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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: sqslabs on June 02, 2016, 02:56:00 PM
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We recently got a Wilflex PC mixing system, and have been pretty happy with it so far. This week, we've had to deal with some pretty precise color matching, and every color I mix looks great in the bucket, and then shifts way lighter on an underbase and throws the color off completely. It doesn't seem to be a heat issue, as it looks the same with the base completely cooled down.
I've tried both Wilflex Mixing Base and Synergy Base with the same results. We don't have these issues with our house colors, only the ones we mix.. I'm currently using Miami Superior as an underbase, but am gonna switch it out to Synergy White and see if it makes a difference.
Any help would be appreciated, I'm at my wits end and need to get these jobs out the door today.
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Typical. What color (Blues, greens, reds). 2 ways to deal with it. Try a lower mesh count for the top color or pick a pantone that is slightly darker than the desired color. Either one should get you where you want to be.
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I am surprised this is across the board. I would say this is most evident with saturated (middle chip) colors. Colors with more white, or stronger pigments "should" hold color on an underlay. Whites with BR that use the expansion agent however, can and will certainly affect (lighten) the over print color. Do you have any straight cotton white? If so, do a test print to see.
Are you using the Wilflex IMS software. If so, it is easy to just decrease the base percentage (thus increasing all PC's equally by percentage). This will allow you to have stronger color for holding on an underlay.
Wilflex PMS color formulations were approved through 156 mesh printed on white cotton. First priority was to match color; second was to give a degree of opacity or color strength; third was to factor in cost. The PC's are the expensive part of the formula. Most formulas average around 20% load, but the the base can generally hold a lot more. The software allows you to maximize the strength if required.
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My first thought would be the ink's translucency explaining the difference of how it looks in the bucket as opposed to a super thin film atop a white base.
Couldn't you just kick up its opacity?
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The colors I've had issues with today are three colors in the blue & purple range, on top of a base coat of cotton white. I am using the IMS software, and just figured out how to clone a formula and adjust the percentage of base. For reference, what is the max pigment load? The color I'm currently shooting for lists as 86.65% base, and gives a warning at anything under 75% base. Is this warning system a good rule of thumb to how far pigs can be pushed?
Thanks for the quick responses.
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My first thought would be the ink's translucency explaining the difference of how it looks in the bucket as opposed to a super thin film atop a white base.
Couldn't you just kick up its opacity?
Yeah, I'm just not quite sure how to make that happen as I'm still pretty green when it comes to plastisol mixing systems. I was under the impression that different bases would offer different opacity levels, but after using two different bases with similar results, it seems to be the pigment part of the equation that makes the difference.
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The colors I've had issues with today are three colors in the blue & purple range, on top of a base coat of cotton white. I am using the IMS software, and just figured out how to clone a formula and adjust the percentage of base. For reference, what is the max pigment load? The color I'm currently shooting for lists as 86.65% base, and gives a warning at anything under 75% base. Is this warning system a good rule of thumb to how far pigs can be pushed?
Thanks for the quick responses.
The warning in the software is what you need to use as MAX. I would always stay a little below.
The base load depends COMPLETELY on the pigments used. For instance, you can use roughly 4x the amount of white pc as black pc. So in your example, less than 14% pc load in the original formula. If you increased it to 20% (which is 80% base, well below the minimum of 75%), you are effectively increasing the pigment load by over 40%! This will definitely improve the coverage on white underlay.
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I will add that certain pigments are much weaker in strength. For instance, Marine Blue (red shade) is highly saturate but very weak. So increasing the load will have little affect on opacity. Blue PC (green shade) is very strong.
As a general rule of thumb, heavy loads of flourescent and marine pigment will result in more transparent colors. Your most opaque will have high loadings of white and yellow. White and yellow will probably account for 40% of your total pigment consumption. This is true in the Wilflex systems and the brand R systems.
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Depending on garment color and Pantone transparency you could use Russell Grey as an underlay.
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Give the Wilflex amazing base a shot.
I started mixing with the pc system. Wasn't a fan then and still aren't as I find the pc system requires to much altering to get what you want. If you need precise color control, I mean really precise then pc is what you want as explained by the guys with pigment loading and such.
For the everyday plastisol stuff the Wilfrex epic eq series is my favorite with amazing base.
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if you a printing a thin deposit of ink (305 mesh) on top of the underbase, it is not thick enough to be opaque and ubase will make it look brighter. you can either compensate for that by choosing a darker shade to start with or going with thicker mesh. In case of printing WOW, thicker mesh is not an option so you'll need to make the ink darker than it needs to be. Mixing systems have to be somewhat translucent in order to work well.
pierre
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Also are you using the base as your finish white in the design? If so, then you would need to "load" the pigments and use a lower mesh.
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Most of the comments so far are true Sqslabs. The problem as you have suggested; the over-print color is incompatible with the underbase. Compatibility means the over-print color wants to "wet-out" the surface of the under-base and that under-base can grip the over-print color.
Synergy Base has excellent wetting properties (low surface tension) but in this case your UB (think "Teflon") is unable to grip the over-print color. If you put a loupe on the final print it will look "stucco". The worst colors will be blues, blacks and whites due to the type of plasticozer used in those PC's. If the color match contains any fluorescent PC the surface tension will be off the chain.
NexGen Cotton (white) will provide significantly better results. We have two years of success with our Base on our White with WPC's. In a 150-ish mesh it will flash in 1-2 seconds but even if you over flash (3-5 sec) the color will be more homogenouo.
Use NexGen Base over NexGen Cotton and if the results are anything short of superb, PM me and we will work on it together.
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My former company used two underlays on every job, an in-house made cotton gray (made from cotton white) underbased everything and a white only went under the lighter colors. It solved the color shifting problems. Before that we halftoned the underbase white to allow the different colors to lay on different tones.
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Like Pierre I'd say mesh count is key.
We have been using Wilflex PC syetem for 15+ years.
From our experience 200, 230, 255 is about as high as one can go and not let underbase effect top colors.
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Wow, thanks for all the responses and suggestions, I'll definitely be putting everything to use in dialing in the issue. To answer the questions asked, the top colors are getting printed through a 225S and we are using a separate top white screen.
The gray base is an interesting suggestion, and I can definitely see how that could help. Mixing a darker color, although I get the idea, requires either a really good initial guess in how the color is going to shift, or a re-mix which can put a stop to production if the job is already on press. I guess I just figured that a plastisol mixing system would be a bit more RFU and print closer to the way our standard bucket colors do right out of the gate. Helps me to remember just how technical what we do really is, and that there isn't a one size fits all solution to getting ink on a shirt.
I got the PC system mainly for sim process work as we were getting a lot of it at the time and paying a local ink distributor to mix quarts way too often. It does take a bit longer to mix than I'd like and maybe the EQ's would have been a better bet. Leave it to me to always go for the options with the "most control" only to find out it was completely unnecessary for our shop. :o
Of course once we had the system and our sim work was starting to look decent, the orders switched to oversized high-color pantone-spec'd spot designs with huge underbases and now we're figuring out how to deal with that new challenge. I guess life gives you what you need!
In regards to the underbase white, we're currently experimenting with NexGen Cotton White but are having some dryer temp and belt speed issues that I'd like to eliminate before we fully make the switch. I'm really happy with what we've seen so far though in regards to brightness, print speed, and (lack of) after flash tack. We're bringing in a tech this month who knows our dryer inside and out to finally get the issues buttoned up which will give me a lot more confidence when it comes to house ink changes.
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Not nec new news. Way back in the day and for a long time Nike required all their colors to be submitted on white swatch and black with a UB. Formulas for the same colors were different ie stronger on the UB
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We mix Epic PC colors at maximum pig load to start and then base back as desired. When we first brought the system in, the standard formulas were all reading very light and washed out on white Ts or over white base, upping the pigment solves it. Just clone the formula and copy/paste the "min base" figure into your user formula.
QCM used to and I think Rutland also does have formulas for use on white, I believe they were called "white plate" formulas or something.
In my eyes, the PC system has three main benefits: ultimate control, ability to mix Performance inks and cost savings.
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At QCM I was making the white plate formulas. We were still adding to it when Rutland bought us.
I have not seen any formulas to date in Rutlands mixing system that are for white plates.
Needing to maximize pigment load for opacity is normal and has been normal for decades. Even then.... you will need to adjust....
Welcome to the creation of your own custom library :)
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We mix Epic PC colors at maximum pig load to start and then base back as desired. When we first brought the system in, the standard formulas were all reading very light and washed out on white Ts or over white base, upping the pigment solves it. Just clone the formula and copy/paste the "min base" figure into your user formula.
Just wanted to update the thread. We did some experimentation today using the formula straight from the IMS software, and then using the above method, and using a higher pigment load definitely solved the problem with the color we used today. The results were night and day different, and we finally got the opacity we were looking for. Thanks ZooCity!
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Anytime!
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Hi All
White under bases do have an effect on the more transparent colours - try knocking back the bright whites with a bit of black and the under base will become more neutral - thus less light will refract through the over laid colour - if blues are causing the major problem in a print sequence - add a little bit of blue to under base white - just enough to take the brightness out of the under base white ????
Philip Collins-Shone
Area Sales Manager, EMEA Specialty Inks and Polymer Systems
PolyOne Corporation
Philip.collins-shone@polyone.com
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]The problem I see is your at max..load level and they were tested on 156 mesh on white.. printing over a base you cant drop your mesh to 156 unless your planning on flashing every color.
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]The problem I see is your at max..load level and they were tested on 156 mesh on white.. printing over a base you cant drop your mesh to 156 unless your planning on flashing every color.
And there's the rub.
Max pig loading = better color rendition over base but worse wet on wet performance. Toss in additional ink film thickness and some colors just have to be flashed to match correctly over a base.
Phillip's suggestion is excellent, we've variously based back white ub's and/or used greys for problem areas like this. Sometimes it's the only fix.
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One awful print we were doing (with t-shirts and hoodies in the order of course) had a darker than scarlet red and a dark maroon. The only way we could end up getting the color correct was first with a white base then grey base, then the colors. It took trying a few different Pantones as well.
Just tinting our regular low bleed white would probably be the best option - there was grey in the print though hence that order. Everything took precise squeegees, strokes, flashing, etc.
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Hi All
White under bases do have an effect on the more transparent colours - try knocking back the bright whites with a bit of black and the under base will become more neutral - thus less light will refract through the over laid colour - if blues are causing the major problem in a print sequence - add a little bit of blue to under base white - just enough to take the brightness out of the under base white ????
Philip Collins-Shone
Area Sales Manager, EMEA Specialty Inks and Polymer Systems
PolyOne Corporation
Philip.collins-shone@polyone.com
I assume the same will work for purple inks. But what do you do in case the underbase has to cover or better underbase two different colors ?
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Use the grey - it is more neutral across the colour palette - the key is to reduce the brightness of the under base so the light does not reflect back through the colour. Grey under bases work particularly well when dealing with multiple colour ways of garments with the same print on them.
Philip Collins-Shone
Area Sales Manager, EMEA Specialty Inks and Polymer Systems
PolyOne Corporation
Philip.collins-shone@polyone.com