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General => General Discussion and ??? => Topic started by: farmboygraphics on June 29, 2016, 01:56:03 PM
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So one of the my guys asked "instead of reclaiming (statics) why not just use new screens". His point is that if we charge a customer for a screen (plus markup) why do we have to reclaim? Either store it or trash it. I've never even considered something like that and never would. But it's interesting...thoughts.
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I think something like the Trax? frame or Shurloc EZ frame would be ideal for this if you went that route. Just think no reclaiming, no chemicals no time, just pop out the mesh toss it in the trash pop in a new panel and coat it. Makes some sense.
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I have dreamed of using wood frames one time. Print them and find someone that can re purpose them. Eliminate reclaim completely
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some shops dont, they use wooden statics. I guess it could work, clean the frames, strip the mesh, and remesh. Seems like a waste to me, not to mention you pay more out of pocket.
I would personally rather have an auto reclaim system that de-inks and makes a screen ready to coat on the other end...
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It is a waste if you ask me, yes customer might pay for the the screen and how much are you going to charge then to make a few dollars on it, when you can make a heck of a lot more by using it over and over. Reclaiming is the dirt work of any screen shop but it has it's place, getting ready right now to do some dirt work and put then right back in service ;)
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I think something like the Trax? frame or Shurloc EZ frame would be ideal for this if you went that route. Just think no reclaiming, no chemicals no time, just pop out the mesh toss it in the trash pop in a new panel and coat it. Makes some sense.
tried it. math didn't make sense. now we have a semi-automated reclaim. no moving parts involved but there is zero scrubbing or spraying of chems.
OH - if anyone is interested in 100+ trax/panelframes to give this a whirl - I know a guy selling them CHEAP ;D
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I think something like the Trax? frame or Shurloc EZ frame would be ideal for this if you went that route. Just think no reclaiming, no chemicals no time, just pop out the mesh toss it in the trash pop in a new panel and coat it. Makes some sense.
I do a lot of one color jobs. So, why toss' em if they will repeat?
In fact, when I first got into shirt printing at a sporting goods store in the '80's, the owner had his own version of "retensionables" with wooden frames topped with short carpet spikes on strips that would hold the mesh. We cleaned, removed, and filed away.
As for cataloging screens, I tried it when I started on my own, and it only worked on certain jobs. It seems that notifying screen printers that the screens are not needed any longer is low on the list as a pizza restaurant folds.
They would need to used at least monthly to be worthwhile at all.
Now, when I worked at Andy's, we eventually had dozens and dozens (and eventually more dozens) of designs for the pre-print line, and kept the screens for all of them! That was a lot of screens! That way, whenever an order came up or there was free time, they were ready to go.
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There is no way tossing a frame is as cost effective as paying a kid 10$ to clean 15 screens in an hour and reuse them..... In my opinion....
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There is no way tossing a frame is as cost effective as paying a kid 10$ to clean 15 screens in an hour and reuse them..... In my opinion....
I would agree with this too.
not to mention that you have to deal with cataloging if you're 'keeping' the screens...
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I have 6 total screens stored for 2 clients who order about 10 shirts at a time. Designs are one color only. I wouldn't store em for multicolor jobs honestly unless it was super loose registration and no underbase needed. One screen can be used hundreds of times without issue and takes up very little room. Not sure why anyone would rather pay rent and the upfront cost of the screen for every job...
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I think it's pure economics, if your time and chemicals reclaiming cost more than a new frame then it's worth it.
Maybe using Newmans with the stretching table would make it economical, just replace the mesh.
Ryonet site has frames for $20 +, I don't see how it can pay not to reclaim.
We just set up a Saati spray system for cleaning and reclaiming. It's really easy and fast.
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The name of the company escapes me at the moment but they did not reclaim screens. If I remember correctly they were not textile printers but flat stock with chem based inks.
They were in a town/city that would not allow them to discharge any of the wastewater from the reclaim process down the drain.
They had a local screen supply company stretching frames for them. They had it worked out so they had a minimal amount of glue holding the mesh in place. They would print the job and pull the mesh. Every couple of days they would deliver a quantity of stripped frames and pick up newly stretched frames.
They had put a lot of time into finding water discharge solutions and this was the easiest for them.
I do not know if they are still in business or not...this was about 15 years ago.
I am sure the screen supply company was tickled pink with the constant stream of stretching to be done.
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Screens probably have the most ROI of anything in your shop. Pay $20-$30 for 1 screen and it'll print thousands of t-shirts. I don't hate reclaiming enough to do something like that. Also, it seems like it would be a pain to constantly throw out frames constantly or send them to be remeshed.
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Brent, the owner of the screen division of Xenon has always said this. He even has the math and a program set up for this. The secret is quantity. At the number of screens you would use to do this the cost drops dramatically. Wood would be used as there is no way to warp a wood screen without wetting it. No reclaim no wetting.
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Provided you have enough space to house all of these screens you'd be tossing.
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Or pay someone like me to pick up your dirty screens in the morning then clean them, maintain them, coat them and return them to you in the morning ready to burn. Pick up new dirty screens..
Wash rinse repeat
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I stumbled onto a vendor at an ISS show who did some printing on the side. He used Shurloc panels on Newman frames -- one time -- and resold the used, dirty ones for a few bucks. Eliminated reclaim and the sink and chemicals necessary to keep 'em in circulation. There's a logic to it.
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I believe the Trax panels are no longer available. A great concept and easy to stretch ....
Mark Diehl
Douthitt Corporation
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Tom,
so here is another opportunity.........if you don't want to reclaim and you are running statics, run the job , charge the customer for the screen and markup...clean the ink, GIVE THE SCREEN to the customer and tell them to store it and bring it back for the next job they want printed.
The down side of this is you have two major competitors just minutes from your door not to mention me a little farther away. If you add the $ for throw away screens your customers will walk next door based on $. If you let the screens out they will be taking them next door to get a discount because they have a screen, at the very least your competition will see who your customers are!
If you keep them you have storage, inventory, degradation / damage issues.
If you want to save the reclaim $ / labor BECAUSE the reclaim process costs you more than just buying more screens toss the screens . If the new statics + shipping cost more than reclaim suck it up and reclaim the screens.
You have to get a handle on what you reclaim is costing you per screen before you can decide which way to go.
Sounds to me like your reclaim guy just doesn't like to reclaim screens.
I am a solo act you know that....I can reclaim 8 screens in 30 minutes....1 minute ea to add the reclaim chemical, stack and let them sit for 12 minutes on a timer. Hit them with a pressure wash another minute ea max and de-grease another minute ea
so that is 8 minutes to apply reclaim chem + 12 minutes just sitting there + 8 minutes pressure was + 8 minutes degrease = 36 minutes on the high side. At $50 / hr overhead cost those 8 screens cost me about $6.25 ea. I am not accounting for water, reclaim chemical and electric power but that is a smaller portion of the $ / screen.
last I knew wood frames with 156 mesh cost more than twice that before shipping.
Add your reclaim with a paint roller , (fast and efficient), stack and let the screens set while the chemical works , line em up shoot em out wash and stack to dry and tell your reclaim guy to suck it up.
mooseman
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depending on how many screens you go through a year, an automated reclaim system might even be cheaper.
I seem to remember the little ones from Northwest Graphic are around 10-15k... at $10/screen for remesh before shipping, that's only 1000-1500 screens...
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I'd like to invest in auto reclaim at some point.
Homer, what are you using?
And does anyone know anything about this one?
http://www.davisint.com/p-747-automatic-screen-washer.aspx (http://www.davisint.com/p-747-automatic-screen-washer.aspx)
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I'd like to invest in auto reclaim at some point.
Homer, what are you using?
And does anyone know anything about this one?
[url]http://www.davisint.com/p-747-automatic-screen-washer.aspx[/url] ([url]http://www.davisint.com/p-747-automatic-screen-washer.aspx[/url])
this is the exact unit I was talking about... I guess it's a lot less expensive than I thought... hmmm....
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Anyone have one in use? I've been pretty intrigued by it but would like to get some working world feedback on it.
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you could build this for a fraction of the cost.
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Isn't this just for ink wash?
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looks like they have a separate unit for emulsion removal.
I would be interested if anybody would like to collaborate on a design for something like this.
I have a CNC router which could easily machine any of the custom plastic parts.
the rest of it would probably be commonly available from grainger or any other 'automation' parts vendor (thinking some cyilders to move the heads back and forth, a bit of plumbing pieces, some pneumatic operated pumps, flow control valves, etc).
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I too am very interested in that unit, or one like it, was thinking of buying one or two of them soon and incorporating them in a dip tank line to semi-automate reclaim. Seems like a no brainer to at least eliminate the standing around and holding the press washer.
Does anyone know of a unit that uses electricity v. air for the pressure? We would prefer that here I think, that's a lot of air consumption on those units.
I would be game to collaborate on a unit. All I'm looking for is a box that scans with pressure washer and filters out the ink and emulsion that comes off, no chem. Reusing the filtered water would be a huge plus. Same unit could be used for resolving screens.
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I believe there is a shop here in town using one for the ink removal and another for stencil remover. I may have to pay them a vist. I think they are mostly plastisol.
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I believe there is a shop here in town using one for the ink removal and another for stencil remover. I may have to pay them a vist. I think they are mostly plastisol.
Let me know how it's working out for them. I'm wondering why more shops aren't using these...
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Let me know how it's working out for them. I'm wondering why more shops aren't using these...
Unfortunately I think the answer is what we fear. I've seen a lot of variations of the "scanning pressure washer head inside
dip tank" idea and have never heard good things. Solid idea, but doesn't seem to pan out in reality.
Hell, if the $75k ones worked as well as claimed I'd bet more folks would have one.
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Let me know how it's working out for them. I'm wondering why more shops aren't using these...
Unfortunately I think the answer is what we fear. I've seen a lot of variations of the "scanning pressure washer head inside
dip tank" idea and have never heard good things. Solid idea, but doesn't seem to pan out in reality.
Hell, if the $75k ones worked as well as claimed I'd bet more folks would have one.
Well that's a shame. My idea is to dip tank for chems and only use the units to press rinse the screens with plain, warm water. This seems super easy to automate right? Basic press washer array on either side that travels on a rail, maybe a top rinse setup to rinse down any stray chunks of stuff after the press wash passes.
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Let me know how it's working out for them. I'm wondering why more shops aren't using these...
Unfortunately I think the answer is what we fear. I've seen a lot of variations of the "scanning pressure washer head inside
dip tank" idea and have never heard good things. Solid idea, but doesn't seem to pan out in reality.
Hell, if the $75k ones worked as well as claimed I'd bet more folks would have one.
Well that's a shame. My idea is to dip tank for chems and only use the units to press rinse the screens with plain, warm water. This seems super easy to automate right? Basic press washer array on either side that travels on a rail, maybe a top rinse setup to rinse down any stray chunks of stuff after the press wash passes.
I think Rhino tech has something like that for around 10k. Basically 2 wands with 4 spray nozzles that spin and move left to right in an enclosed tank.
On a side note, not to derail the post, does anyone use a separate dip tank for dehazing?
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1) tank 1: 50/50 water and CCI IW107
2) rinse
3) tank 2: Gem-zyme
4)powerwash
5) compressed air
6) rack it up.
i'll time the next round of screens and compare.
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1) tank 1: 50/50 water and CCI IW107
2) rinse
3) tank 2: Gem-zyme
4)powerwash
5) compressed air
6) rack it up.
i'll time the next round of screens and compare.
Awesome, thank you. Any scrubbing needed after the dehaze dip or you just power wash it straight out of the tank?
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1) tank 1: 50/50 water and CCI IW107
2) rinse
3) tank 2: Gem-zyme
4)powerwash
5) compressed air
6) rack it up.
i'll time the next round of screens and compare.
Awesome, thank you. Any scrubbing needed after the dehaze dip or you just power wash it straight out of the tank?
Neither of those is a de-haze. First one is a screen wash and the second an emulsion remover.
If you were to use a tank for de-haze, remember that most are 5-10 minutes tops. Make sure that you don't get into an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality.
I don't know if there would be a big advantage with a tank for this step.
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Yeah my fault I looked up the chemicals after the face to realize they weren't dehazers. Wasn't sure if there was a real time savings here, just curious.
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no dehaze needed 99% off the time. time savings is huge. I guarantee, we doubled our through put going this route. no scrubbing, no spraying. just power washing and rinsing with a hose. With the IW107/water mixture, ink stays on the screen until you hit it with light hose pressure...been using this system for about a year.
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https://youtu.be/KLx19HD7I6g
I have attached a video of the Saati system I have set up, it's really fast and what I like is that it doesn't have dip tanks, you are using fresh chemicals all the time. I had a dip tank but after a while it gets messy especially it you have workers who leave screens in it etc.
I'd like to find a way to semi automate the water spraying, maybe a tank with jets on both sides that I can manually drop the screen into.
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no dehaze needed 99% off the time. time savings is huge. I guarantee, we doubled our through put going this route. no scrubbing, no spraying. just power washing and rinsing with a hose. With the IW107/water mixture, ink stays on the screen until you hit it with light hose pressure...been using this system for about a year.
Thats pretty awesome, I may need to try that.
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Nation, is de-hazing a standard step for you, or is it just some problem screens? Is it "haze" or stains?
When I did close to full time screen cleaning, my rule of thumb was if haze either clogged the mesh or could affect coating, or if a stain was obvious enough to possibly affect exposure times of delicate halftone areas, it was de-hazed.
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Nation, is de-hazing a standard step for you, or is it just some problem screens? Is it "haze" or stains?
When I did close to full time screen cleaning, my rule of thumb was if haze either clogged the mesh or could affect coating, or if a stain was obvious enough to possibly affect exposure times of delicate halftone areas, it was de-hazed.
It has always been a standard step. I currently do not use a dip tank at all so I would add the emulsion stripper, let sit for a little while. Power wash the emulsion off and then spray with dehazer, scrub, and then power wash again.
Even when there wasn't terrible stains I will do it because i figured the dehazer acts as a degreaser as well, no? Sounds like dehazing isn't always necessary, so maybe I can save myself some time moving forward.
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Nation, is de-hazing a standard step for you, or is it just some problem screens? Is it "haze" or stains?
When I did close to full time screen cleaning, my rule of thumb was if haze either clogged the mesh or could affect coating, or if a stain was obvious enough to possibly affect exposure times of delicate halftone areas, it was de-hazed.
It has always been a standard step. I currently do not use a dip tank at all so I would add the emulsion stripper, let sit for a little while. Power wash the emulsion off and then spray with dehazer, scrub, and then power wash again.
Even when there wasn't terrible stains I will do it because i figured the dehazer acts as a degreaser as well, no? Sounds like dehazing isn't always necessary, so maybe I can save myself some time moving forward.
Well yes it's true some dehazers like CCI liquid renuit for instance, also work as a degreaser, they also do have the habit of being hard on the mesh like I mentioned. For that matter, many who use the right chemicals, seem to think that they don't even need a degreaser and do fine without it.
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[url]https://youtu.be/KLx19HD7I6g[/url] ([url]https://youtu.be/KLx19HD7I6g[/url])
I have attached a video of the Saati system I have set up, it's really fast and what I like is that it doesn't have dip tanks, you are using fresh chemicals all the time. I had a dip tank but after a while it gets messy especially it you have workers who leave screens in it etc.
I'd like to find a way to semi automate the water spraying, maybe a tank with jets on both sides that I can manually drop the screen into.
Hi Maxie
a thought for you attached is a typical high pressure water pump and some literature on industrial spray nozzles / headers and manifolds.
There are several manufacturers of such pumps, Goulds / G&L Grundfus are the most popular and each example here have international distributors. The nozzles can be purchased in banks or as individual nozzles for headers you make. The pressures and spray patterns are endless.
Below are a couple of simple examples of typical pumps and one source for nozzles.
Depending on the pump you select and the flow and pressure you might expect to spend less than $1000.00
for the complete collection of components. the nozzles by the way are relatively inexpensive as individual items. The pumps can range from 2 or 3 hundred to as much as you can stand to spend.
Ask any questions.
mooseman
http://goulds.com/centrifugal-pumps-boosters/single-stage-end-suction/lb-booster-pump/ (http://goulds.com/centrifugal-pumps-boosters/single-stage-end-suction/lb-booster-pump/)
http://goulds.com/centrifugal-pumps-boosters/multi-stage-end-suction/e-hm-series-stainless-steel-horizontal-multistage-pumps/ (http://goulds.com/centrifugal-pumps-boosters/multi-stage-end-suction/e-hm-series-stainless-steel-horizontal-multistage-pumps/)
http://us.grundfos.com/products/find-product/mq.html (http://us.grundfos.com/products/find-product/mq.html)
Spray nozzles
http://www.spray.com/fabricated_products/headers-manifolds.aspx (http://www.spray.com/fabricated_products/headers-manifolds.aspx)
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Thanks, that's helpful information.
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Some great stuff in this thread, and the pump stuff from moose, thanks man! gonna keep those links in my bookmarks as I'm working in a manual reclaim machine kind of thing that will use a manifold with numerous tips.
something i learned from spraying inside a tank.. foaming, think dish detergent in a fountain foaming up. Check the chemical you're using as you may need to add a defoamer like they do with the recirculation tanks.
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1) tank 1: 50/50 water and CCI IW107
2) rinse
3) tank 2: Gem-zyme
4)powerwash
5) compressed air
6) rack it up.
i'll time the next round of screens and compare.
Just to be clear you are NOT degreasing the screens at the end?
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1) tank 1: 50/50 water and CCI IW107
2) rinse
3) tank 2: Gem-zyme
4)powerwash
5) compressed air
6) rack it up.
i'll time the next round of screens and compare.
Just to be clear you are NOT degreasing the screens at the end?
nope.
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1) tank 1: 50/50 water and CCI IW107
2) rinse
3) tank 2: Gem-zyme
4)powerwash
5) compressed air
6) rack it up.
i'll time the next round of screens and compare.
Just to be clear you are NOT degreasing the screens at the end?
nope.
for an informal study I'm doing on degreasing vs not-degreasing...
is your water city or well?
are you filtering your water? (if so, how many micron filter)?
do you have a water softener?
we were on a well (softener and water filter) at our home shop and rarely had problems when not degreasing.
when we moved to our commercial location, we started having tons of problems with fish eyes and water marks... once we started degreasing all the problems went away.
I attribute it to the water here, but don't know as we changed SO many other variables during the move.
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we used to degrease with simple green or greased lightning, haven't noticed a bit of difference. City water, no additives. no filters.
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1) tank 1: 50/50 water and CCI IW107
2) rinse
3) tank 2: Gem-zyme
4)powerwash
5) compressed air
6) rack it up.
i'll time the next round of screens and compare.
Just to be clear you are NOT degreasing the screens at the end?
nope.
Awesome. Thanks, I am going to implement this. This would make a huge difference for us.
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Awesome. Thanks, I am going to implement this. This would make a huge difference for us.
I suggest that you try this first with only a couple of screens as, has been pointed out, it does not seem to work for everyone.
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Why not do a whole rack? ;D
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Awesome. Thanks, I am going to implement this. This would make a huge difference for us.
I suggest that you try this first with only a couple of screens as, has been pointed out, it does not seem to work for everyone.
Absolutely. I've learned my lesson and test and retest everything