TSB
screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: Sea Monkey on March 31, 2016, 09:26:12 AM
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Good morning TSBers,
I have an opportunity to buy this auto press but would like some input on the price. I have always used a manual (ready to upgrade) so my knowledge on autos is limited. I feel that I should make a counter-offer but am clueless as to what would be reasonable.
This press is perfect for me, main reason being that it is the only one that will squezze into my small space. It also looks and runs great -smooth and quiet. I got to 'kick the tires' on it earlier this week.
Here's what I can tell you apout it.
It is a 2008 model Anatol Horizon Mini.
It has 58,000 on the print count.
It has been refurbished (basically for air leaks and wiring) and is in excellent shape but needs 2 'tubes' in the flash.
It is a 5color/6 station press.
I was told that the seller got it for a steal at around 5K but I don't think he knows that I know that. He did put some time/money in to it.
It runs very quiet and very smooth.
t's being offered to me for $14K. Brand new it is around $24K.
I know/knew 2 of the previous owners and have their unbiased (don't care if I buy or not) opinions and they have nothing bad to say about it.
I've been looking at these for over a year now and happened across this opportunity to buy local so no crating, shipping, etc. It's not listed for sale anywhere, just offered to me because the seller was looking for a bigger press and he got word that I was looking for an auto with a small footprint.
What do you think? What would be your counter-offer if it were you wanting the press? Thank you for you help!
here are links to short vids of it running,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL6mXL_PGJU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL6mXL_PGJU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPdaJ-2v2AA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPdaJ-2v2AA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0AS4UuZRXg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0AS4UuZRXg)
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A fair price would be around $8K. A 5 color press just does not have enough print heads. You would have a hard time reselling because of this. A good price would be around $6500.
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I bought a used Horizon Mini last year. I have not had any problems with it, but the previous owner did have some issues that were fixed before I bought it. Compared to a larger auto it is tight working around the print heads, loading ink, registering jobs, cleanup. That part is a little frustrating. You don't want one with the digital display which that one does not have. There are lots of complaint with software crashing on their newer fancier control systems. The price seems maybe 2-3k too high to me, but it is very clean looking.
The only thing I don't see is a flash, which I have two of btw and would be willing to sell one :). You should mention it doesn't have an anatol flash and offer 10-11. you will definitely want a real flash that can be paired to the machine. If you buy it and ever have problems there are several people on the forums here who have that machine or one similar who could help answer questions.
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I bought a used Horizon Mini last year. I have not had any problems with it, but the previous owner did have some issues that were fixed before I bought it. Compared to a larger auto it is tight working around the print heads, loading ink, registering jobs, cleanup. That part is a little frustrating. You don't want one with the digital display which that one does not have. There are lots of complaint with software crashing on their newer fancier control systems. The price seems maybe 2-3k too high to me, but it is very clean looking.
The only thing I don't see is a flash, which I have two of btw and would be willing to sell one :). You should mention it doesn't have an anatol flash and offer 10-11. you will definitely want a real flash that can be paired to the machine. If you buy it and ever have problems there are several people on the forums here who have that machine or one similar who could help answer questions.
Thanks for the info. It does have a flash, I have video focusing on it -last video of the ones attached to my original post. I can see how it would be tighter/more difficult to get to for loading ink, registering etc..makes sense.
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You can get a better deal than that if you shop it. I would much rather have a late 90's Gauntlet 6 color for less money and it's a better press.
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You can get a better deal than that if you shop it. I would much rather have a late 90's Gauntlet 6 color for less money and it's a better press.
Except that a press sized for limited available space was mentioned as a major factor
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Being maybe the only Anatol press defender on here, I have a 7/8 Horizon mini bought brand new and really love the press and I bought it because same as you it would fit my space perfect, plus there was no big change over from my manual setup... I don't know what type screens you are using now but if it's 20x24 you might have to get a larger exposure unit and screen's for a full size press where the Anatol mini work's great with 20x24 and you can even get 20x28 screens for lager prints if you need to. Now the M&R cat's on here are going to tell you all about M&R before it's all over LOL ;D, and if you got the room for a full size press then M&R press's are all over the used market and not a bad investment IHMO. Far as price I would try 8K to 10K, but it is what the seller wants and willing to part with it in the end no matter what any of us say here, good luck.
darryl
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I'm not an Anatol basher by any means, and I know that their support has improved, but I would be a little worried about just how robust a press could be that needed a refurb after only 58,000 shirts. Do the math. Even at only 200 shirts an hour, that's only 290 hours, which is 36 days!
Not surprised that it looks clean.
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my fastest run so far (Horizon Mini) was 350 per hour, black WB ink on white shirt. Could have went faster but that was plenty quick for me.
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they aren't bad presses, but the older gauntlets were built like tanks.
for the space aspect it might be the best option for the money.
I would see if you can talk them down a bit. 50% off an 8 year old press from a company that seems to constantly be in a state of turnover seems steep.
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There's not much that can go wrong with them. Keep a couple of proxy swithces on hand.
Smaller print size, tight fit for carding ink, etc. But at least you can get Sur-loc ez frames in 20x28 now.
If it's all you can fit, including a 7/8 mini horizon, then I'd really try get it for $10K. 7/8's go for $14/15K. And if the seller really did get it for $5K, $10 would be way more than him getting his money back on it. Also, on the flash it may not just be the bulbs, it could be the ballasts. Which isn't that big of a deal. Swap the bulbs and see if the others work in there.
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We have 2 horizons. Couple year old 10c with half a mill on it, new 6c in january.Electric heads 10c, air 6c as it was for 1 or 2 color jobs.
Had a titan first.
Their service has improved considerably.
Prox switches if the black ones i think are the replacements for the green ones that where the issue a few years back. If that color, biggest issue solved.
They do skype for servie help, and generally have parts.
So on their presses, we have not been unhappy.
But 14k is high. Way high
10k with flash is fairish. 8k is a deal imho.
Limited heads , but fits in limited space.
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$8k at the most with flash. Small print size, limited prints space. The videos do not show it printing, you can make a worn out press run like a top dry cycling. Does it hold reg, tight center bearing? Not surprised about the air leaks, they tend to start popping air lines at 5-6 years. Could it have more prints and someone changed the computer out being a 2008 with only 58k? I would look for a press that does not need as much service, support and parts since thats one of their weak areas. It appears to have quick release pallets which the mounts tend to come loose over time causing reg problems and not compatible with other presses. Flash bulbs could be several things like Shananrchy mentioned or sockets.
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Binkspot if I'm not mistaken you sold or worked on Anatol right or I could be totally wrong, but anyway I have the quick release pallets and I never in the pass eight years had a reggie problem or them getting loose, but I think understand what your thinking being most of these press's are all air and they do tend to bang a little more. I also agree with you on those air lines popping, had to replace some myself after about six years, but still to me a very solid press and they have always been johnny on the spot when ever I needed service.
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I'm not an Anatol basher by any means, and I know that their support has improved, but I would be a little worried about just how robust a press could be that needed a refurb after only 58,000 shirts. Do the math. Even at only 200 shirts an hour, that's only 290 hours, which is 36 days!
Not surprised that it looks clean.
Didin't think of it that way BUT -someone who knows some of the history of this press (not the seller) says the press was possibly damaged maliciously by someone who was buying it but couldn't make the payments on it and it was repossessed. I think he said some of the wires were cut, as opposed to just damaged from wear or age.
Thaks for your input!
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$8k at the most with flash. Small print size, limited prints space. The videos do not show it printing, you can make a worn out press run like a top dry cycling. Does it hold reg, tight center bearing? Not surprised about the air leaks, they tend to start popping air lines at 5-6 years. Could it have more prints and someone changed the computer out being a 2008 with only 58k? I would look for a press that does not need as much service, support and parts since thats one of their weak areas. It appears to have quick release pallets which the mounts tend to come loose over time causing reg problems and not compatible with other presses. Flash bulbs could be several things like Shananrchy mentioned or sockets.
Yeah, didn't get to see it printing. I know the seller uses it on multi color jobs so I can only assume that it holds reg at least for some time. It does have quick release pallets. About it being a 2008 with only 58K prints on it -the majority of those came from one person who owned it but he died. Then the press changed hands a few times and also sat in storage for a good while. I know one of the owners (after the guy who died) didn't use it much at all, didn't have a lot of work. And it's this owner who had the press 'taken' from him and rumour has it that this guy very likely inflicted some malicious damage on the press (cut wires, etc) before it was taken from him. Thank you for the input and price advice!
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Thanks for all the input, really helpful for someone that's never purchased (or owned) an auto press. I've been using a manual that I bought new 2 1/2 years ago but I have WAY too much work now to stay with that.
Please keep the info coming! I think I have a good ballpark idea for a counter offer but I'm really enjoying everyone's opinions and stories about the Horizon Mini, even the negative aspects are good to file away in the 'good to know' folder in the back of my head.
Thanks again!!!!
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rumour has it that this guy very likely inflicted some malicious damage on the press (cut wires, etc) before it was taken from him.
Do yourself a huge favor. PAY a tech to check the price out before you buy it. Make sure there is not any major damage done to this press that you would not be able to detect yourself.
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How much productivity will be lost while you "haggle" over the price?....If it is close enough to your idea of value go for it.....Get it running and you may gain enough in short order to make up for any extra you pay if you wait it out?.....
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Best thing about this deal is your going in eye's wide open, but there is always something your going to miss when buying any used product, that might later be a issue to you but was never an issue to the previous owner. Owning one of these press's myself feel free to hit me up with any question's you might have, can't say I know everything but I do know a little ;)
darryl
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You'd be very surprised at what people will do to a press when they know it's not their's any longer. I recently saw some mild sabotage done to a used RPM that there is no way the things that were done had been done by accident. You don't go messing around with the safety bar electronics on the motherboard for no reason. I've also heard horror stories from a few old time equipment guys and it happens more often when a machine is getting repo'd. The longer I'm on this earth the more I realize that there are some truly awful people roaming around. I just hope by the time I'm a ripe old man that my heart hasn't completely gone dark.
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How much productivity will be lost while you "haggle" over the price?....If it is close enough to your idea of value go for it.....Get it running and you may gain enough in short order to make up for any extra you pay if you wait it out?.....
Won't be losing any productivity, everything is under control in that manner. The thing I don't want to lose is money by mistaking my idea of value for the real value. Plus I don't want to borrow any more $$ than I have to, just want to make sure I get a fair deal.
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Best thing about this deal is your going in eye's wide open, but there is always something your going to miss when buying any used product, that might later be a issue to you but was never an issue to the previous owner. Owning one of these press's myself feel free to hit me up with any question's you might have, can't say I know everything but I do know a little ;)
darryl
Thanks Darryl -if everything works out, glad to know I can turn to you for questions. And yes, every time I've bought anything used I've always ended up saying, "huh, didn't see that before I bought it!"
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Yes I do service them. The presses I have come across with the quick release pallets have well over 1m imprints in production shops. You can adjust them to a point, then you can add a 0.002" shim under them to take up the slack. Just pointing out they would not be my choice of pallets. Have switched some over to slide type.
As far as damaging a press on purpose, called out for index won't home on a press. Tried to trouble shoot over phone but ended up going to the shop. Guy was fired the day before, they didn't get his keys. Turned out he came back that night and cut a bunch of wires on the press, all three of their 6 head emb machines, dryer, exposure unit and flash. Got it all on camera. Was there all day getting the press running.
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I would think in a situation like that the guy would be arrested and have to pay all the damages plus loss production time.
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I agree, but someone that stupid probably does not have 2 nickels to rub together.
Maybe he can gain some new 'friends' in the lockup. ;)
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Thanks for all the help folks! I think if I present some snippets/quotes from this thread to the seller I may be able to get the press for what it's actually worth. So sounds like, on the average. 8K is a decent price with 10K being somewhat fair but maybe a little on the high side.
I've also been doing some heavy search on the web for used Anatol Horizon Minis and haven't sen any 5c/6s models for anywhere near 14K, except for one that came with a large compressor and chiller and another that came with a dryer. 14K is more along the priceline for 6/6 or even 7/8, depending on the condition.
Any more input is most definietly welcomed, encouraged, etc., etc...
Huge thanks to everyone so far!!
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Probably best not to go in with TSB snippets at first.
Let them know - YOU yourself, are the knowledgeable one, researched, knowing fair price.
And then, if you need quotes, it is backup ammo research.
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Probably best not to go in with TSB snippets at first.
Let them know - YOU yourself, are the knowledgeable one, researched, knowing fair price.
And then, if you need quotes, it is backup ammo research.
Good idea, thanks. I have compiled a list of 'comps' on this make/model and similar ones like the Anatol Horizon full size from different used equipment sites that I will provide for negotiating the price since the ball is in my court now and I need to make an offer but I am very glad to have this info from TSB as backup. I will use it with good timing and only if necessary. Regarding the comps from the used equipment sites -the seller's asking price for the press I've posted here is more along the lines of the pricing for the full size models with 6-8 color capability.