TSB
screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Dottonedan on October 27, 2011, 12:43:51 PM
-
I had heard some difference of opinions in how shops handle PMS matches. While on this subject, I am also surprised to find out that we have some shops that still do not consider or offer any pantone matches at all. Of those that do, what is your standard procedure?
Do you custom mix inks to match a pantone color till it truley matches the pms color called out, or do you match in general or near, or whatever the ink formula calls out? I'm not looking for the "unique situation". I'm looking for your daily or average approach to a PMS match. Your every day practice. How do you handle PMS matches? exactly, very close, close, (I don't do pantone matches at all.
See POLL above.
-
If not 100% match then what's the point? I think ink matches from an ink supplier require a large quantity order.
-
I answered #2 Very Close but...
I shoot for #1 Exact, but as Harry Calahan told me, "a man's got to know his limitations." A man also has to both tell his clients the same thing, and whenevr possible, put the ultimate responsibility of approval on them.
I just ran a job that requested 295C, and though I followed the Union formula, to my eye it was way off! The client, her deisgner, and thew folks who bought the shirts all loved 'em. so in the end, I'd also say that sometimes " a man's got to know his clients". as well.
It's usually those damn artists who are as bad as the large corporations with their subtle differences, like when I noticed the number of almost identical spot colors on certain artist's jobs increased as number of heads on new presses increased! ;D
-
Depends on the client. Most formulation is pretty accurate so why not? That said as Pierre can attest I keep something like 600 colors on hand and can hit anything I need as accurate as needed by eye in under a minute. It's not cheating if you know color theory.
-
we offer all of the above at different cost.
-close is standard and it usually does not incur a charge if we have anything on the shelf that is close or it takes less than few min to get it close. this is what most customers want as they do not wish to pay for the matching and their customers are not that demanding.
-next one is very close, which in Dan's terms is a shade up or down. This is a $15 charge and the color printed is the color from the formula book. As we all know, those are not spot on, but are pretty close. They will print differently on the dark fabric with an underbase (generally much, much lighter) then they will on a white shirt without the underbase. This is our normal Pantone match.
-super demanding customers are charged $25 and the ink is mixed until the perceptual value matches the specified pantone color. That means we adjust the ink several times unit the perceptual difference is negligible. If going on a navy shirt the color will not be the same as if going on the red. Our eye perceives the colors differently based on the surrounding colors and we compensate for this. Most customers do not wish to pay for this, but the ones that want it are glad that we offer it!
pierre
-
The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card. Good point that a color won't look the same on a white shirt vs a red shirt, ub, etc.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
The biggest sticklers for exact matching are for brand colors, like Target red or Best Buy blue.
I bet if the PMS match charge was high enough the customer would often be happy with a stock color.
-
The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card. Good point that a color won't look the same on a white shirt vs a red shirt, ub, etc.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
The biggest sticklers for exact matching are for brand colors, like Target red or Best Buy blue.
I bet if the PMS match charge was high enough the customer would often be happy with a stock color.
You said it. The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card
To me, (and I will throw in the variable that I am unique), but for me, I am under the impressions that if I call out using pms 3285 green on an Athletic (solid spot color job), then I expect the color to be in or as best can be matched, to the 3285. That's regardless of it's on a black tee, red tee or purple tee. 3295 is 3295. Piss on the idea that the shirt color makes a difference. The ink is not to view darker like pms 3305 because you don't have a heavy enough underbase or it's not to view as a bright Pantone green because thats close enough.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
Being "Different" is subject to opinion but needs to also be in the area.
A 3295 with a 156 undersabe is going to look pretty close (if not 100%) to pms 3295. If you print that 3295 green on a 300 mesh with a 300 mesh underbase and the underbase has 60% halftone under the 3295 green...and you are using thin translucent inks, then you are not going to match pms 3295. To just say, "Well, I used pms 3295" is not accurate or appropriate. The shop has not done the job of matching pms 3295. This is not pertaining to sim process. This is standard spot color printing. If a customer calls out a PMS color, the pms 3295 should be 3295 no matter the shirt color. This is all with the understanding that inks can shift, colors shift, to be a shade up or down (even on pms matches are withn reason. Nobody should scream over not having it match 100% but at best, is can be 98-99%. They are being unrealistic if they have 12 colors in a job and demand to have an exact match of all 12.
-
The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card. Good point that a color won't look the same on a white shirt vs a red shirt, ub, etc.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
The biggest sticklers for exact matching are for brand colors, like Target red or Best Buy blue.
I bet if the PMS match charge was high enough the customer would often be happy with a stock color.
You said it. The kicker is that many customers expect it to look like the color on the crisp white card
To me, (and I will throw in the variable that I am unique), but for me, I am under the impressions that if I call out using pms 3285 green on an Athletic (solid spot color job), then I expect the color to be in or as best can be matched, to the 3285. That's regardless of it's on a black tee, red tee or purple tee. 3295 is 3295. Piss on the idea that the shirt color makes a difference. The ink is not to view darker like pms 3305 because you don't have a heavy enough underbase or it's not to view as a bright Pantone green because thats close enough.
I can match it via the card number but yea, it can look different when printed.
Being "Different" is subject to opinion but needs to also be in the area.
A 3295 with a 156 undersabe is going to look pretty close (if not 100%) to pms 3295. If you print that 3295 green on a 300 mesh with a 300 mesh underbase and the underbase has 60% halftone under the 3295 green...and you are using thin translucent inks, then you are not going to match pms 3295. To just say, "Well, I used pms 3295" is not accurate or appropriate. The shop has not done the job of matching pms 3295. This is not pertaining to sim process. This is standard spot color printing. If a customer calls out a PMS color, the pms 3295 should be 3295 no matter the shirt color. This is all with the understanding that inks can shift, colors shift, to be a shade up or down (even on pms matches are withn reason. Nobody should scream over not having it match 100% but at best, is can be 98-99%. They are being unrealistic if they have 12 colors in a job and demand to have an exact match of all 12.
well, there are some other possibilities too. For example, the logo color for my customer is 123. The use it for all they do. Then they print 123 with very fine lines on a black poster and while it was printed with 123, the overall perception of the color shifts as the black is overpowering. Now I go ahead and print the shirt with a 123 pms match ink, the area is bigger and the perceived color is not the same. Now their color is varying from one product to another. Posters are one shade, mugs are another and the shirts are something else. That is why the color is matched to the perceived value rather than the actual pantone number . . .
pierre
-
Depends on the client. Most formulation is pretty accurate so why not? That said as Pierre can attest I keep something like 600 colors on hand and can hit anything I need as accurate as needed by eye in under a minute. It's not cheating if you know color theory.
What procedure do you use (on average or as a standard) to provide a color to a customer. When a customer provides you with a list of PMS colors to use in the art, and you then go to prepare the inks, where do you end up? What is your next step? To what degree of color matching do you use? Do you make these calls on your own or do you make a call to the customer to see just how true they want these pantone colors to be? Do you ask, "Do you really want your pantone 3295 to be 3295 or is close good enough?
With that said, then, Do you have varying pantone matching charges?
-
well, there are some other possibilities too. For example, the logo color for my customer is 123. The use it for all they do. Then they print 123 with very fine lines on a black poster and while it was printed with 123, the overall perception of the color shifts as the black is overpowering. Now I go ahead and print the shirt with a 123 pms match ink, the area is bigger and the perceived color is not the same. Now their color is varying from one product to another. Posters are one shade, mugs are another and the shirts are something else. That is why the color is matched to the perceived value rather than the actual pantone number . . .
pierre
No. You can try to align the planets and arch your back and print upside down to get a better view of the color...in the end, when a printer has 6 heads and 5 are taken up and you need pms 123 in 80% of the art but this 123 (thin line) is going to be over powered by this black surrounding shirt, just print it and deliver. You can't add a 7th color to a 6 color press so let it fly. The customer will have to understand that we only have so many things we can do on a tee shirt.
-
We sell shirts with Art or logos printed on them so yes how the shirt color effects the colors of the printed art does matter to us. We sell the final piece to the customer unlike most artists they only sell or provide the art and really do not care what the sum of everything is.
For us we still use stock inks, that will change soon enough. If a PMS is called for then we do the same as Pierre and offer a close by eye mix in house for a charge or offer a custom mixed PMS match from union for a charge. They always pick one of the two.
And BTW a PMS color such as a deep red on a complete black back ground is not good in my eye and will always go for a slightly brighter red, this applies for any deeper colors on black.
-
We do our best to match exactly, but I've been doing this long enough to know that sometimes a color is impossible for us to match, due to whatever variable you want to throw in there. We can match any color to the pantone book when the ink is still in the bucket, some colors are harder than others, but we can get dead on. Then based on many different variables, that color may not print how it looks in the bucket, then it needs to be altered which ever way and then you have to know when to say when on a color. Like Frog said, there are limitations, and if someone is bold enough to say they match exactly every single time, then I'd have my doubts, and I'd then consider subjectivity into the equation and say by my standards, it's impossible to do every single time, but maybe not by another standard, or if someone who is somewhat color blind.
-
We go with #2, because it's not paper, which the system is designed for. Like the discussion about U or C, it's the same damn ink out of the can in the offset shop, just on different paper. But, we're not printing with an offset press on to paper, so it won't be exact. We can't allow a customer to hold us to a spec that can't actually be met. Yes, you can come ridiculously close, but not close enough to keep some jerk from arguing with you and looking for a discount. So right up front, we lower their expectations. After all, when they get distributed, nobody cares or notices. We show samples of course, so they have to sign off on them, and if they aren't happy, they are more than welcome to come out to see it with their own eyes, and as Pierre mentions, at a cost.
Steve
-
I tell customers right off the bat that plastisol and waterbase inks are nothing but a simulation of the actual pantone color and it may or may not look exactly like the chip when it comes out the dryer. If you want it to look exactly as the chip, then it's $25 per color. If you're OK with my better judgement and getting it as close as possible, then it's only $10 per color.
-
author=Inkman996 link=topic=1857.msg19495#msg19495 date=1319740364]
We sell shirts with Art or logos printed on them so yes how the shirt color effects the colors of the printed art does matter to us.
Sure it does. Sometimes you can't change what is. If I ask for titty pink, any pink will do. That is very vague. If I ask for pms 196, it needs to be 196 (or very close). This is no matter if It's a 12"x16" flat solid square on a royal blue shirt or if it's a .5" x .5" square on a royal shirt. 196 is 196.
We sell the final piece to the customer unlike most artists they only sell or provide the art and really do not care what the sum of everything is.
?? Thats a broad blanket statement that sounds more like it's covering outside of the tee shirt artist I'd think. We consider this stuff MORE than the average printers or shop owners when we create art for tees. It's what we do.
And BTW a PMS color such as a deep red on a complete black back ground is not good in my eye and will always go for a slightly brighter red, this applies for any deeper colors on black.
1st, whats good to your eye is not requested. It's who's wants it and is paying for it. So, if the custy says, put pms 4975 dark brown in a 1" square on a black tee, then it should look like that PMS color. However you achieve that is up to you. If you can achieve that by using a brighter red, than great. If the brighter red look (too bright) and not like pms 4975, then you may be obligated to re-do them if you didn't get approval before hand. As long as it looks like that color needed, you've done your job.
-
I guess there is a reason why we are running a print business and you are an artist Dan.
Sorry to tell you but half of what you said would never fly with us or our customers, 90% of the time the customer bows to our experience and expertise on how the final product will come out.
If they are simply Joe Blow and want an ugly dull color on black we will advise them to change it because it is also our walking bill board on there back, sure we can always give them just what they want alas that is not how we roll.
I know quite a few artists not all t shirt guys that have zero concept of the back ground color and the effect it has on the art work so my statement about that is not off base at all trust me.
-
I guess there is a reason why we are running a print business and you are an artist Dan.
Sorry to tell you but half of what you said would never fly with us or our customers, 90% of the time the customer bows to our experience and expertise on how the final product will come out.
If they are simply Joe Blow and want an ugly dull color on black we will advise them to change it because it is also our walking bill board on there back, sure we can always give them just what they want alas that is not how we roll.
I know quite a few artists not all t shirt guys that have zero concept of the back ground color and the effect it has on the art work so my statement about that is not off base at all trust me.
I guess there is a reason why we are running a print business and you are an artist Dan.
No. Not much of a reason.
Sorry to tell you but half of what you said would never fly with us or our customers, 90% of the time the customer bows to our experience and expertise on how the final product will come out.
Oh. You must be VERY good then. In fact, better than all of the rest of the printers out their. I don't know anyone who has customers bowing to them. LOL. Do they bow on price as well?
Maybe so. I'm sure you are a good shop. You wouldn't be where you are today if you weren't. Perhaps tho, you might be even further with some adjustments in some areas. Like many have said here, it depends on your customer. You, may have 90% of your customers that are "Joe blow" as you say. I don't knock that at all. We need Joe Blow's. They make up a tone of business.
Joe blow will listen to your expertise, a Coke will not. A school that wants it's GREEN on a black tee does not need a brighter green because you don't like that color. They want their color, not yours. An ad agency that has put together a campaign that has some art with a very dark brown on a black shirt will not want you changing it to a brighter red just because you are the expert at printing tees. They want what they want for a reason. You're skills and expertise in deciding that my color I used is not pretty ....does not matter to my add campaign. When you "tell me" that my color is crap and you don't want to print it because the tees are your walking billboard, you can tell that you your employer as I walk out the door to another printer. Now, you may never have that with the type of customers you have. I don't know. From the sounds of it, they are all Joe Blow that bow to you and thats ok. If I were rude, I might now say, "I guess there is a reason why you have customers that do not have expectations outside of yours", but I'm not like that. Thats just a for instance.
As a side note, I am just a dumb artist that sells tees as well. I job the printing out to printers who are capable of matching PMS colors and adhere to my request since I call them out for a reason.
It's also like that with separations. Any separator or sep service will call out PMS colors to match for sim process. If a shop does not use the colors we call out or does not match colors at all and uses a random blue or a random red when I call out 186, then the results are less than I designed the seps to be.
-
we offer all of the above at different cost.
-close is standard and it usually does not incur a charge if we have anything on the shelf that is close or it takes less than few min to get it close. this is what most customers want as they do not wish to pay for the matching and their customers are not that demanding.
-next one is very close, which in Dan's terms is a shade up or down. This is a $15 charge and the color printed is the color from the formula book. As we all know, those are not spot on, but are pretty close. They will print differently on the dark fabric with an underbase (generally much, much lighter) then they will on a white shirt without the underbase. This is our normal Pantone match.
-super demanding customers are charged $25 and the ink is mixed until the perceptual value matches the specified pantone color. That means we adjust the ink several times unit the perceptual difference is negligible. If going on a navy shirt the color will not be the same as if going on the red. Our eye perceives the colors differently based on the surrounding colors and we compensate for this. Most customers do not wish to pay for this, but the ones that want it are glad that we offer it!
pierre
I do the same as Pierre but charge $25 per mix. I Don't have picky color clients but when I do they pay more. One thing to watch out for is color of the ink after printed. I just mixed a pink up this week and it looked very close after mixing and was fine for this customer. Then after I printed the color on a white tank top the color was dead on after coming out of the dryer (cooled down). I am not sure the formula is for after printed or not. This is the first time I have seen this happen.
-
Yes - we PMS match with good results. I have most colors on the shelf already. I still charge for it - minimal fee. Sure, an occasional complaint. We get our fan, isolate the ink from the shirt field (process below) and it becoms convincing.
Another good thing you will need is good lighting when producing PMS matching. We changed all the florescent lighting and fixtures in our shop (to the tune of about $5000.00) with dramatic results. It took down the power bill a little as well. Energy effecient, I'm told. The light here is now perfect.
We use a hole punch on our PMS fan right in the center of the color and place the printed sample under the hole of the PMS we are trying to match for better accuracy. It works kinda like when you adjust your monitor for color accuracy. You know - The color in the circle has to match the square around it.
I have another trick - close one eye. it takes out the stereoscopic (sic) effect of vision and makes the garment ink and PMS fan look "flat" for even better accuracy.
-
We don't charge for PMS colors generally (plastisol) but we have 500+ colors in stock, so most of the time we already have the color. As to exact matches we say "simulation" of Pantone and for those picky customers we arrange a press check. That said plans are in the works to offer a extensive pallet of PMS + custom mixes and stockers for next year, mixes outside of that will be charged at a to be determined rate.
-
[quote
It's also like that with separations. Any separator or sep service will call out PMS colors to match for sim process. If a shop does not use the colors we call out or does not match colors at all and uses a random blue or a random red when I call out 186, then the results are less than I designed the seps to be.
[/quote]
This is true, well... somewhat, maybe. I printed a job on navy shirts today that was pre sepped. The art was sent to me with all channels at 100%. Some colors had no underbase or a % of underbase with a navy background. I asked the customer (who did not do the art) if he wanted the print to look like the proof or if he wanted me to use the colors specified? Big difference.
-
We don't charge for PMS colors generally (plastisol) but we have 500+ colors in stock, so most of the time we already have the color. As to exact matches we say "simulation" of Pantone and for those picky customers we arrange a press check. That said plans are in the works to offer a extensive pallet of PMS + custom mixes and stockers for next year, mixes outside of that will be charged at a to be determined rate.
Are the containers noted with a PMS number or do you match the ink to the card visually?
-
We use a hole punch on our PMS fan right in the center of the color and place the printed sample under the hole of the PMS we are trying to match for better accuracy. It works kinda like when you adjust your monitor for color accuracy. You know - The color in the circle has to match the square around it.
That is a great idea!! Gotta get me a hole punch ;D
-
So from a supplier’s standpoint... What do you guys expect ???
We currently draw down PMS matches through a 155 mesh static frame with 1/8" off contact on to a white T-Shirt material, 2 strokes manually, 70/90/70 duro squeegee under daylight fluorescent bulbs, and we do cure (or at least flash cure the print).
When we have a wet sample this is a non issue, but when matching a pantone book, what would you guys consider a good standard??
Keep in mind transparent colors can shift a few shades depending on mesh count (you already knew that tho ;)).
Should we ask for all of the printing parameters for every PMS order (Squeegee, Mesh, Thread Diameter, etc)? I’ve done this plenty of times for UV sign printing customers. Thread diameter matters....
Or do you guys expect to have to tweak the color depending on the job?
Any input would be appreciated!!
-
Hand grenades, atom bombs & PMS match... close is usually good enough.
-
This whole conversation got derailed right off the start, but,
PMS matches...yeah, we do that. Pretty damn good.
Problem is, they, the customer, pick new fabric colors late in the game, which f*cks everything up royaly.
For example, turquoise looks like ass on a dark green.
Ya know?
I do the art thing. I know the scoop. I also print.
They ( the customer ) can be so particular about color, since they feel they've designed it, if they give it a number.
Which never works later.
It's like excited newly-weds telling an architect 'exactly' how to build a house, lol.
Build with primaries, always. Primaries are shades of contrast, except, with color.
Give it a number if you need too, at a later date.
But yeah, they'll never get it.
No one here charges near enough. We need a 'PITA' fee.
And that's about that.
;)
-
Even in paper printing there is no dead on. Offset printer are off more on paper then most of us do on shirts. I have lost thousands in paper printing because a pantone was off by 5%. Coke pays thousand to have their Coke Red on everything. They do get close but with all the different variables it is not possible to be dead on always. This is how I look at it. If you hold two (Different) items in Pantone 194 a foot apart they should look the same. If you lay them so they butt up they will look different almost 100 percent of the time.
In screen printing like many other businesses if your client is looking for something to be wrong they will find something. Even if it is not there. (hint: fire that client)
-
Color snobs like Nike insist on not calling out PMS colors. Instead each season you would recieve a kit within which would be a bag of assorted shoelace tips, sneaker rubber, etc. Those were your color standards. You would then proceed to match each sample using two formulas. One on white fabric and one underbased on dark fabric. Typically these used different base and pigment ratios. And no you didn't charge for this, as difficult as it was.
Other snobs like Hillfiger claim to have standards but they vary between the different apparel divisions. It would not be uncommon to have six or more Tommy reds, blues, and so on. Very difficult to control and keep from cross contamination.
Sorry for the slightly off topic.
-
Even in paper printing there is no dead on. Offset printer are off more on paper then most of us do on shirts. I have lost thousands in paper printing because a pantone was off by 5%. Coke pays thousand to have their Coke Red on everything. They do get close but with all the different variables it is not possible to be dead on always. This is how I look at it. If you hold two (Different) items in Pantone 194 a foot apart they should look the same. If you lay them so they butt up they will look different almost 100 percent of the time.
In screen printing like many other businesses if your client is looking for something to be wrong they will find something. Even if it is not there. (hint: fire that client)
I printed for Coke years ago, and they were a pain. They would give us CMYK percentages for the red, never a PMS color. We explained very hard that it doesn't work that way, and we custom mixed by eye a red for them that they signed off on. The cans are a different color than the boxes they come in for crying out loud. We won't touch them now, they just suck. Let them beat someone else up.
Steve
-
I turned Coke down a couple years back. Didn't need the headaches.
-
take the " pms color" into a room with different lighting than you mixed the ink = color shift. Take the garment outside in the sun =color shift. Send it down the dryer w/ too much heat =color shift. . .you guys know how many variables there are, hell, you use an older pantone book and you may be off by 5-10%, keep your pantone books in the dark btw. . .they will fade. We deal with pms matching in the sign world now and again. you use a matte laminate vs gloss, again -you get a color change. .I think it has more to do with control from the customer than actually being dead on, because in reality -who the hell cares, it looks good or it doesn't, little Tommy is not going to say, no thanks, I don't want that t-shirt, they used the wrong shade of red. For you fellas that can mix it spot on and do it well - you are a better man than I. . .I would kick them square in the balls. . .
just to clarify -I'm not saying "who cares" to you guys, i'm saying it to the large corporations requesting and rejecting orders because it's 5% off. . .
-
take the " pms color" into a room with different lighting than you mixed the ink = color shift. Take the garment outside in the sun =color shift. Send it down the dryer w/ too much heat =color shift. . .you guys know how many variables there are, hell, you use an older pantone book and you may be off by 5-10%, keep your pantone books in the dark btw. . .they will fade. We deal with pms matching in the sign world now and again. you use a matte laminate vs gloss, again -you get a color change. .I think it has more to do with control from the customer than actually being dead on, because in reality -who the hell cares, it looks good or it doesn't, little Tommy is not going to say, no thanks, I don't want that t-shirt, they used the wrong shade of red. For you fellas that can mix it spot on and do it well - you are a better man than I. . .I would kick them square in the balls. . .
just to clarify -I'm not saying "who cares" to you guys, i'm saying it to the large corporations requesting and rejecting orders because it's 5% off. . .
For those who care the above phenomonem(s) is/are reffered to as metamerism.
-
What is funny is a local school uses 2 shades of green. But they a really to close and it's hard to differentiate, so most printers darken the one green to make it easier to see. Some don't and you can tell it. Their sign outside is nearly impossible to read.
This is a case where I change it to make it look better...and they love it and never notice.
-
. .I think it has more to do with control from the customer than actually being dead on, because in reality -who the hell cares, it looks good or it doesn't, little Tommy is not going to say, no thanks, I don't want that t-shirt, they used the wrong shade of red.
We all have that same feeling as well. They they "really" know what they are asking for?... Is it really all that important? Many times, I'd guess not.
An example of when it matters is like when you are the only printer in town. Everyone thinks your great. Then a new printer starts up and things change. That is because now, you are being compared to another. Where is the connections? here it is.
With prints, let's say you are running a job that has been run by another company in the past. Maybe they still are. It might just be that the previous shop still runs the majority of the shirts and you are being given the over flow. So two maybe three shops are running the same job. You will need to be printing the PMS Colors as close as possible. For orders and customer like this, your additional 20-40.00 PMS matching charge is unimportant. Match the colors and add it to the bill.
In retail, this happens all the time. They get the same print from multiple printers. Preferably from one, but it never stays that way. So this is where it's really and truly, honest to goodness for real this time, needs to match. It's what they called a "bad show" at Disney. People (customers) would flip through a shirt rack and notice that even tho the design was the same, we might have 2-3 different looks to the color. Some times, it could be WAY off base and stands out like a sore thumb. More often, those color issues are with ink and using a different printer. Some times, it's the garment color that is off. Ever set 3 black shirts together that are all three form different lots? You can have some extreme differences. Some blue blacks, some brown blacks and some gray blacks. In most cases where we have varying ink colors that do not match the original approved sample, they all get returned and credited.
Logo's are the same. Little Tommy won't notice, but little Tommy isn't buying your printing service, the company is. So, Company X who is trying to maintain consistency and build a "brand" identity, wants you to feel it important to match his color. If not, then it's his/her job to move on and find someone who will.
Now, I'm right there with ya when it comes down to them getting too picky. Most buyers in these cases deal with art that gets sent out to many many different types of printers. Some off set, some screen print, some hot stamping, etc. All this art is being out on many types of substrates. Most times, all they know is what they hear from the owners or brand management. "Make sure the PMS colors are accurate". So, thats what they tell you. Only, they don't know that screen printing does not provide you the ability to be 100% on target when mixing inks. You can be close, but when someone says It's 100%, that is really an opinion. One can look at it and say yes. Another can say "well, It's very very close, but not dead on, try one more time.
Like many have said, run a blue thru the dryer too long and it can be darker. Need to go through a higher mesh to hold better detail? That color will be slightly lighter or more translucent.
-
We mix according to the formula and then cross reference that with a wet sample and dry sample we have on file.
-
I got into a bit a rant on this earlier, but it's annoying, so, I rant, lol.
I see what you're saying Dan, I do several jobs that are also printed
by many other printers as well.
In these cases, I would hope the original art department
considers the final canvas when designing the art and picking final colors.
( at least look at it grayscale once?)
Hasn't happened for me that often, but one can hope.
I'd like to think the PMS book is a guideline, rather than biblical.
And yes, colors look different in every single differentiation of lighting, let alone on a substrate.
Fun, fun.
;)
-
I turned Coke down a couple years back. Didn't need the headaches.
I wish Coke would call me to print their shirts. It would be fun to turn them down. I'm going to hold out for Pepsi I don't like printing red.
-
We printed for Coke in the past. It wasn't horrible, but the new folks there were outrageous. They wanted a price for same day turn, 1 day turn and 1 week turn, on about 24 quantities and up to 6 spot colors. And it didn't matter what color the shirt was. They came in with a 3 page spreadsheet that they wanted me to fill out. I didn't have the time and I am glad I turned it down. Same day service.
I wish I had a copy, I think but I am not sure that the prices had to be the same for 1-6 colors. I think. Ugh, I wish my brain worked better.
-
First we have to understand how the pms system works and then we will realize there is no exact pms match. The two original guides, coated and uncoated, were developed with exact formulas of inks printed on two different types of substrates, Later came a third guide which was on Matte stock. The newer guides are in a differrent type of material so if your guide, and that's what it is, is not from the last year or two it will not match the older guides which are printed on thicker material. So take 186C and 186U and compare. These are the same inks printed on different stock. Now print on a different stock and 186 will be something different. Which is correct? They all are. So now go into illustrator, the one that all these graphic designers use, and make a swatch of 186C and 186U. No difference. Thats because 186 on the monitor in illustrator makes a poor representation of color as it will appear on paper. Now do the same in Corel and you will at least get a better example of the actual color on paper. Now lets try and reproduce this on a shirt. On a white shirt the color will look more like uncoated and on dark shirts it will look much more like coated but not exactly like a book printed on paper just like the coated and uncoated colors look different. Same inks, different substrate, different appearance.
Now we want two different printers even using the same art, same films, but different screens, same mesh, coated with different emulsions, possible same inks, different environment, different flash temps, but same results... not likely. Good enough, probably but different.
-
We use a hole punch on our PMS fan right in the center of the color and place the printed sample under the hole of the PMS we are trying to match for better accuracy. It works kinda like when you adjust your monitor for color accuracy. You know - The color in the circle has to match the square around it.
Brilliant idea. I love these simple gems of ideas.
Many good points in the thread above about perception, fabric, lighting, wet/dry, etc. We try to "read the room" a bit, some customers don't care and just want something close and some customers need and expect a perfect match.
I've found that many times ink manufacturers recipes are not correct for an ink match. We're lucky to have a production manager who is super good at matching by eye (as tonypep stated he can do earlier) and most of the time, he can mix by eye quicker and more accurately than any recipe. Me, I could not do that, but he can... This skill becomes a little more important when you get into trying to mix and match colors on different garments and different colors with discharge inks. Unless you're printing water base on white, every single discharge color we mix seems to be a custom mix.
I found that communicating about colors with customers is maybe even more important than having the ability to make the "perfect" pms match. This article from Printwear a while back was pretty darn good:
http://printwearmag.com/article/business-management/communicating-about-color (http://printwearmag.com/article/business-management/communicating-about-color)