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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: ericheartsu on May 23, 2016, 10:17:44 AM
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After a very brief discussion with Brandon via Text, I'm wondering how many of you have switched from all rollers to all Static Smesh?
Give me the pros and cons!
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we had a bastard assortment of rollers and panel frames, crappy statics from that company with an X...cough cough.... Over the past year we have ditched every single one of them in place of S mesh statics from River City. I tried stretching my own but the math didn't make sense -at all- between grinding and the glue, it would take me 3 years to recover the cost of the stretcher alone.... once they rip, off to the scrap yard...
odd man out here but one glorious day was when we shelved our rollers.
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Same here, 14 years all rollers, last 5 years static S mesh. Doubt I would ever go back.
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What's the reason you guys didn't throw S mesh on the rollers? You already had that equipment just not the mesh.
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Questions to those who are statics:
What percentage of your work is plastisol?
What percentage of your work is waterbase type inks?
For those who do plastisol:
Do you do primarily discharge bases or plastisol?
And to bump Admirals question:
Why not stretch your retens with S mesh?
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What's the reason you guys didn't throw S mesh on the rollers? You already had that equipment just not the mesh.
This is what we do now, but we don't have a dedicated person to restretching screens, and i feel like we are losing the value of the rollers because of it.
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roughly 60/40 waterbase / plastisol.
for me and my systems, Rollers were a pain to handle and clean in our series of cleaning tanks. Those channels would take forever to dry on rollers too. One other reason we started to hate the panelframes. When we popped mesh and had to replace, I noticed we were spending way too much time cleaning/prepping the frame for new mesh. Our screens would last a while so the gunk would build up. We had to tape rollers too, and I hate tape. It's a waste of time and money. With our statics, we can use the wider scoop coater and we use emulsion for blockout when needed. this makes reclaim a breeze . . Coating rollers was always a mess with the softened corners. We could never get the hang of it. 100% on us and our lack of knowledge how to use them properly, I know that. But instead of chasing our tail, go with what works and for us, it turns out to be these S mesh statics.
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90 percent statics here, I found out that I'm not that good at remeshing cuzI didn't always get the mesh square to the frame and it was causing moire and bad looking halftones, so I just buy from the guys that do this every day and know what they are doing. S mesh is really good mesh especially for white base ink prints and if you need a nice full coverage in one stroke of any other ink color.
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All statics, 85% WB. Rollers won't work on our presses. Scott and Brannon handle the re-stretch. Two pallets on their way to ATL today
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Side question
for those of you using s mesh, what dyed mesh are you using for under 150s? we are having exposing issues with white mesh and our I-Image, so i need some yellows in my life.
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Used a mix of rollers and static until we got the auto a few years ago. All static s mesh now. Learning to love the 150 and yes...135's for laying down the white. Low pressure, straight up and down blade and fast stroke. Still got some playing to do :-)
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roughly 60/40 waterbase / plastisol.
for me and my systems, Rollers were a pain to handle and clean in our series of cleaning tanks. Those channels would take forever to dry on rollers too. One other reason we started to hate the panelframes. When we popped mesh and had to replace, I noticed we were spending way too much time cleaning/prepping the frame for new mesh. Our screens would last a while so the gunk would build up. We had to tape rollers too, and I hate tape. It's a waste of time and money. With our statics, we can use the wider scoop coater and we use emulsion for blockout when needed. this makes reclaim a breeze . . Coating rollers was always a mess with the softened corners. We could never get the hang of it. 100% on us and our lack of knowledge how to use them properly, I know that. But instead of chasing our tail, go with what works and for us, it turns out to be these S mesh statics.
Have you been able to eliminate tape for the wb/dc jobs as well by using statics?
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roughly 60/40 waterbase / plastisol.
for me and my systems, Rollers were a pain to handle and clean in our series of cleaning tanks. Those channels would take forever to dry on rollers too. One other reason we started to hate the panelframes. When we popped mesh and had to replace, I noticed we were spending way too much time cleaning/prepping the frame for new mesh. Our screens would last a while so the gunk would build up. We had to tape rollers too, and I hate tape. It's a waste of time and money. With our statics, we can use the wider scoop coater and we use emulsion for blockout when needed. this makes reclaim a breeze . . Coating rollers was always a mess with the softened corners. We could never get the hang of it. 100% on us and our lack of knowledge how to use them properly, I know that. But instead of chasing our tail, go with what works and for us, it turns out to be these S mesh statics.
Have you been able to eliminate tape for the wb/dc jobs as well by using statics?
yup. If we have a longer run, we bust out a gallon of HXT and use it as block out. but that's rare. I want smooth and seamless reclaim. It's the one area I worked at the old shop and hated. straight off the press into tank 1, rinse, into tank 2, powerwash, compressed air and done.
with the rollers, the softened corners would always leak if we didn't tape them. I'm just against tape and the waste it brings.
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Homer, what are you using in your ink tank again (and emulsion tank as well I guess)? I'm curious about trying out an ink tank and separate emulsion tank vs the supra and 701 process I'm currently using. Same amount of steps I think, but no scrubbing sounds awesome!
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CCI IW 07 or 08, can't recall. it's cheap and works great, add a little air hose for agitation and grab a beer. They'll be done in a few minutes. gem-zyme in tank 2....
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Any issues with ink sludge? My ONLY issue with Supra is that I get ink sludge at the bottom of the tank after a while, mostly black, which will catch in the little seam between where the mesh is glued to the metal frame on my statics. Every once in a while if I am not careful I will get ink on my hands from this while setting up or spinning my press during a print run. I wish every ink acted like White in this sense, where the supra loosens it up plenty to pressure wash off the screen, but none of it actually breaks down in the tank. With black, and some of the other thinner inks, they will breakdown and come off the emulsion a little.
Sorry, I know this is a tangent of sorts...
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Any issues with ink sludge? My ONLY issue with Supra is that I get ink sludge at the bottom of the tank after a while, mostly black, which will catch in the little seam between where the mesh is glued to the metal frame on my statics. Every once in a while if I am not careful I will get ink on my hands from this while setting up or spinning my press during a print run. I wish every ink acted like White in this sense, where the supra loosens it up plenty to pressure wash off the screen, but none of it actually breaks down in the tank. With black, and some of the other thinner inks, they will breakdown and come off the emulsion a little.
Sorry, I know this is a tangent of sorts...
ink does not remove itself from the screen until light water pressure is applied. ink sludge = zero.
statics are the jam in my shop. we tried every style of frame we could and came full circle back to them. Maintenance was a huge deal breaker as well.
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good to know!
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After a very brief discussion with Brandon via Text, I'm wondering how many of you have switched from all rollers to all Static Smesh?
Give me the pros and cons!
Earlier this year I visited the shop where Marshall Atkinson ran in Milwaukee, WI with 12 automatic presses and there wasn't a single roller frame in sight. Every press was running stretch and glue frames with permanent blockout and a corner bead sealant that allowed the frames to be used without any tape other than what is used to cover registration marks. These guys are saving a boatload of cash not not paying to purchase or apply screen tape.
In addition they are having a positive impact on the environment by not dumping miles and miles of inky tape into a land fill. One could argue that this shop could be printing higher quality images with mesh that was stretched to higher tension on roller frames, but given the market ad specialty / corporate apparel market they serve I believe that they're streets ahead with the tape-less and permanent blockout static frames.
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manual , all MZX square bar, 80% s-mesh rest regular run of the mill mesh.
We seem to have no problem throwing s-mesh into rollers.
mooseman
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We are mostly static. We have a few dozen manual and machine sized rollers, but the staff is not particularly fond of them, particularly for manual printing. Now on the very rare occasion that I print something, (usually a personal project) I like the rollers, but I'm not at a press all day, so I let them do it their way as long as the results are there.
Steve
We have an M & R Blue Max stretcher we got years ago (20?) at an auction. With the extension bars, we can remake our number screens (84") and large poster screens, though we don't do flat work anymore, as well as the manual and auto sizes... nice unit, but I always keep my eye open for a Harlacher...
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Since we are doing more sim process work, I love the rollers with s mesh. I think out of the last 60 screens I've made I've had to use a micro on 1 because it was out like a 32nd. For the everyday stuff though I like the statics due to the lack of maintenance.
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Eric and Val (Night Owls) and I speak all the time and we all help each other out. Just like on this board. In regards to what him and I were speaking about with statics as usual every shop is different. We are about 95% water base / discharge and with most of our turn around times being 2 or 3 days tops it works for us. Rollers are amazing and for plastisol you will reap huge rewards as long as you have someone to stay on top of them. Because if you don't at the end of the day a roller that is not cared for becomes a static.
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I can literally hear the industry vets collectively banging their heads against the wall
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I can literally hear the industry vets collectively banging their heads against the wall
Tony is the one who helped open my eyes in regards to water base printing and what works with regards to screens. You have to figure out what works for your shop. We have a very niche market we serve.
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A big difference is the quality of these statics.
We've always used statics and only since last year started getting our statics from Spot Color Supply. Both S-mesh and Saati higher mesh counts. They are so much better in comparison to the crappy statics we used to get elsewhere. Previously I thought we'd eventually need to get rollers... but now I don't see why.
For us in our shop they work great.
We are all manual and print about 75% spot color work and about 75% plastisol. We often use a discharge base for sim process and 4cp.
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We run s mesh, even the delicate stuff, on all rollers. Reten is part of the screen flow, less work than fighting a low tension screen on press imo. My staff has never had to worry about sloppy screens, I figure there's enough other variables to deal with, may as well control one that is relatively easy. Breakage due to using rollers is very rare, our mesh tends to expire due to abrasion from the blade during printing.
But I hate tape, the time it takes and of course the waste.
I guess I just need to try this out and scratch the itch. My concern is that we'll have wb ink leakage using only emulsion as the "tape", or that perm blockout. We also top tape along the blade edges since a lot of the print runs are getting longer here. But it sounds like it could work out from the reports here.
Had anyone regretted making this change?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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for whatever reason in our shop, I find that roller frames register on press quicker and easier than the static frames.
.. even when the static frames are at nearly the exact same tension.
Not sure why this is, but for tight-registration jobs we always go roller frame...
We do have a bunch of statics that we use, and have remeshed as well.
for 1 color and non-tight registration work, you can't beat the lightness, ease of cleaning, or cost.
We do not run permanent blockout tho, as those screens tend to make a giant mess during reclaim because it reflects the pressure washer spray back at you
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I think Rollers have been marketed because of the high tension they can hold.
What tension are you able to maintain on your statics?
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Ive been tossing the idea back and forth to sell all these roller frames and table and go statics. We have a 50/50 collection now of both types of frames and I have to say, my statics from Spot Color supply that are meshed with S mesh hold their tension. Handling a static is 100 times nicer, lighter, no worries about all the tape and when reclaiming statics are way less work all the way around. There is no difference in our printing from static to rollers so the only upside I see right now is that I have them and can stretch them myself, but even that, if you use panels, they are expensive and the time involved. I now know of lots of very high end print shops that only use statics so the myth that owning roller frames will put you above others is just that, a myth. The work is out there. It's now just time to see who I can get to buy all these rollers, lol, especially now that I typed this big book, hahahhah. I will say there are companies out there that do a half a$$ job of re stretching so you need a good one, and we use Spot Color Supply in Atlanta. I don't care about the time or the freight cost because Scott and Brannon stand behind their work, and do the best screens I've had since we've been in business. If you are going with S mesh, I don't see the roller being a necessity any more, honestly.
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Scott and Brannon take en extra step or two to pre-treat the frames before stretching. They keep getting better at this. Pretty sure other stretching svcs are not doing it how they are. They shared a tip with me as we have the ability to stretch our own to supplement. But they do it so well and probably less expensive to use them.
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How much is spot color paying you guys to say all of this?
Honestly, I hate you guys. I really didn't want to get into S-mesh because it's another mesh and I'd have a mixture of meshes and so on, but it looks like that is the route I am going to have to take.
I am getting some screens from them today, it's my first order in a while for restretches with them and I am looking forward to it.
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Since going to s mesh statics I have to say that printing has become much easier.
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One of the biggest reasons why we do the amount of work we do with a crew of 3 is because of good screens. We use all rollers but I've said, before they were making them, that a properly stretched static with S thread will do about 80% of what a roller will do, maybe 90% in the right hands. From a business standpoint and ROI a roller frame can't be beat. It cannot be beat as well when it comes to print quality and setup times but the shop has to find out what level of quality they want to achieve, how fast they need to turn jobs and a few other things and make the decision. There may be a few areas where a static will be better than a roller and the differences have been hashed out many times over the years so we don't need to go there. A roller frame is better than a static just like a SUPER SHARP squeegee blade is better than a SHARP blade but at what level does the shop in question need to perform? Our shop needs to maximize every second we have. We're doing 15-20 setups per day on average, 8-12 jobs per day, average 950 shirts/1500 impressions per day, mostly on darks and 99% plastisol...one press, 3 guys and me when needed. Some weeks we'll do 10,000 impressions and only 25 jobs and other weeks we'll do 4,000 for the week and 50 jobs. We couldn't do the work we do in the time we do it with statics, but I think we could get pretty close. I just like buying a frame once and it will forever be able to print if taken care of. I like the added sweet spot, the added durability (static S thread will not last as long as a properly stretched roller), full control over the mesh I want to use and how it's stretched, but most shops don't need what I like to use. I don't like being forced to use a very small selection of mesh counts so rollers are the only way around that.
I'm not trying to talk anyone out of statics, I'd be wasting my time. A really good static, with the right mesh count will perform beyond what many printers can do but they will not outperform a roller.
We've used rollers, went to statics, then to rollers and Shurloc EZ frames, and now back to 90% rollers/10% statics so it's not like we don't have much experience with the different types of screens. I buy statics from time to time and they are in and out of the production loop on a daily basis. We lose statics due to busting at about a 3 to 1 rate versus rollers and I've been keeping up with that stat for about 4 years now so it's another one of those things that can be argued about but it is what it is and nothing will change that.
Sorry, couldn't let a thread about rollers and statics go by without giving my .02. I try my best to put as much context into my posts because, well, I won't get too far into it but many of the most important details on the roller versus static debate are left out for obvious reasons.
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All true but statics+WB=win. Rollers+WB=overkill
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Well written as usual Alan, but I don't get how setting up a roller frame on a press is faster than a static, but that may be because of the presses we use. Our MHM's system is pins, and doesn't matter at all when inserting into the press, all the frames have pins on them, there are no other options on an MHM.
Steve
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Funny thing though..............so very many shops never work harden their rollers. Can't remember if I ever was in one and I've been around. At any rate, my presses are old and the clamp system won't accept them.
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As a new-ish I-Image ST user, the tension/Work hardened level of screens is more apparent in setup times.
We've all got a couple statics that survived the last few years.... ( Or rollers that never got retensioned because of a hole or whatever reason) Putting one of those low tensioned screens into the loop means a zero chance of the reg being bang on. With my work hardened 30 N screens, I can pretty much send 14 shirts around before even checking the reg. 9.5 times out of 10 it is perfect. the other .5 it is well within the tolerances I see on retail ready shirts and a quick twist of the micros and were off. Granted we do a lot of Sim process, I fully respect that each shop is different.
That would be my biggest concern. Different tensioned statics giving us issues on press with registration. Once a screen is ripped, or replaced, it is tossed into production with statics that have been around for years.
My 2cents.
Im with Alan, we are a shop that utilizes the full control over the rollers.
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Early this year we got around 30 of our old statics re-stretched by Murakami with S-mesh. They came back at a tension level of 28N for a 150-S. 1000 impressions later that level just dropped by 2N. Impressive if you ask me. All screens come back like brand new, all cleaned. At $25 for each re-stretched screen a no brainer for us. Still got 150 statics that need to be converted to S-mesh. We have as well 72 Newman frames but I can`t see us investing in more. Too expensive especially if you take the high overseas shipping rates into account.
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I always wanted to invest and switch over to strictly shurloc frames, but the time hasn't come yet. Until then, these static S-mesh screens have been great. River City seems to do a good job stretching them, but I'm curious about spot colors frames with the permanent block out. I'd like to try going tape free, other then the mesh protection tape.
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Well written as usual Alan, but I don't get how setting up a roller frame on a press is faster than a static, but that may be because of the presses we use. Our MHM's system is pins, and doesn't matter at all when inserting into the press, all the frames have pins on them, there are no other options on an MHM.
Steve
We've had roughly 300-350 statics through our doors over the years and only recently have we had frames that are as flat as a properly stretched roller. I don't know how much a racked static will affect registration but I do believe it does more than differing tension levels. I'm not a huge believer in all the screens for a particular job being the same tension, believe it or not. For a while, back when we were just getting back to using newman rollers and still had a ton of statics in production, I was concerned that we would have issues with such huge discrepancies in tension levels between screens but we just never saw that bear any fruit on press. And I also didn't think that a slightly racked static could cause many issues on press since the frame locks would essentially "correct" a racked frame. But over the years I never really figured out what exactly was causing the regi issues on press but it really seemed to be a combination of racked frames and out of calibration press rather than the difference in tension.
I'm not convinced by any means exactly how much each variable within the screen affects registration, I can only say that the registration issues simply dwindled in occurrence the more "squared away" our screens became and the higher tolerance we got our press calibrated. I won't argue with anyone who says they get the best results if all of their screens are the exact same tension level but I would argue that there are probably other factors that have more of an impact and they might be overlooking something. When we were first getting into super high tension printing we still were using a lot of statics and on more than a few occasions we had screens on press with 65 newtons and as low as 15 and never struggled to get and maintain registration. Looking back, I think we saw the largest decrease in setup times when we calibrated the press for the 1st time. Put a properly stretched roller on a finely tuned press and you'll likely never have significant regi issues that can't be fixed with one or two test prints.
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who wants to teach a class on proper newman stretching?
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There are some good videos by George on the Stretch Device site last I knew
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I stretched a million of them and can do it well, just prefer not to. 8)
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who wants to teach a class on proper newman stretching?
George and I share the same zip code, could go on tour as the stretch masters of the universe..
why bother when statics are so easy
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I stretched a million of them and can do it well, just prefer not to. 8)
That's about where I am. Just more all around that has to go into them from building them, maintaining them, the tape and potential for gunk under protection tape and the frames, honestly take longer to make sure are perfectly clean. Think I'm done with them. Rollers, good solid statics with S mesh, we still get a ton of work done so if you go into managing time, and the rollers have the extra babying factor, we would actually be ahead without them. I could see if we didn't have a good source for restretches and new statics, but Spot Color Supply has really put a solid stamp on what they do over there. To each their own.
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I went all static about 2 years ago. Never regretted it. You just have to make sure you get quality static frames. There is a lot of junk out there.
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Funny to see this. We're just now transitioning the other way. I've had such trouble keeping statics with any good tension. I've gotten so fed up that we've been buying used newmans and slowly converting over. I see us running a mix between rollers, shurlocs, and statics, but my current mindset is that if I can phase out statics I'm interested in doing so. we'll see....
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Funny to see this. We're just now transitioning the other way. I've had such trouble keeping statics with any good tension. I've gotten so fed up that we've been buying used newmans and slowly converting over. I see us running a mix between rollers, shurlocs, and statics, but my current mindset is that if I can phase out statics I'm interested in doing so. we'll see....
in the next month i'm gonna be offloading around 100-200 23x31 older m3s...if you're interested!
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Funny to see this. We're just now transitioning the other way. I've had such trouble keeping statics with any good tension. I've gotten so fed up that we've been buying used newmans and slowly converting over. I see us running a mix between rollers, shurlocs, and statics, but my current mindset is that if I can phase out statics I'm interested in doing so. we'll see....
in the next month i'm gonna be offloading around 100-200 23x31 older m3s...if you're interested!
No kidding. What's the reason? same one? going to statics?
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So what are you guys seeing from statics tension wise?
What do they come in the shop at, what do the settle at?
Maybe I was getting sh*t screens before... Im surprised so many people use the statics.
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So what are you guys seeing from statics tension wise?
What do they come in the shop at, what do the settle at?
Maybe I was getting sh*t screens before... Im surprised so many people use the statics.
150-S comes in at 28N and after 1000 impressions is at 26N
Same for our 225-S they loose around 2N after 1000 prints.
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Are they straight from Mirukami?
Who makes em?
Cost?
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http://www.rivercitygraphicsupply.com/ (http://www.rivercitygraphicsupply.com/) for screens stretched by Murikami
Or
Spotcolorsupply.com for Re stretches with Murikami mesh or complete statics stretched by them in house.
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Are they straight from Mirukami?
Who makes em?
Cost?
The frames are old frames we ordered in Thailand years ago, but the stretching was all done by Murakami. Cost around $25-$35 depending on the mesh count.Please keep in mind we are located in Japan but I`m sure Murakami in the States will do an equally good job.
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Funny to see this. We're just now transitioning the other way. I've had such trouble keeping statics with any good tension. I've gotten so fed up that we've been buying used newmans and slowly converting over. I see us running a mix between rollers, shurlocs, and statics, but my current mindset is that if I can phase out statics I'm interested in doing so. we'll see....
This is the reason we started buying newmans. We went through 4 different local suppliers and all of them ended up like trampolines within a couple of months, so I lots faith in statics till we tried some re-meshing through Spot Color Supply using the Murikami S mesh. They are awesome. Even SPC's standard saati mesh, 305's and 280's keep nice and tight and hold up really good. They have a great technique for sure.
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The mesh we use makes a huge difference in retaining tension. Many other brands use mesh that simply continues to lose tension, some quicker than others. Smartmesh from Murakami simply holds onto tension longer. I go into so many shops where the Newmans never get retensioned. That's a great feature, but Smartmesh has made some great improvements in retained tensions. My show screens are 4 years old and still hold 22n on the 225s and we stretched them to 26n to begin with. Then there are CTS systems. Our statics stay flat and fit much easier into a CTS system. Then there is sweet spot. On our frames stretched here the mesh orientation is square to the frame, all threads as straight as possible. With a Newman as you get to the corners the openings don't stay square and may cause moire approaching the corners. Then there is S Mesh on Newmans. On Newmans I recommend Shurloc panels since the mesh rests on the plastic capture strip. But Statics don't have sharp channels, or the ends of the rollers which can have a sharp corner that can wear on the mesh or pop it. Any of our dealers can order Frames from us and some have in house re-stretching in place.
Al
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Hey Guys
I am new to S type mesh and am an old roller frame guy (don't mind giving them TLC/ no employees) that still loves statics for some things.
For those stretching S-type, what is the most tension you can get? When my meter gets to about 18, they will pop.
Thanks
Jack
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I can get it to 20N before tightening bolt, after 24~26N.
Don't push your mesh, but pinch it when you do your corner softening. The frame can scratch your mesh. I use to tear my 305/30 (thinner than S-mesh) just by pushing the mesh down. Those mesh were like tissue thin.
Also you can increase your corner softening alot then reduce it gradually to find your sweet spot.
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For Newmans I recommend trying the Shurloc Panes with Murakami S Mesh. The mesh rests on a plastic strip. Any dents or nicks in the channel of a retentionable can prevent getting up to the mid 20's. Murakami Smartmesh retains tension well. If you want to stretch them yourself on retensionable screens here are a few tricks:
The ends of the rollers can have a sharp corner on some frame types. File and sand round and smooth, or soften the corner enough that this corner can't cut the mesh. Secondly I have found it helpful to wrap 1/2" masking tape around the inside edge to thicken this edge as well as provide some shock absorption in handling.
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I agree w/Alan. Sooooo many Neuman (or other reten) shops never retension. Dare say most don't. Kind of defeats the purpose.
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I agree w/Alan. Sooooo many Neuman (or other reten) shops never retension. Dare say most don't. Kind of defeats the purpose.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^!