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screen printing => Equipment => DIY - From master engineered marvels to cobbled together jury-rigged or Jerry-built junk! => Topic started by: Itsa Little CrOoked on January 17, 2016, 09:24:11 PM
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I've searched and searched. I am only doing 12x12 at this point so it doesn't need to be huge.
I tried a heating pad but it doesn't have enough heat (wattage) and I'm really struggling with paper stability.
The 2nd pass might be off 15 or 20 thousandths or more....but that's just a guess. I haven't really measured. I'm trying to do my 1st trip down the tunnel at the same temp and dwell as the first gelling pass.
Anybody have a good one they care to share the design details for?
Thanks!
Stan
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Stan, you know i am a moosegoldberg......so here goes
see if the pics below give you any ideas
mooseman
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Woah! Are we making cocaine here!? ;D
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Nope, Alex. No cocaine use in my eclectic collection of hobbies!
My mind....although similarly twisted....went directly to Barbequeing in the Dark! I have a Weber Smokey Mountain at my shop. The back opens up to the alley and I often can be found with a couple of Chuckies, some Ribeyes, or a pair of Butts in pone of the various stages of YUM! I smoke Ribeyes first in Apple chips for about an a quarter @ 200, then sear them at the end in butter on the hottest skillet I can muster. "Reverse sear" is the term.
See, I even hijack my own threads. ???
Moosey, I was more thinking a styrofoam insulated plastic bin from Office Depot with a silicone pad heater in the bottom. But Thanks!
I can NOT find the perfect heating element. I don't want a huge thing. My workspace is starting to look like one of those Hoarders on A&E.
140 Watts of heating pad from Walgreen's is just not enough. I really googled hard, but no joy.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Moroso-23996-External-Self-Adhesive-Heating-Pad-5-x-7-Inch-400-Watt,32140.html (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Moroso-23996-External-Self-Adhesive-Heating-Pad-5-x-7-Inch-400-Watt,32140.html) This shows a 400 watter for under the oilpan Minnesotan in January kind of thinking. That's too many shekels for an experiment, plus it's pretty tiny. Mike's idea would provide more even heating, by far.
I wondered also, if a dimmer switch and Nichrome wire might work. Or maybe just some Nichrome wire and a lot of math. The math is a bit of problem for me. I used to build heated motorcycle jackets and gloves, but I didn't do much of the math myself. I shamessly stole most of it from the interwebs, and modified it for my needs. (They did work, very well indeed! The gloves were bullet proof. The jackets were fragile. I tried some pants too, but they were too hot and you could see red skin on my legs after a long ride in the low single digits.)
Somebody, somewhere.... has done this already.
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Nope. A dimmer switch and Nichrome wire is not safe. http://jacobs-online.biz/power_supply_design.htm (http://jacobs-online.biz/power_supply_design.htm)
But I don't really want to do that much work anyhow, unless there isn't another way.
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I've searched and searched. I am only doing 12x12 at this point so it doesn't need to be huge.
I tried a heating pad but it doesn't have enough heat (wattage) and I'm really struggling with paper stability.
The 2nd pass might be off 15 or 20 thousandths or more....but that's just a guess. I haven't really measured. I'm trying to do my 1st trip down the tunnel at the same temp and dwell as the first gelling pass.
Anybody have a good one they care to share the design details for?
Thanks!
Stan
We only styrene boxes like this:
http://www.jbpackaging.co.uk/thermo-boxes.html (http://www.jbpackaging.co.uk/thermo-boxes.html)
Keeps paper warm, and moisture out.
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Thanks Boris!
It looks like there might be a possibility there.
What do you use for your heating element?
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I believe that this method is more of a storage in a controlled environment rather than a conditioning chamber like you desire.
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Well...then maybe a similar box with just a Walgreen's style heating pad will do. I have one of those to test, but it sure doesn't get very warm.
And I googled a box like Boris showed in his link, and nothing similar showed up on this side of pond in a brief search. Those looked slick, for sure.
I have some Really Useful Boxes from Office Depot that aren't insulated, but sure could be.
Pass to pass, I am just amazed at how much dimensional movement I'm getting from the papers I've experimented with. The transfer specialty houses surely must work in a controlled enviornment.
But I know this can be done in a tee shirt printshop. Several of our TSB memebers do it regularly. Mimosatexas for sure and LarryK just to name 2 of many.
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When I did transfers, I always ran the paper through the dryer first to "pre-shrink" , but that could get crazy on big runs.
Perhaps, all you need, would be similar to the plywood ink warming boxes I used to see that merely used an incandescent light bulb as a heat source.
If I had to do what you are discussing, I'd probably simply store my paper in my screen-drying cabinet.
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Just spit balling but what about a heat rock for a reptile?
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probably i misunderstood. To keep paper warm, styrene box is enough. To condition it, you need dryer. Same as used later on for printing/ gelling
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probably i misunderstood. To keep paper warm, styrene box is enough. To condition it, you need dryer. Same as used later on for printing/ gelling
So, Boris, you run it through the dryer like I did?
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Bathroom heater/vent could work I'm sure.
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Stan.... from what I understand you are not doing massive amounts of transfers so what I might suggest to you is to pre-shrink only the amount of paper needed for the job by running your paper through your dryer TWICE before printing and then print till the job is completed. No need to store it and take a chance on it changing sizes when the humidity levels change...... as long as you print within a reasonable amount of time you should be good to go. And if you must have a hotbox just use one of those small ceramic heaters that has a thermostat. Good Luck.
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Ok.
I may be on to something here. I doubled my heat pad, folded over in half, and stuck a 12" bi-metal thermometer inside the folded halves. 1t's at 150° after 10 minutes or so.
So I'm thinking in a really well insulated styrene box ala Boris, with a heating pad inside, sending the paper through the tunnel first (maybe twice ala LarryK) I might be getting close to dimensionally stable papers.
The ceramic heater would provide a massive overkill for the tiny box I'm thinking of, but it is a possiblilty. And I have a couple of those to try out too.
Will update.
Thanks all!
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And Gilligan, I have a similar space issue to you. This thing is gonna have to sit on a shelf until needed. So the bathroom fan idea is more attractive than a thingy on a cart of some sort....less attractive than a Really Handy Box with a heat pad of some unknown wattage. I'm tripping over myself here.
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And Gilligan, I have a similar space issue to you. This thing is gonna have to sit on a shelf until needed. So the bathroom fan idea is more attractive than a thingy on a cart of some sort....less attractive than a Really Handy Box with a heat pad of some unknown wattage. I'm tripping over myself here.
Bathroom heater could be done pretty easily and wired up to a female Edison.
Also there are heat lamps that could be made onto a box pretty easily.
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And Gilligan, I have a similar space issue to you. This thing is gonna have to sit on a shelf until needed. So the bathroom fan idea is more attractive than a thingy on a cart of some sort....less attractive than a Really Handy Box with a heat pad of some unknown wattage. I'm tripping over myself here.
Bathroom heater could be done pretty easily and wired up to a female Edison.
Also there are heat lamps that could be made onto a box pretty easily.
As I noted, even a regular standard incandescent light bulb will heat an enclosed small area like he needs quite well. Stan's box will be even smaller than the boxes I mentioned that needed to hold a gallon or two of ink.
His would probably only need to be about 15"x15"x6" and maybe only need 15-25 watts
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True dat!
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And Gilligan, I have a similar space issue to you. This thing is gonna have to sit on a shelf until needed. So the bathroom fan idea is more attractive than a thingy on a cart of some sort....less attractive than a Really Handy Box with a heat pad of some unknown wattage. I'm tripping over myself here.
Bathroom heater could be done pretty easily and wired up to a female Edison.
Also there are heat lamps that could be made onto a box pretty easily.
As I noted, even a regular standard incandescent light bulb will heat an enclosed small area like he needs quite well. Stan's box will be even smaller than the boxes I mentioned that needed to hold a gallon or two of ink.
His would probably only need to be about 15"x15"x6" and maybe only need 15-25 watts
I would go this route, it's too easy and with a little ventilation it's very safe. Incandescent bulbs are so inefficient putting out light that 97% is heat so they are great, and you choose the wattage you want. I have seen them used with temperature controllers in fridges/freezers for fermentation temperature control as the heat source.
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Uhh... You can't use incandescent bulbs... Obama! Duh! ;)
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I still see 'em as specialty decorator items, and don't they still use small ones in fridges and ovens?
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Actually even the easy bake oven has moved away from the light bulb now. :(
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Just going to chime in here since I have been helping a bit with the transfer process. I do not use a box of any kind, but I do run the papers through the dryer first. Depending on how many colors and how long the run is, I could see the value in running them through twice, or at a higher temp or longer dwell, and using some kind of box to keep them warm. Most of my transfer runs are small enough or simple enough that I haven't seen the need though.
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probably i misunderstood. To keep paper warm, styrene box is enough. To condition it, you need dryer. Same as used later on for printing/ gelling
So, Boris, you run it through the dryer like I did?
Yes, off course. Can't imagine a better way.
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So I found ZERO insulated boxes the size I need and am considering something like this:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-well-insulated-travel-cooler/?ALLSTEPS (http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-well-insulated-travel-cooler/?ALLSTEPS)
(except without the beer)
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I don't know where you would find one, but over the years, I have gotten products shipped in disposable foam boxes of various sizes and configurations, including the shallow type shape you are describing, something like 20x15x6
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20x15x6 would be suitable...almost perfect. I tried Uline and they had a 20x20x12 OD with 1.5" of insulation in a cardboard shipping box. 38 and change plus freight.
I dropped my medical heating pad in an ice chest after work today with a thermometer. I'll check it after while, but the danged thing cycles off in 90 minutes.
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back to "cobbling". Just get a sheet of foam and cut pieces to fit in a nice cardboard box.
That said, I think that many of us agree that a bigger piece of the puzzle is the initial and immediate shrinkage and its added stability you'll achieve with a trip (or two) down the belt.
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back to "cobbling". Just get a sheet of foam and cut pieces to fit in a nice cardboard box.
That said, I think that many of us agree that a bigger piece of the puzzle is the initial and immediate shrinkage and its added stability you'll achieve with a trip (or two) down the belt.
I may indeed be partly barking up the wrong tree here, Andy. Registration trouble is why I'm looking to build a hot box in the first place.
I'm self taught mostly, (Well that, and theshirtboard) so since I've never been around "best practices" in an established shop except Kitson's for a workshop, I know I'm still making occasional basic boo-boos. Trial and error are the order of the day many times. (For most of us, I suspect)
I built my own vacuum platen which fits on my manual. My homemade "stop tabs" are in question at this point, as is my general expectation of what can be achieved on paper, I reckon. And....I'm new to multi color transfers.
I can shrink a piece of paper, (twice) walk it from the end of the belt right back to the press and print the first pass. Immediately back in the tunnel, and immediately back to the press. Unless it's pouring down rain outside, I oughta be able to hit that 2nd pass, dot on dot. Right?!? Same plate, same squeegee, same printing technique.
Am I just expecting too much?
I printed some one color transfers today for stretchy headbands. With all the stretch additive, the ink was a little translucent through a 110, so I printed the papers twice as described above. The tiny (Registered) "R" with the circle around it was egg shaped after the 2nd pass. They were okay, but I didn't like it. They were .259" in diameter. I tried several times, and they all looked pretty much alike. So I figured it wasn't my loading technique or the stop tabs.
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I really like to come up with workarounds trying hard sometimes on doing things differently, I know most of you are surprised ::).
I do not print transfers but what little i know about this process and paper in general is paper and moisture like to combine and paper always is the weaker member of that association. Additionally paper by virture of the paper making process has a grain of sorts just from the way the stock is deposited on the paper making machinery.
So how to stabilize the paper.........this hit me from something we do in our embroidery work.
We buy embroidery backing by 100 yard roll. When the roll gets down to less than 50% the curvature of the roll gets to be a PITA as the pieces we cut for our work hold that curl. It gets way worse as the roll gets smaller. We elininate this curl simply by placing a stack of cut squares about 1 inch thick in my heat press at about 250 degrees for about 15 minutes under medium pressure of the platten.
the result is an extremely flat and very dry piece of backing material that is very nice to work with when hooping ::)
From this I get two experiments (ideas) I woud try if I ever print transfers.
First i would put a stack of transfer paper in my heat press. let the heat and pressure modify the paper's relative condition just like the embroidery backing is modified.
Secondly just for "shirts and grins" I would try using a piece of embroidery backing as the transfer paper. The ink may not transfer but who really knows. Think about it if you are test printing on test pellons you are already printing ink on embroidery backing :o
the backing is a multidirectional weave unlike paper which has a grain and backing is extremely stable in all directions just try tearing or stretching a piece of it. Additionally the better stuff is treated with additives and coatings that enhance the material performance .
And if you have ever printed on a pellon you know how NICE the material prints.
moose-on-the-loose
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How about a restaurant food warmer?
Sent using Tapatalk
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How about a restaurant food warmer?
Sent using Tapatalk
Here's another option for the "box" itself
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-18-x-18-x-5-vinyl-insulated-pizza-delivery-bag/124PIBAG2VNL.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKEAiA2ve0BRDCgqDtmYXlyjkSJACEPmdwigmpyGBdSV62JAGwBR1AYcuoA2edyxMT4tR8r5tl1hoCjQbw_wcB (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/choice-18-x-18-x-5-vinyl-insulated-pizza-delivery-bag/124PIBAG2VNL.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKEAiA2ve0BRDCgqDtmYXlyjkSJACEPmdwigmpyGBdSV62JAGwBR1AYcuoA2edyxMT4tR8r5tl1hoCjQbw_wcB)
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Stan..... it sounds to me like you have your paper shrinkage problem dialed in and now you need to get your registration figured out. It takes a lot of practice to be able to place that paper exact every time...... Here is a suggestion for alignment on your vacuum table. I know you have a plotter so first cut 2 strips of your thickest vinyl you have 1" X 15"..... place the first strip going horizontal near the top of your table where the top of the paper will be.... place the second strip to the left side of the first strip at a 90 degree angle... so it looks like a framing square... be precise with this. If you are using a foot switch to turn on your vacuum make sure to hold your paper until it is sucked firmly to the table.... look it over and make sure the paper is where it should be before you print it..... and just like everything else.... Practice Practice Practice.
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Stan..... it sounds to me like you have your paper shrinkage problem dialed in and now you need to get your registration figured out. It takes a lot of practice to be able to place that paper exact every time...... Here is a suggestion for alignment on your vacuum table. I know you have a plotter so first cut 2 strips of your thickest vinyl you have 1" X 15"..... place the first strip going horizontal near the top of your table where the top of the paper will be.... place the second strip to the left side of the first strip at a 90 degree angle... so it looks like a framing square... be precise with this. If you are using a foot switch to turn on your vacuum make sure to hold your paper until it is sucked firmly to the table.... look it over and make sure the paper is where it should be before you print it..... and just like everything else.... Practice Practice Practice.
I will try this. Thanks Larry. I've heard of thick vinyl being utilized for this purpose before. I have some paint mask that can be plotter cut. It will release easy too!
And Frog, I still haven't given up on heating a small box lined with styrofoam.
And Moose, I question the consistency the heat press idea would yield, but your idea is noted in the ever less reliable gray area of my cranium.
I'll look up restaurant food warmers too.
I am aware how heating the air in the winter with a furnace, simply expands the available moisture until the relative humidity is effectively reduced. I kinda get that.
I'm just not sure how moisture content would actually be effected in an air tight container by adding heat, no matter which temperature range I manage to achieve. This concept is foggy in my mind. I can see how if the container is partly OPEN, how adding a CONTROLLED, heated air flow might maintain, or even further reduce moisture content.
Thanks guys!
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Heat press is a bad idea. The paper will warp oddly in my experience. Yrmv of course
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I did find something cheap enough to be interesting at Bed Bath and Beyond.
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/1/1/40261-nostalgia-electrics-nonstick-electric-griddle-warming-tray.html (http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/1/1/40261-nostalgia-electrics-nonstick-electric-griddle-warming-tray.html)
I might be able to start here, and wind up with an enclosure that could be opened if needed.
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Double Post, sorry. Why can't I remember how to delete a boo boo?
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From the same place, way cooler!
Not as small, but the wheels make it easily movable, and there's plenty of room for other related items.
(http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/BedBathandBeyond/7092714877665p?$478$)
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Great! After I finally give up screenprinting, I can keep the cart and sell weenies! In the hot sun even.