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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: shaneds on February 05, 2016, 10:19:01 AM
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I've read hours of past CTS threads and information and I'm looking for any insight from shops that have both CTS and multiple automatics that might help us in our near future purchase - We are looking at either adding in a CTS or a third automatic, if you were to choose one which would you? To explain a little bit of our current set up -
- We average making 60 Frames per day
- 2 Automatics - 14 C Challenger II - running 1 shift half the year and 1.5 shirts (only one machine runs another 8 hours) for the other half of the year.
- Set Up by registration marks, no pre reg currently (we own tri-locks but do not use them)
- Each press has a team of three people (loader, unloader and catcher) when a job is complete they tear down and set up the next job, all hands on deck for making changeover as quick as possible
My thoughts with a new press instead of CTS are -
- You have increased capacity of how many shirts per day can be printed - also a backup if a machine goes down temp
- We can employ one person to constantly set up between machines, when a crew is printing an order on machine 1, a person can set up machine 2. When machine 1 is complete they move to machine 2 and immediately begin printing. What I don't know if one person can keep up with tear down and set up by themselves between three machines (2 always printing), especially on short run jobs (under 150 pcs) In theory you create 2 machines constantly printing with one persons added labor.
Thank you in advance to any information.
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I've read hours of past CTS threads and information and I'm looking for any insight from shops that have both CTS and multiple automatics that might help us in our near future purchase - We are looking at either adding in a CTS or a third automatic, if you were to choose one which would you? To explain a little bit of our current set up -
- We average making 60 Frames per day
- 2 Automatics - 14 C Challenger II - running 1 shift half the year and 1.5 shirts (only one machine runs another 8 hours) for the other half of the year.
- Set Up by registration marks, no pre reg currently (we own tri-locks but do not use them)
- Each press has a team of three people (loader, unloader and catcher) when a job is complete they tear down and set up the next job, all hands on deck for making changeover as quick as possible
My thoughts with a new press instead of CTS are -
- You have increased capacity of how many shirts per day can be printed - also a backup if a machine goes down temp
- We can employ one person to constantly set up between machines, when a crew is printing an order on machine 1, a person can set up machine 2. When machine 1 is complete they move to machine 2 and immediately begin printing. What I don't know if one person can keep up with tear down and set up by themselves between three machines (2 always printing), especially on short run jobs (under 150 pcs) In theory you create 2 machines constantly printing with one persons added labor.
Thank you in advance to any information.
If the Challengers are in good shape and not really old I would strongly suggest CTS. Even with 60 screens a day you will see huge improvements AND you will use the Tri-Loc pallets.
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How long does it take you during job changes? - Tear Down/Set up/Finished test print?
How fast can one guy tear down and set up a job?
How fast do you print your average run?
If one guy can keep up with getting presses ready between job runs, then get the auto.
If not, then look at the time difference between CTS and Tri-loc and manually setting up.
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Without question the CTS investment will be your best choice, screen making time will be drastically reduced as will your set-up times.
You will be able to run more jobs on each existing press with the same team, overhead and I suspect possible elimination of most of the OT/second shift you referenced.
CTS ROI is based primarily on all the things you can't put on a spread sheet.
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Greg, technically you can put anything on a spreadsheet, but quantifying any of them is what's difficult. ;)
CTS leaves the screen guy more time to do something else while screens are being imaged. Since he's not actively lining up films he can work on exposing, rinsing, taping etc. It also removes films from the art department so they can focus on other things that are more profitable.
You have 2 autos, I would say CTS would be your best bet. Why not get more from what you have.
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CTS, after all another auto would cause more stress in the screen department.
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USE the triloc, on the days when we think well save a minute and just shoot the screens without the triloc like on our manuals . I watch the operator fiddling with setting up way longer
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1st, USE THE TRILOC, no matter how experienced your guys are, CTS and triloc are FASTER! No question about it! If I started over again the first thing I would buy would be CTS! Films and I quit!
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Cts saves in ways you can't see right now.
Better acreens, far less (if any) pinholes...
You can chose to stop using registration marks (we did) on most jobs ... makes for much faster setups as you don't have to tape them off.
No more finding a film in the screen room.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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In answer to the speed of 1 person setting up fast enough. You said average job was 150 pieces. That should be no more than 15 minutes press time. Can the person set up in 15 minutes or less? I too vote for the CTS
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1st, USE THE TRILOC, no matter how experienced your guys are, CTS and triloc are FASTER! No question about it! If I started over again the first thing I would buy would be CTS! Films and I quit!
What he says. I would put money on the Triloc and CTS against anyone in the world that they can reg a job faster. Unless you let a moron use the Triloc. Even then with CTS it is fairly moron proof at that point. Yesterday we set up a coulpe of 5 colors and some easy 2 screen white on darks and they only touched one micro on one job. We still use films too and carriers. Once we have the room CTS is coming in.
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DTS for sure.......Running 2 autos on films isn't bad but when your running 3 then 4, yeah dts is the only way to go imo.
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Even with one auto and having plenty of work with a two person shop CTS makes tons of since, it's like having a whole crew working making one monthly payment. I find myself wearing to many hats during the busy season, so if I could set up in 5 minutes vs 10 to 30 minutes and be printing, I could move on to the next job and still deal with customers. Only thing about CTS for a small shop like mine is price, but like I said if we where running job after job not even large jobs 36 pc to 72 pc jobs 6 or more per day I,m buying one.
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I've noticed a couple of newer offerings under 20K, from Lawson and Spyder...
Steve
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At 60 screens per day I'd say you need a 3rd auto and a crew to run it like you need a hole in your head. CTS in your situation by a mile. If you have a 14 color CH2 that is in good shape, I mean fully capable like it was when it was a year old then I would bet money that a good CTS machine, that Challenger and a good crew could come close to handling a 60-screens-per-day-production just by itself with very little need for the 2nd auto and absolutely no need for a 3rd auto. Everyone knows we don't have a CTS machine but during our busiest times we were running one, 8-9 hour shift per day on one auto (in great shape, 10 color with 2 flash units) doing 40 screens per day with 2 images on each screen, using archaic film, modified triloc and a crew of 3 solid guys. So when I see your scenario and from what you've told us I think my numbers are very accurate and my opinion has merit. I'm not saying that every shop should be handling 60 screens per day with one auto but it is very possible to achieve that type of production under good circumstances.
60 screens per day doesn't tell the whole story obviously but I think everyone gets my point...I hope.
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60 screens a day is enough for a CTS! I would definitely go that route.
We actually went CTS at about 25 screens a day (with a much more affordable one than many of the ones out there right now). We upgraded that unit a year ago though. We have plenty of room to grow with our 2 head I-Image-ST now.
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I've noticed a couple of newer offerings under 20K, from Lawson and Spyder...
Steve
I'd like to see some real-world testing and reviews on those. The price difference is so drastic between them and an I-image that it leaves me skeptical.
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I've noticed a couple of newer offerings under 20K, from Lawson and Spyder...
Steve
I have a Lawson you can have for 10K.
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I believe one of the members here, who does award winning work HAD a Lawson and went with an M&R unit. I'm not 100% sure on that, but seems right to me. If you want to hear about a Lawson, I think a shop here in town uses one. They would probably talk to you. Then talk to me, an M&R user. I once heard someone say, "You get what you pay for".
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I believe one of the members here, who does award winning work HAD a Lawson and went with an M&R unit. I'm not 100% sure on that, but seems right to me. If you want to hear about a Lawson, I think a shop here in town uses one. They would probably talk to you. Then talk to me, an M&R user. I once heard someone say, "You get what you pay for".
This.
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I'm going to have to go against the grain here and recommend another press BUT this depends largely on your work load. We run 4 presses and we are currently still on film. We are at the point now where it is time to switch but we can easily supply all our presses with quality preregistered screens while still on film. No CTS out there would allow us to do as much as we do with only two presses but it would allow us to do more with the same four presses we currently run.
So CTS would allow you to do more with the two presses you currently have but not as much as three for nearly the same up front cost but your labor cost will increase due to more capacity.
Hope this helps.
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Alan, are your 3 solid guys also making screens, cleaning up or are only on the carousel?
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I'm going to have to go against the grain here and recommend another press BUT this depends largely on your work load. We run 4 presses and we are currently still on film. We are at the point now where it is time to switch but we can easily supply all our presses with quality preregistered screens while still on film. No CTS out there would allow us to do as much as we do with only two presses but it would allow us to do more with the same four presses we currently run.
So CTS would allow you to do more with the two presses you currently have but not as much as three for nearly the same up front cost but your labor cost will increase due to more capacity.
Hope this helps.
I can say that EVERY CTS owner I know has made the same "Good Enough" statement regarding the impact a CTS would make on their shop, BEFORE they buy one.
You simply do not understand the 'other' workflow benefits until you start, kind of like the 'king' in this cartoon. Many of us are absolute rulers in our 'kingdoms' and are no where near as smart as we think we are. ;D
How do I know this: been there, done that, still kinda stupid!
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The discussion in the past always went to ROI, which IMO scared many people. You can't afford it if you don't do 50 screens a day they said. You don't need one if you don't have 2-3 auto's they said. There is no way your shop can benefit from it they said. Ugh.....fear mongering
Any shop would benefit from one in some way and there is no calculator that is going to tell you the full story of what a CTS will do for your shop. If you've got the money then do it and stop thinking about it, thank us all later.
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I would like to hear from someone who bought CTS and then wished they didn't, does that guy exist?
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I would like to hear from someone who bought CTS and then wished they didn't, does that guy exist?
Excellent point.
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I would like to hear from someone who bought CTS and then wished they didn't, does that guy exist?
Excellent point.
They most certainly exist, and most would be buyers of equipment from vendors that were over-promised and under resourced/capitalized.
This technology is not at the plug and play point and possibly never will be due to the variables involved. It is much more than simply sourcing a graphic printer and slapping a new label on it, which was tried by a few not to be named here vendors.
in the 1990's when the original technology was launched computer resources were limited, during the early to mid 2000's much growth and evolution occurred and I am not sure the technology has matured even yet, but we are certainly in the awkward adolescent, acne prone, stage of growth.
Again, my 2 cents.
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I would like to hear from someone who bought CTS and then wished they didn't, does that guy exist?
I would bet there are some who bought and wished they didn't but that would be because of the brand they bought. Just saying you should buy CTS will lead some to buy products they will surely wish they hadn't. Do your homework people or get burned. A CTS purchase can be the best thing you do for your shop or the worse.
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As one of the guys told he didn't understand (but I really do) I'm still following along. Mr. Hoffman mentioned the Lawson he has for short money, which seems to be on the m&r forum. As Dave mentions, you get what you pay for, but sometimes, you can find deals that work really well until it's time to move up to something better, read more efficient. I said to my partner this morning "Imagine no pin holes, no lining up films or putting them away..." I didn't get to no vacuum drawdown or the rest. Also the easing of stress on the screen guy, which we have, it's his only job. So, I'm selling the idea thanks to everyone's input. This from a guy that started out with tray developed silver based films, and an Arc Lamp...
Steve
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Don't forget, a CTS is only PART of the system.
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We have the Douthitt wax unit. We are currently doing ...... 2-4 screens a day. We have the MHM Xtreme S Type and Shurloc frames. I will say that it is ALL about the support. Mark at Douthitt is the bomb. Call anytime and boom he will not hang up until he is satisfied that you are satisfied. I run a screen print division of a large offset printer. He just started the textile division and bought what you would expect an offset printer to buy. If it can be automated I have it. To quote the guy from Jurassic Park "spared no expense" There are many good units out there and a few great units. But even a bad unit with great support trumps a great unit with bad support. Do the research and but what fits. There are equipment manufacturers other than M&R. Look at all and then make your choice.
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I added CTS... I only have two presses. Just the Tri-lock factor alone will pay back your investment quicker than you think. I've got an ROI on an excel sheet I can send you if you want me to - Austin@webem.com
You plug in your own numbers (wages) screens per day/setups per day and it will tell you what you save. Ours paid for itself in a year. We also didn't use tri-lock before.
I am an M&R fanboy - Just because of the service. I can't say our CTS has been all roses. It has done funny things multiple times. We have had to re-install the software twice. Multiple trouble shooting sessions on the phone, and even had to replace the PWC and up/down board. Having said this...the machine was always back up and running within an hour or two. The Service at M&R cannot be beat.
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Both will increase production capabilities.
But if you're not using your triloc bc your guys are old school and feel they can setup just as fast by eye, then CTS isn't going to do much for you at press, as far as setup speed goes.
If you are not using the triloc now bc you don't like carrier sheets, you should see big improvements with a good CTS and triloc.
We save a lot of screens to file and reprint. The other day I watched one of our employees take twice as long setting up a job that we had on file that was burned OG with carrier sheets, compared to the same type of job we have been setting up with CTS (using triloc ). I'm sure some have better results using carrier sheets than us, for us it was just too inconsistent for our shop, and a lot of our guys would still setup by eye. Our CTS has fixed that.
It sounds like you have read all the ROI, so I won't go into that.
If 60 screens a day is all you can produce now with the equipment you have, the right CTS will more than likely increase your capabilities, and allow you to produce more.
Now using the triloc with CTS is where you will see your increase in setup speed allowing you to get more out of what you have now.
30 screens a day per press per day isn't the worst you could be doing, depending on the type of job and type of garments.
On the side of a new press. CTS won't allow you to print another 5k impressions per press per shift, but a new press will....so if that's what you need, a new press may be best for your shop.
Murphy
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Am I the only one who thinks any shop could benefit from CTS? I don't care if you do 10 or 50 screens a day, anytime you can automate and produce predictable results, your production will rise and costs will fall.
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^^^ I agree with you. I may do a dozen or two screens a day, and CTS is next on my purchase list. It's worth it alone to not have to deal with the headaches of lining stuff up manually and taping up reg-marks.
Still think CTS.
Much cheaper than a new press and the crew to run it.
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^^^ I agree with you. I may do a dozen or two screens a day, and CTS is next on my purchase list. It's worth it alone to not have to deal with the headaches of lining stuff up manually and taping up reg-marks.
Still think CTS.
Much cheaper than a new press and the crew to run it.
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If u want to see one, I think you are just up the street from me.
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Am I the only one who thinks any shop could benefit from CTS? I don't care if you do 10 or 50 screens a day, anytime you can automate and produce predictable results, your production will rise and costs will fall.
I am 1 that probably averages 10 screens a day and have Dts. I have never regretted. If all we did was screen print then I would've never made the move but having a dts has given me much more time to work on the other things our shop is involved in.
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we are probably similar in size to shirtshack, we average between 10-20 screens a day. I would NEVER look back.
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Am I the only one who thinks any shop could benefit from CTS? I don't care if you do 10 or 50 screens a day, anytime you can automate and produce predictable results, your production will rise and costs will fall.
I am 1 that probably averages 10 screens a day and have Dts. I have never regretted. If all we did was screen print then I would've never made the move but having a dts has given me much more time to work on the other things our shop is involved in.
With the lower numbers are you able to gang jobs up on the screens like you would with film?
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When we got our CTS we were only printing 4 days a week, maybe 10-15 screens a day. We are doing 100-150 screens a week now and printing 5 days a week.
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Am I the only one who thinks any shop could benefit from CTS? I don't care if you do 10 or 50 screens a day, anytime you can automate and produce predictable results, your production will rise and costs will fall.
I am 1 that probably averages 10 screens a day and have Dts. I have never regretted. If all we did was screen print then I would've never made the move but having a dts has given me much more time to work on the other things our shop is involved in.
With the lower numbers are you able to gang jobs up on the screens like you would with film?
I would think you run the screen twice for that, once, turn it 180°, run it again, or save a special file combing the two jobs...
Steve
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Alan, are your 3 solid guys also making screens, cleaning up or are only on the carousel?
The guy that develops, reclaims and coats screens also catches at the end of the dryer. My press op stays at the press but the other 2 guys and my part timer can do anything else that needs done from tearing down the press to stacking up shirts.
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Am I the only one who thinks any shop could benefit from CTS? I don't care if you do 10 or 50 screens a day, anytime you can automate and produce predictable results, your production will rise and costs will fall.
I am 1 that probably averages 10 screens a day and have Dts. I have never regretted. If all we did was screen print then I would've never made the move but having a dts has given me much more time to work on the other things our shop is involved in.
You can gang, I've never created a special template to run 2 images at the same time. I've just flipped the screen and ran it through the second time for the 2nd image.
With the lower numbers are you able to gang jobs up on the screens like you would with film?
I would think you run the screen twice for that, once, turn it 180°, run it again, or save a special file combing the two jobs...
Steve
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Thank you for all the insight, I have more numbers to crunch based on our shop and our current type of production. After seeing the POV's in regards to getting more out of our current crew and equipment, I am believing that CTS will probably be the right choice for us currently. I will look into our current set up times, and see how many more short run jobs we can fit into a week. As stated before we may eliminate some of that second shift. I'm excited to also see the quality of the screen as well. I feel like we'll be able to better capture some of the smaller halftones like 5% and under compared to our current set up, maybe we won't. I'm sending off a job to the CTS MFG to be made for me. When I get it back I'll test real life set up times in our shop using the CTS. Thanks again for all the response, the info on here is priceless.
I added CTS... I only have two presses. Just the Tri-lock factor alone will pay back your investment quicker than you think. I've got an ROI on an excel sheet I can send you if you want me to - Austin@webem.com
I'll reach out to you on this. Thanks for offering it.
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As one of the guys told he didn't understand (but I really do)
Steve
I think I'll just delete my smartass remark on this as to not completely derail this like I do most of the CTS threads.
I find it hard not to comment on some of the other posts in this thread that I disagree with. I don't have the time to spend arguing with people on some of the things that have been said here so I'll just continue to ignore them even though I believe they do absolutely zero in helping other shops make the right decision when it comes to this important question. I've spoken with many of the leading experts in the CTS field, and many sales people who are trying to sell them to me, and if anyone would like to ignore what they have to say on what shops will benefit more and less from a significant investment like CTS then by all means, ignore them.
If you hate film and have money to burn, burn it. A CTS shop hopefully will run smoother than the same shop using film, but I think there are many shops out there that prove quite firmly that you can produce a ton of work with film. I'd venture to say that half, if not more than half of the top performing shops (production efficiency and quality) on this forum don't have a CTS. And also, a CTS isn't going to make a bad shop into a good shop. They should make a really good shop great, but a great shop only marginally better. I think there is a diminishing return from CTS when you already have fast setups and efficient pre-press routines.
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To piggyback on Alan's comment, the guy already has a trilock and isn't using it. I'd say the first step would be to start using it and see what benefits they see in the shop. Read the recent thread about DIY FPU's and the trilock and how close to microless setup you can get with no new equipment. While the "getting the image on the screen" part will be a bit quicker with CTS, the setup on press will be nearly identical, so learning to use the trilock NOW will help in the future with or without the CTS. I can't understand how anyone with a trilock compatible auto would be relying on registering to a film taped on their press instead of superior technology they already own...
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CTS argument is always interesting. Not every shop runs the same. We each comment with based on each of our shops context, but each shop are different and staffed differently. Some have spent bunches of time on perfecting each process and that's great. Some shops don't have that time and are already working year around burning candles at both ends. So maybe they hire a CTS machine to make things easier. If you got a bunch of free time and your trying to put off a CTS expense, I would certainly spend every minute you can improving all that pre-press work. Neither are particularly wrong. Many shops here are very bare bones on employees and stretched thin on free time. So everyone has to evaluate what is smartest for their situation.
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I'd agree with Alans post
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Alan's post is correct, and he's right it comes down to the shop.
if they aren't using any sort of pre-reg then getting another press is a waste of money. I watched a shop with 7 or 8 autos not print a single thing for the 2 hours I was there because they were all setting up jobs. That's pathetic. It was the first jobs of the day. That being said, CTS probably wouldn't help them much because they didn't have their crap together. Maybe they could change their workflow to make it work, but there were too many bad habits.
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^^^ I agree with you. I may do a dozen or two screens a day, and CTS is next on my purchase list. It's worth it alone to not have to deal with the headaches of lining stuff up manually and taping up reg-marks.
Still think CTS.
Much cheaper than a new press and the crew to run it.
If u want to see one, I think you are just up the street from me.
Yessir! not too far from me. I'd love to come check it out!
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^^^ I agree with you. I may do a dozen or two screens a day, and CTS is next on my purchase list. It's worth it alone to not have to deal with the headaches of lining stuff up manually and taping up reg-marks.
Still think CTS.
Much cheaper than a new press and the crew to run it.
anytime!
If u want to see one, I think you are just up the street from me.
Yessir! not too far from me. I'd love to come check it out!
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anytime.
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As most of you know, I'll bitch about just about anything! ;D I was very skeptical about CTS mainly because we had a very good reg system, which in my mind canceled out a good amount of CTS justification. And with the long list of things we should of addressed first, a "new model" price for us just didn't make sense. We got a great deal on one and did it. Happy we did. We are in the lower screen count camp as well, but it really makes for a nice workflow. There have been times we are imaging, burning, soaking and coating at the same time. Need a auto rinse out and the cycle would be complete.
Here are what I've found to be the biggest drawbacks(it is hard to even call them that but again, remember I like to bitch). Probably different on different machines but still something that probably relevant.
- Multiple size screens provide the need for a bit more thinking and extra time.(Multiple size screens is a stupid idea for many more reasons besides this I know)
- The initial learning and understanding of the art prep.
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To piggyback on Alan's comment, the guy already has a trilock and isn't using it. I'd say the first step would be to start using it and see what benefits they see in the shop. Read the recent thread about DIY FPU's and the trilock and how close to microless setup you can get with no new equipment. While the "getting the image on the screen" part will be a bit quicker with CTS, the setup on press will be nearly identical, so learning to use the trilock NOW will help in the future with or without the CTS. I can't understand how anyone with a trilock compatible auto would be relying on registering to a film taped on their press instead of superior technology they already own...
I'm no where near the level of even starting to think of a CTS. But I did make a DIY tri-lock system and have only had one job since where I had to touch a micro. Not having to tape film to screens has been very nice
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If it were me, I would chose another automatic press. I understand why CTS users love them. But at the end of the day, I find it hard to believe that ROI is faster/greater versus what another press can offer used effectively. First thing, START USING YOUR TRI-LOC! You may find the results slow you to put off adding equipment.
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If it were me, I would chose another automatic press. I understand why CTS users love them. But at the end of the day, I find it hard to believe that ROI is faster/greater versus what another press can offer used effectively. First thing, START USING YOUR TRI-LOC! You may find the results slow you to put off adding equipment.
Press + crew
vs
machine to streamline processes
It's a no brainer to me, honestly. Crew means salaries and mostly problems (injury, being sick, pregnant, etc).
Use tri-loc and see where that leads you. definitely faster set up times and better use of the equipment you already own
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Let's say this guy adds the auto instead of the CTS, can he handle the extra screen load on his screen guy(s) to support another auto? How much time is his shop spending on registration not using a Tri-Loc?
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All in all it's a nice problem to have when you can't decide what cool new gear to get next... :)
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i agree, more employees + more potential headaches.
That being said, I love my crew, but if somebody is out it can seriously screw the day or week. Your CTS shouldn't come in on Monday hung over or sick with ZIKA. Not to mention hiring 2 people + a press would equal about 5x more than the monthly payment on a CTS. Just sayin.
I would honestly look at a consultant as well. You should be using your tri-lock. Your are wasting time there and frankly that's the most troubling part. A new press would simply be a band-aid on larger problem.
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I would honestly look at a consultant as well. You should be using your tri-lock. Your are wasting time there and frankly that's the most troubling part. A new press would simply be a band-aid on larger problem.
I have had the pleasure of visiting quite a few shops and am often greeted by an unused tri-loc gathering dust in the corner,
Lots of excuses, none are valid reasons, but they all begin with "My guys tied it once & ....."
To quote Mr Coudray, it is all about CPR, if you don't control the variables you accept less than....(Fill in the black)
My 2 cents this morning,
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Greg, next time you see one of those, let me know. I'm looking for another one
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Greg, next time you see one of those, let me know. I'm looking for another one
Saw one not too long ago on Digitsmith.
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Thank you, Sir.
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Thank you, Sir.
Who you calling "Sir"?!?!?!?!?!?!? :o
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Sorry, I've been drinking.
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As we grow I'm beginning to change or slightly alter my thoughts when it comes to my prior production model principles, which includes not buying an additional auto until you're running multiple shifts (and no longer want to do that) or there is a customer coming on board that will require another press being installed. That model we've stuck with has holes in it, I can admit that, and the question on this thread is something we're being faced with this year. To stay with our current production model the decision is CTS all the way. But with an aging press, increasing production needs, the pressure being put on a single auto and the odds that the press going down with something major has me seriously contemplating a 2nd auto instead of CTS. Part of that decision is definitely based on our current abilities and setup times and I think we will see more benefits with the CTS on the pre-press side of the production loop but maybe we could see setup times that include rarely having to move a micro but I'm not going to bet the farm on that. I can see dozens of scenarios where a 2nd auto would save our butts this year and I think with CTS not being a part of our current setup, we might be much better off using that money for a 2nd auto even if most of the time we're only running 1 auto during the day. Our RPM will be 7 years old soon, it's only got 2.1 million impressions on it and it still has a lot of life left in it but when we're cranking out 10 jobs per day with one auto and that one auto goes down it will cause all kinds of problems. I don't care how bullet proof a press is sooner or later there will be things like air leaks and mother boards, membrane buttons, flash unit issues, so many different components of the press to go bad and our model doesn't work if we're dealing with nagging press problems even on a monthly basis. The perfect scenario would be maybe sticking with the one auto but upgrading our current press, selling the RPM and then wait another year to add CTS. Each day I worry that all these years of trouble-free days with the auto are going to catch up to us. A big beautiful new auto would ease those worries of mine and also allow us to keep a smaller crew and leave us more money to go CTS sooner than later.
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Sorry, I've been drinking.
10am.... Why so late? Did you sleep in this morning? ;D
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I didn't say I just started.
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If I had two autos here, in good shape that fit our needs, then I would add CTS.
If I only had one auto or one of the two autos was on it's way out/wasn't meeting our needs, then "third" auto it would be.
But that's us. We couldn't roll with Alan's one auto structure and we also would not find any advantage in a third auto at the moment.
Certain types of work favor additional press, curing and/or warehousing capacity over improved pre press. CTS is fantastic, but it's just a pre press tool. And pre press capacity may or may not be your bottleneck.
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1 auto, 1 manual shop here... wouldn't give up the cts for anything.
We run a LOT of short run jobs... (average order is like 20 pieces, sometimes 4+ screens for a single job)... we average about 100 screens a week.
While we could/would do prepress pretty well with carrier sheets, the cts makes life so much easier, and makes better screens.
Setup times are directly related to using a trilock, we average less than 5 minutes per screen to setup a job with minimally skilled/minimally trained labor in both the screen room and press.
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1 auto, 1 manual shop here... wouldn't give up the cts for anything.
Setup times are directly related to using a trilock, we average less than 5 minutes per screen to setup a job with minimally skilled/minimally trained labor in both the screen room and press.
Gotta ask, can't help myself, but here goes. Are your daring to describe Tiffany as 'minimally skilled/minimally trained' or is that her description of you ;D
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1 auto, 1 manual shop here... wouldn't give up the cts for anything.
Setup times are directly related to using a trilock, we average less than 5 minutes per screen to setup a job with minimally skilled/minimally trained labor in both the screen room and press.
Gotta ask, can't help myself, but here goes. Are your daring to describe Tiffany as 'minimally skilled/minimally trained' or is that her description of you ;D
Guess I just thought Jason had left his account up and Tiffany had posted.... ;)
1 auto, 1 manual shop here... wouldn't give up the cts for anything.
Setup times are directly related to using a trilock, we average less than 5 minutes per screen to setup a job with minimally skilled/minimally trained labor in both the screen room and press.
Gotta ask, can't help myself, but here goes. Are your daring to describe Tiffany as 'minimally skilled/minimally trained' or is that her description of you ;D
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Gotta ask, can't help myself, but here goes. Are your daring to describe Tiffany as 'minimally skilled/minimally trained' or is that her description of you ;D
Absolutely not... the 'minimally skilled'/'minimally trained' is our artist/press op/screen cleaner/tiffany's helper... he's learning, but had absolutely no print experience when he started 6 months ago, and we are still in the process of developing our employee 'training' program/guides.
To be able to tell him, "press these buttons and this will happen" makes the process of making good screens that much easier. We did teach him how to register jobs as tiffany likes super minimal choke on the underbase, but that's about it.
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1 auto, 1 manual shop here... wouldn't give up the cts for anything.
Setup times are directly related to using a trilock, we average less than 5 minutes per screen to setup a job with minimally skilled/minimally trained labor in both the screen room and press.
Gotta ask, can't help myself, but here goes. Are your daring to describe Tiffany as 'minimally skilled/minimally trained' or is that her description of you ;D
Haha! Jason wouldn't dare make that comment since he likes his health:) Although to Alex's point, Jason borrowed my laptop on vacation, and forgot to logout, so now I can post as him. Bwahaha!
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...Bwahaha!...
I just realized that I'm almost your neighbor. Mind if I stop by sometime? (Seriously)
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...Bwahaha!...
I just realized that I'm almost your neighbor. Mind if I stop by sometime? (Seriously)
your'e more than welcome to come visit.. just give us a heads up a day or 2 before to make sure that we have time to talk :)
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your'e more than welcome to come visit.. just give us a heads up a day or 2 before to make sure that we have time to talk :)
Thanks! I'll PM you for details.
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CTS will be the best investment but getting one that improves the quality is key. Compare the Douthitt wax jet (send in screens and your image) over any film device and you will see more quality and density.
Mark Diehl
Douthitt Corporation
313 515 8635
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I wanted to follow up and let everyone know our results with this - First thank you for all the information and a few members personally reaching out to talk with me. The knowledge really helped us with making this decision.
We ended up going with a CTS system over adding another automatic and it has been installed for approx a month now, with I believe around 1200 images now to date. After the initial reorganization of systems regarding our art department and screen room relations, things have been going extremely smoothly with a definite increase in both screen output as well as increased speed in set up times. Some positives I have noticed that I did not think about before purchasing -
- Art Department now outputs more separations in a day without the labor of printing film, packaging, running to the screen room and organizing numerically in our library once screens are completed. I don't have an exact number but visually it looks like 20-30% more per day. Throwing sep files through the RIP and saving to the server is so much faster.
- Increase in resolution of halftone work over film - because I believe it to be the density of wax on smaller percentages. Still need to fully dial in our exposure and have been trying samples of other emulsions as well to perfect our settings - wax CTS, LED exposure, (we still have our 5K), screens coated by auto coater
- Starting to create a production loop in our screen department - now one person image screens, expose and coat all at the same time. The output from these machines has been incredible coming from all manual applications last year.
- Having yet another reminder to work on tighter screen tension - we use all static frames
One thing we did not fully do our research on is the consumables of the machines on the market. There is a lot of selling points of obviously with not purchasing film, and creating extra cash flow, however the consumables I believe are close to the same price at the end of the month. I still need to find that number exactly once I have a little more of a track record with the machine, but I did not look up pricing on consumables between inkjet vs wax before hand. We're Happy with CTS and glad we went this route compared to another automatic.
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How much has your production actually increased?
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Talking about Wax CTS, means you haven't invested in I-image? But your unit is having Tri-Lock, right?