whatever temp you want, it's really sweet. If you use this dryer up to it's potential, there is no way you'd ever undercure a single garment, ever. And you'd also not spend a dime more per month on gas and electricity than you had to if you used it right.
-
Alan, I'm also interested to see how your gas bill changes with the sprint. Glad you got the probe figured out.
I think it goes without saying that the inks probably fuse at a lower temp than listed, everything needs its wiggle room.
-
Stretch test only tells you one thing and that is under cured. Never use the stretch test to assume something is cured it is only a warning not a guarantee.
-
I don't know where stretch testing really fits into anything. If you know your ink, deposit and substrate well enough then sure, you can glean some information by "palpating the area" but if you're that intimate with you printing that you can stretch a print a little in your hand to determine cure you could also, say, do a sniff test or something right?
I think it's truth that the wash test is the only guarantee there is here. The rest should be control of variables built around a successful wash test.
I see the donut probe as more of a tool to figure out what's going on in various stages of the cure process inside the chamber. Questions like "where in the chamber does this ink and that ink and so and so garment reach what temp?".
Honestly some sort of heat proof humidistat would be nice to send down the dryer with a full load of wb inks as well.
-
LOL @Zoo...
Sniff test...interesting idea, I hear it works pretty well for discharge. ;)
I'm with you though, customer couldn't care less what fancy stuff you're testing your process with when they're stuck with a box of washouts.
-
LOL sniff test
maybe we screen printers should start training our puppy dogs
for this purpose
-
I know I don't have some special talent that nobody else can do, but I feel confident with the stretch test. I've done it thousands of times over the years with wash testing thousands that I've stretched and comparing the results. Like Mike said, you can for sure test for undercure by stretching, but all of the wash tests I've performed on tees that I've stretched over the last few years have given me the exact result I was expecting based on stretching the print. I've only recently gotten a temp gun and now the donut probe to get more precise results that I'm even more confident with than the good old stretch. I've never had a shirt washout that passed the stretch, and literally 95% of those that failed my stretch, have failed the wash as well. I won't suggest anyone who hasn't done as many as I have to use it like I've done though. Don't do as I do, do the right thing and test your dryer the best way you can afford to.
I've always been paranoid about prints washing out, so I am constantly testing shirts and the past year I've been trying to find our old dryers maximum efficiency because it used so much electricity. I want all the garments to reach their cure with the lowest possible gas/electrical usage now with the new dryer that hasn't changed. I don't want to spend more than we have to and it's all about operating leaner and meaner this year.
-
is always good to know when you strecht a print and feel just right in your hands
i`m sure you were worry about ink cracking or washing out with your old dryer
having said that
with your state of the art dryer, is just a matter of days to find the right settings for a good long lasting cure
donut probes and other gadgets,build in the dryer take the guess work out of your mind ;)
-
My old shop had 2 sprint internationals and I ran both at 365 with a belt speed of 20, for years! Never any problems. I never could get that donut probe that came with them to work correctly, but I didnt put to much time in to it either. If I am not mistaken, I am pretty sure it tells you to do a stretch test right in the M&R owners manual.
-
stretch tests are a good STARTING point.
-
I've got the new dragon set at 390 and 23 belt speed. It is dialed in pretty good but I'm about to run a 5 color on darks, 1000 piece job through it and see how fast we can get that belt speed while maintaining proper cure temp. I'm torn between setting the dryer to run fast enough to put the shirts butt to butt folded, or slowing the belt and lowering the temp to put the shirts side by side. On our 48" we had to put the shirts butt to butt and folded where the print was showing but now I have alot more belt to work with, and I can save gas by running the temp significantly lower with belt speed lower. It's a conundrum, good problem to have I guess.
-
I would aim between the 2. that way if you crank your speed up you won't have to adjust the dryer. IMHO you should only adjust the dryer when changing garments...the less time people screw with it the less chance of screwing it up.
-
I run my dryer at the same speed and heat for my manual or my auto. I have a 52 inch belt so on the auto I can run 2 shirts side by side. I have never maxed out. I try to keep shirts in the dryer as long as I can and still meet my production needs. Going fast is no good if the shirts are not getting cured. I personally am scared to death that I will have a client come back with a job that was not cured. So I like to have them in the dryer as long as possible. I'm on 3 years and still not a cure issue with any client.