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screen printing => Separations => Topic started by: Prosperi-Tees on October 16, 2011, 04:16:40 PM
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Keep in mind I only have 158 and 230 mesh. The 230 mesh is kinda soft though, the 158s are tight.
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if you're asking based on mesh and 230 being tops, it could be done, but not as well as with 305. Could be bad news if the 230 is soft though.
Was that the question?
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I guess the question would be what dpi on what mesh?
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The perfect situation LPI X 4.5 = Mesh you should use (or higher)
"To be safe" I would print the orange under the black on the print. Do the orange with 156 and the black at 45 LPI on your brand new tight 230 mesh screen.
If the client is ok with larger dots (most are not) you can do the same thing but do the black on a 158 at 35 LPI (I never go under 40 LPI and I have done them on 156 mess and even on 123 when I was in a bind. (have to know your emultion, exposure unit and times to make it work.)
Hope this helps.
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That does help, thanks
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LPI to screen mesh is not really part of seping so I didn't know what you were looking for.
Unless the job is due in the morning, don't you have a supplier you can buy 2 280-305 mesh screens from in the morning? They always come in handy for halftones.
I always try to do what I need to to make the job look right vs. trying to shoehorn something to make it fit. If no suppliers in your town, well, guess then you have to make do.
I only use my 156s for underbase and spot colors.
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I did 156 for the orange and 230 for the black, the black was a little overpowering but the print looks better than what the guy had from a printer thats been in business for 10+ years so I am happy but you are right I wish I had some higher mesh screens. This was done without a RIP, I use Advanced Artist Simple Seps.
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I'll have to check out the Advanced Artist site.
In the meantime, (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p221/screenxpress/weneedpics_larger.gif)
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I did 156 for the orange and 230 for the black, the black was a little overpowering. . .
Black halftones are often overpowering. It is usually a good idea to pull them back in the artwork. The amount you need to pull back depends on a lot of variables in your shop, but a little experimentation should allow you to dial it in. I usually pull back about 15% on my shadings and gradients containing black.
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Looks better in person, crappy cell pic but like was said I should have pulled back on the black.
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I know it looks darker than you wanted, but will the custy be okay with the black under the bucket where it was gray in the top image? Or is it just a really dark gray?
Are they all printed now?
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Yeah it actually does look dark gray in person, the pic shows up to dark. The customers print before was just a halftone black, I asked if they wanted to add the gray and they said no the black would be fine.
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k, I would have probably done that anyway - as a halftone.
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Hey Pro not bad..I know everyone was saying higher mesh 305,s, but you could have hit that dead on with the 230 screens...I,m thinking you pulled your gradients for your black to high and covered the orange to much...Oh the black at the bottom of that bucket you should have gave it a 25% fill of the black. I,m no expert here just telling what I would have done and I like learning from these cats as much as the next guy. Your print looks great and if your like me your allways looking to get better.
Darryl
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I actually went thru 4 different screens until I settled on this print. I am very picky and my wife gets on me about that but I tell her thats what is gonna set us apart. We have to better than the print that walks thru the door from the "other" printer down the road and I will burn thru as many screens and films as it takes until I get it right. I have only been doing this for about 2 years and am self taught from reading, you tube videos, forums and trial and error and we always look for ways to get better. And I always look to you guys for input. Thanks
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I think we are all our own worst critics. ;)
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Yeah I know I am. I just want things to look good and not look amatuerish. lol
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Oh, check your email
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Sometimes we overthink our projects, when it is very simple to do and let it go, I know I do this all the time until I get it to point where I can't sep it right.
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Hey Pro not bad..I know everyone was saying higher mesh 305,s, but you could have hit that dead on with the 230 screens...I,m thinking you pulled your gradients for your black to high and covered the orange to much...Oh the black at the bottom of that bucket you should have gave it a 25% fill of the black. I,m no expert here just telling what I would have done and I like learning from these cats as much as the next guy. Your print looks great and if your like me your allways looking to get better.
Darryl
Like 3deep said, always lighten your gradients on "spot color" stuff like this. On the press you can always do a double hit if it is too light. You can't do anything if it is too dark.
Another thing to watch out for with Half tones is too hard of a flood or too soft of a print stroke. What this does is puts ink under the screen filling your half tones. You have to clean the back of the screen before you can print more. I think that is what happened to your print a little. Go back out the press and clean the back of the black screen then give it a soft flood and one hard print. I bet it prints alot better. Buy a rip or use the free ones out there. I use Ghost script and it does everything I need. (its free and works great with Illustrator.)
I hope this helps.
Jon
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If printing the black halftone over top, I would try this. I have 5% in the highlight area. (depending on how well you hold small dots), you might adjust that. Some hold smaller and some need it even larger. I would use 50lpi halftone on the 230 mesh. I opened up the shadow tone to be around 70-80% in the darkest range. It can fill in as it is to get solid. Opening the gradation up this far allows for the shadow tones to print decent. Like maybe after printing, the shadow would be near 100% solid....but at least you have that mid tone much more open and can see a good transition form light to dark.
I don't really want to put halftone in the lightest area, but based on your print, you are not holding that lighter area as much as needed so I would add more dot %, You seem to have it fading off to nothing. This increases your chances for a smoother looking halftone transition (but does add a tone to what would normally be 0%
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Appreciate all the input. This is actually my very first time having to do halftones in the past 18 months, most of the stuff I do is real basic spot color but I am liking the education on how to properly print gradients. I am gonna look into Ghostrip, I heard it is a little harder to get the hang of than some of the other paid for RIPs on the market.
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Appreciate all the input. This is actually my very first time having to do halftones in the past 18 months, most of the stuff I do is real basic spot color but I am liking the education on how to properly print gradients. I am gonna look into Ghostrip, I heard it is a little harder to get the hang of than some of the other paid for RIPs on the market.
Since time is money and it is going to take some significant time for you to learn Ghostrip your better off paying for a Rip. In 15 minutes You could have Accurip installed and be already printing films. You need to look at cost vs reward. Time is money. You need to look at everything that you mess with in your shop is costing you money until you are pulling shirts off the pallets and putting them in a box. 100.00 per hour for shop time at 4 hours of screwing with Ghostrip pays for Accurip right off the bat.
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Appreciate all the input. This is actually my very first time having to do halftones in the past 18 months, most of the stuff I do is real basic spot color but I am liking the education on how to properly print gradients. I am gonna look into Ghostrip, I heard it is a little harder to get the hang of than some of the other paid for RIPs on the market.
Since time is money and it is going to take some significant time for you to learn Ghostrip your better off paying for a Rip. In 15 minutes You could have Accurip installed and be already printing films. You need to look at cost vs reward. Time is money. You need to look at everything that you mess with in your shop is costing you money until you are pulling shirts off the pallets and putting them in a box. 100.00 per hour for shop time at 4 hours of screwing with Ghostrip pays for Accurip right off the bat.
I agree about time and money. There are a lot better Rips than Ghost Script. It’s Just what I started with and It does a really good job. If your just starting out I wouldn’t try to do the highest LPI like many on here. I did a lot of great work at 40 - 45 LPI. It’s easier to wash out and control on a manual press as a beginner. Keep playing with it and you will get it.
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Ghostscript with Ghostview takes all of about 10 minutes to get setup and working. And this is if you are taking breaks to watch some TV while setting it up.
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The print looks good! You have the right idea and with Dan's info you should be able to nail it next time. Halftones, like anything else, require a little bit of practice and you are on the right path. Next step is to measure what's the smallest dot you can hols and adjusting the artwork for it. Also, got few higher mesh screens (230, 280, 305). They will help keeping the smaller dots.
As far as RIP, FilmMaker DTP Lite Epson 1100 Edition is only $195. I would think long and hard about getting it.
While Ghostscript does work and produces very good results, Film Maker is so much easier and it has a boatload of features.
It is hard to understand until you use it, but just as everybody else says, RIP is the way to go. At $195 FM is an AWESOME deal! It is the best RIP of the several I tested and you can get into it for very little money . . .
pierre
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230 would be fine here, if we wanted to go crazy, 2 - 230 for the blend, and a 156 for the solid black. As others said and Dan illustrated, pull the halftones back. You can do the halftoning in PS without the need for a RIP, but really, get a RIP, install it and go. It's just another piece of equipment after all, and one that produces benefits right away. My 2 cents anyway...
Steve
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Dan something I always wanted to discuss is the issue of fading from nothing to something. If a printer such as myself can hold a 5% but nothing below there is always that hard edge to contend with. How does other printers deal with this? Do they just leave it as is or is there a trick to smoothly go from 0% to 5% without to much of an edge?
Here is a really crazy thought.
Lets say I can only hold the 5% dot. and my last line of halftones is 55 dots in an inch. Now instead of stopping there why not have the next line have only 50 dots in an inch, then 45 then 40 and so on. I wonder how that would look on a print? It would need to stop around 30 or so of course no point in having dots overly spaced out.
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I always wanted to discuss is the issue of fading from nothing to something. If a printer such as myself can hold a 5% but nothing below there is always that hard edge to contend with. How does other printers deal with this? Do they just leave it as is or is there a trick to smoothly go from 0% to 5% without to much of an edge?[/quote]
PRINT LIGHT OVER TOP OF DARK INK:
One work around that does well if you have the colors, is to print the black (under the Orange). In this case, you don't need to adjust the black (as much as you would if it were printing on top but you still nee dot adjust that black a little so that you don't hey too much solid coverage.
You also need to open up the orange (just a bit) so that the black can actually mix a tad bit with the orange and you're able to show a good (dark) color transition. This is a bit more difficult to judge before hand. Here, you are somewhat guessing as to how much the black will show through. TIP, very translucent inks will work better for this.
In this case, I would also print this earlier in the run. If I have 4 colors and 2 are Orange and Black, (and I am doing this technique, I would print the black first...then orange...so that the other two run over top and help mix the black into the Orange. The result can be fantastic as you will have that nice smooth blend,,.,and not have much if any actual dot showing.
Here is a really crazy thought. Lets say I can only hold the 5% dot. and my last line of halftones is 55 dots in an inch. Now instead of stopping there why not have the next line have only 50 dots in an inch, then 45 then 40 and so on. I wonder how that would look on a print? It would need to stop around 30 or so of course no point in having dots overly spaced out.
I see where you are headed, but a cog in the wheel is that the dot size of a 1% in a 35lpi is very close in size to the dot size of a 2% in the next jump up such as a 2% in a 40 lpi So I don't foresee an easy or smooth drop off or fade.
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Lets say I can only hold the 5% dot. and my last line of halftones is 55 dots in an inch. Now instead of stopping there why not have the next line have only 50 dots in an inch, then 45 then 40 and so on. I wonder how that would look on a print? It would need to stop around 30 or so of course no point in having dots overly spaced out.
this is actually dealt with quite nicely in the Wasatch RIP. You tell it what the smallest dot is you can hold, and anything lower than it they just reduce the number of dots.
I have been told by Cadlink that this will be available in the Film Maker soon. My understanding is that the programing is done and that they are working on the interface.
Here's an image from Wasatch:
(http://www.wasatch.com/images/hybridScale.png)
and the interface:
(http://www.wasatch.com/images/hybridSettings.png)
and the actual description page:
http://www.wasatch.com/rosetteHybrid.html (http://www.wasatch.com/rosetteHybrid.html)
pierre
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Pierre awesome glad some one understood where I was going with that. And I did wonder if FM had something available since it is what I use.
I see where you are headed, but a cog in the wheel is that the dot size of a 1% in a 35lpi is very close in size to the dot size of a 2% in the next jump up such as a 2% in a 40 lpi So I don't foresee an easy or smooth drop off or fade.
Dan you missed my point, the dots would have to stop at 5% just the line count would have to diminish each line like Pierre posted above.
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Pierre awesome glad some one understood where I was going with that. And I did wonder if FM had something available since it is what I use.
I see where you are headed, but a cog in the wheel is that the dot size of a 1% in a 35lpi is very close in size to the dot size of a 2% in the next jump up such as a 2% in a 40 lpi So I don't foresee an easy or smooth drop off or fade.
Dan you missed my point, the dots would have to stop at 5% just the line count would have to diminish each line like Pierre posted above.
Maybe I am still not seeing "your point". What i read you saying, it not quite what Pierre posted. It seems to be half pertaining to what he posted. The part about having the smallest dot be 5% is understandable (you and Pierre on the the same page). Thats what I described in my image example....and thus your next post with the question but I was referring to a specific (or only one) line screen. Pierre's image that he posted shows only tontal compression as far as I can see. Basically, that is what i did manually in the example I posted. In Pierre's example, it does not have anything that I see (that shows two different sized line counts) like 45 and 55. In the 2nd part of your post where I am getting lost on your desire or intent is that It looks like you are referring to (combining multiple line counts in the same screen (in the same highlight area).
Pierre refers to the hybrid printing of two or more dots sizes) (but those aren't really all (5% tints unless the spread our further (randomly) to simulate a 5 % tone. Lets say that all multiple line counts are 5% and no less.
If you are at a point where you can hold down to a 5% (tint), in a given line screen, then (any line screen less than 55) would be larger than a 5%.
Lets say 5% in a 55lpi is (just tossing out a number), 100 microns wide and is the smallest dot you can hold.
The next row of dots would be 50lpi at 5% becomes 110 microns.
and the next row would be 45lpi at 5% becomes 120 microns.
and the next row would be 40lpi at 5% becomes 130 microns.
The fact that the4se dots get bigger (and are forming a line pattern still), would indicate that when combined with the 5% in your 55lpi, you are no looking at a 55 "tint" but more like a 7 or 10% tint.
So the lower you take the line count, the bigger the dot (but still represent a 5% tint).
If this is not what your were referring to then I am really out in left field.
Mark Coudray did have an article on this but he was referring to a hybrid of Stochastic (scatter dot) below 5% and traditional dots above 5%.
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Does FilmMaker work with Canon Printers? I think I read they only work with Epsons?
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Does FilmMaker work with Canon Printers? I think I read they only work with Epsons?
from Cadlink for the $395 version:
Supports the following printers: Epson 1100, 1400, 1410, 1520, 1800, 1900, 2200, 2400, 2880, 3000, 3800, 3880,Canon LP17, 650, 655
pierre
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Dan your discussion makes my head hurt!
All I am trying to say is if you can only hold a certain size dot lets forget percentages just a very specific certain size dot. At some point when you develop a screen all the dots below that size will not develop or actually some might come through looking really splotchy, I see this when I print something like a grey scaled photo.
Look at the image below I used a dot and spread it to 50 dot in an inch. Lets call those dots 5% black. The next line is only 48 dots. Then the next is 46 etc. What i would find cool is a software that can stop shrinking dots at a certain size and just maintain that certain size till it fades out to nothing on the line count.
Does this make sense?
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That drawing reminds me of the bottom of a flapper dress or maybe I watch too much Boardwalk Empire.
This is one thing I have never grasped about RIPS. If I set it to "X" lpi, then the dots should go no smaller than that specific size, thene they should be spaced to give the effect of a smaller dot. Sort of like spreading your peas out on your plate makes it look like you ate more. ;)
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That drawing reminds me of the bottom of a flapper dress or maybe I watch too much Boardwalk Empire.
This is one thing I have never grasped about RIPS. If I set it to "X" lpi, then the dots should go no smaller than that specific size, thene they should be spaced to give the effect of a smaller dot. Sort of like spreading your peas out on your plate makes it look like you ate more. ;)
Ummm, the dots represent a percentage of black, so at any LPI, they get smaller only if the area of the image is lighter. The spacing remains the same, but the dots themselves get smaller. At higher percentages, over 50% the dots get so large that they start to overlap, but THE SPACING IS THE SAME (sorry, not yelling, just emphasizing...)
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all that for a dot!!! LOL
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Ghostscript with Ghostview takes all of about 10 minutes to get setup and working. And this is if you are taking breaks to watch some TV while setting it up.
With the right set of instructions, I agree. And I have such a set 1-2-3.
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Dan your discussion makes my head hurt!
All I am trying to say is if you can only hold a certain size dot lets forget percentages just a very specific certain size dot. At some point when you develop a screen all the dots below that size will not develop or actually some might come through looking really splotchy, I see this when I print something like a grey scaled photo.
Look at the image below I used a dot and spread it to 50 dot in an inch. Lets call those dots 5% black. The next line is only 48 dots. Then the next is 46 etc. What i would find cool is a software that can stop shrinking dots at a certain size and just maintain that certain size till it fades out to nothing on the line count.
Does this make sense?
well now, that is a horse of a different color. I'll have to sleep on this one. (rough day). Tax extension deadline today. (Phew!) Did I ever tell ya I hate Taxes?
What I see so far from the image is interesting. One one side, it works. On another side, it's questionable and requires more thought. I like it though, It's got a bit of a Wooshis Wong Chinese graphic artist feel to it.
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How about this graphic? A local pastor called me and said a printer burned him for his money and was wanting to know if I can print them. Looks out of my current ballpark but would like to hear what you guys think.
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If this can be reduced to fit within your max print size then it's 6 colors and you can do this.
1 Base white
2 Teal
3 Green
4 Purple
5 Blue
6 Top white
If you can hold 50lpi on 300 mesh, then you can print this.
You can also do it in 45lpi on 230 mesh but the above would be better.
if they don't want to reduce it, then just job it out to a jumbo printer or an all over printer that can handle it. The thing about the all over printers are that they are much more exp. on the screens and films charges than a normal print. Production is production. So depending on the quantity, they may not even want the all over printing.
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The problem is they need them by Thursday. I have about 4 230 mesh screens and the rest are 180s and 158s. The biggest film I can print is 13x19 unless I do some splicing but I would not be comfortable doing that. I will see if they want to shrink the design but the problem there is they pre sold about 100 of them on that graphic so I dont know if it will work for them.
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As much as you want the money, don't let his problems become your problems.
Tell him to tell his followers that was an artistic presentation and the actual picture will only be 12 x 18.
Ask him when he last got a Whopper that looked like the TV ad.
Just my thoughts.
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I messaged him and said that the graphic would have to be shrunk and it would be a HUGE stretch to get them done. I just feel bad when printers burn people. That being said that is only his side of the story and I understand that as well. You know the worst one about the burgers are Carls Jr and the western bacon cheeseburger. Those are my favorite but it looks like after they make them they sit on them or something lol.
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I messaged him and said that the graphic would have to be shrunk and it would be a HUGE stretch to get them done. I just feel bad when printers burn people. That being said that is only his side of the story and I understand that as well. You know the worst one about the burgers are Carls Jr and the western bacon cheeseburger. Those are my favorite but it looks like after they make them they sit on them or something lol.
Check your email.
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Those are my favorite but it looks like after they make them they sit on them or something lol.
Falling Down - Fast Food debacle HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK332QsfYRc#ws)
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Well I told the customer that it would be impossible to do the shirts in the time frame he needs them. The great thing is even though I could not do this order we set up an appointment for next week to do his future orders so it may work out for both of us.
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Those are my favorite but it looks like after they make them they sit on them or something lol.
Falling Down - Fast Food debacle HD ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK332QsfYRc#ws[/url])
Lol that movie is classic!