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Computers and Software => Computers and Software - General => Topic started by: Binkspot on September 26, 2011, 06:07:09 AM
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We have been a Mac shop since day one running i-mac's and a older G5. I also use the Mobile Me for back up and I-web for our site. The G5 is on its last legs and will be cost prohibitive to upgrade again. I have been looking to replace the G5 and add two more additional computers for some basic stuff around the shop. Before I jump into some more mac's I wanted to know who' using PC's, how they compare to the mac's for doing art work and why they went with a PC. Also how well does Windows 7 work or do you run an older operating system, how much memory should be considered, graphics card memory etc. If I go to PC's will they work together with my existing mac's or do I have to do a cumbersome save to a different format to open jobs from one to another. Any information would be helpful, thanks.
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PC's have come a long way and are much more stable and reliable then they used to be. So as far as the ability to get work without crashing, they are about as reliable as the Macs are.
It might be tempting to build one yourself, but stick with something put together by a large manufacturer. They spend the time testing and insuring compatibility. To make things even better, look into a workstation rather than a regular PC. They cost more, but run ECC memory (error correction and checking) and the packages put together are tested extensively. The components are similar, and in many cases identical to regular boxes, but the testing usually lasts 10-20 times longer just to eliminate any possibility of problems. Most consumers do not know what workstations are and shy away from them. This makes them pretty cheap when purchased second hand. A computer that was $4k two years ago is now down to $700. These are boxes pretty similar to your top of the line Mac workstations. On my computer I regularly run 20-30 windows open and it has been months since I had to restart it. Just like on a Mac, I have to close a program here and there, but that might be once a week on a computer that is used 10 hours per day. I will admit that the Macs will be a little smoother and a little less prone to issues, but after running a Mac at home for 5+ years, the difference is so minute that it is not even worth debating. When it was time to update, I bought a PC.
It is possible that I do not have as many problems as I tend to know what I am doing with the PC's (have computer engineering background and have owned several computer companies one of which was an IBM business partner). Dan seems to struggle with his PC after switching from a Mac, but I think Dan has two left thumbs when it comes to computers!!! :)
Your bigger issue will be the software. If you own programs for a Mac, you might have to buy them again. This can be a lot of money if you need new versions of Adobe products. In the end, if the cost of switching to PC is 90% of buying a Mac, I would stay with a Mac. If you are replacing the hardware only,with a PC you'll get 95% of the performance for 25% of the price.
If you do decide to buy a PC, send me a PM and I'll tell you what to get and where. These are off lease or open box systems with a 90 day warranty, ECC memory, wider bus for faster data transfers on the motherboard, higher cache on the processors and video cards optimized for Photoshop (they have features in photoshop that are not available on regular cards like faster and smoother zooming, ability to rotate the canvas, pixel grid and so on). They start at $200 for older XP versions to about $1k for a fully loaded box like this one "ThinkStation S20, 1 x Quad-Core Xeon 2.93 GHz/8 MB, RAM 4 GB, HD 1x147 GB, Floppy - None, DVD-Writer, LAN Gig EN, Tower, DVI-I Out, Vista Business, OS License Only, Black, NVIDIA Quadro FX 1800" for $673. Spend another $250 for the win7 and another high speed hard drive and you are running the same hardware that would cots you $4k with a Mac.
pierre
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Hi there.
Pierre know more about computers than me, but here is my view of the issue.
First off all, I hate every minute spend on a PC when I work on the artwork or anything business related.
With that said, let me explain. Like I said, I do not know much about how to work on improving my computers, I have just a regular PC desktop and a PC laptop bought in a store. Nothing custom.
I can clearly see that the stuff you can buy in BestBuy and stores like that are not made to be used for business (stuff up to a $1000).
Also, If you are to spend a few grand for a PC Workstation or to build something custom, I would go and buy a MAC.
I have my iMac for 7 years now and I had to reboot it one in those years and that was due to my mistake. It is getting a bit slow after 7 years, but it is still running faster than my PC.
Ease of use, one of the advantages of the Mac, no annoying upgrades (at least not as much), no need for Virus Crap (at least for now) and convenience of all-in-one if you are to go with iMac (that 27" looks really NICE), build with our industry in mind (artwork software) and they were standard in most of the design houses and studios.
When I had it with PC's is when I purchased my desktop for my embroidery software, I got it with Vista just before they came out with W7. I could not wait any more due to the machine arriving, so I hat to upgrade from Vista to W7 after I receive the Upgrade DVD with W7 on it. After I started upgrading, I was prompt to install the "Upgrade Assistant" before installing W7. It was needles to say that "Assistant" would not work, and it would not run on Vista. After 3 days, I was done upgrading :(
I have 2 PC's (one for Embroidery software and a laptop to carry around) and one Mac, and I will always call myself a Mac person.
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And that is why you go with the Thinkstations. They are freaking incredible. I would put a brand new one up against a brand new MAC any day of the week. They cost about the same as well....so you get what you pay for. It's not necessarily the PC vs MAC argument, it's the cheap components vs good components.
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Macs use standard Intel chips and standard components put together on a motherboard made in Taiwan (or China?), it has a Unix OS with their own interface. They have control over QC.
PCs are built around standard components/Intel chips etc. Windows 7 is pretty good, they've moved towards Mac as Macs move towards PCs. The QC is controlled by whoever puts the package together.
PCs cost about half what a Mac costs, though the Mac might have a slower CPU. If you spend the same cash on a PC as a Mac, the PC will be miles faster.
Frankly software is the biggest cost and the most likely source of crashes.
Mac-heads will love Macs in a way that PC users will never love PCs and I confidently predict that this thread will get very boring very quickly. If it works for you, use it.
No need for upgrades - of course Macs upgrade.
Don't think that a Mac will protect you from viruses, you can only damage your own files, not the OS but you are still vulnerable.
Macs look nicer than PCs - well that's true :)
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It's not necessarily the PC vs MAC argument, it's the cheap components vs good components.
Or....... Windows against Mac OS.
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It's not necessarily the PC vs MAC argument, it's the cheap components vs good components.
Or....... Windows against Mac OS.
I don't really think it is the Windows for the most part. As already mentioned, the QC is the key. THat is a reason why buying a ThinkStation from Lenovo (IBM) is the way to go. Most of the time is spent on certifying the drivers so if it comes with the system you will not have a problem with it. If you throw a million different programs on a computer, you are bound to have problems with compatibility. With Macs Apple controls what goes on it and thus have less compatibility issues. If you chose to install only legitimate good quality software on your PC, you are not likely to have problems either (or to be exact, no appreciable difference).
As far as longevity, yes my Mac was pretty old when it was retired, but my Compaq workstation was 9 years old when it retired about a year ago. It is now being used as a computer for the office work. To be honest, it was a little pricey when new and I have added RAM, soem hard drives and a SATA card to it over the years, but it still works fine. It is suffering from the same problem the Mac did when it was retired, it just got to slow for comfortable work (with photoshop, illustrator and other taxing programs).
pierre
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PC or MAC.. It's like Masturbating with the non-dominant hand,
Both have the same end result, one just screwed you more than the other.
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As a Mac guy, I'm not even thinking of getting new machine because it comes without Rosetta (in Lion), which lets your machine use the older software. That means you have to buy all new Adobe software, and that pisses me off to no end. (3 machines here, and 2 at home, that's a lot of cake) You can't choose the upgrade path either because the new machine won't be able to recognize that you already own the software. I'm hoping someone will figure out that they (Apple and or Adobe) are "you know whatting" their base. If I were to consider a PC, wouldn't I have the same problem, but now compounded by a whole completely new and somewhat foreign operating system?
Steve
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Buy some intel mac minis. Load them up with ram. If your using iWeb for your website, remember that is an apple program and will NOT run on a PC.
I'd hate to see you buy a PC based just on the upfront cost. Their is a reason people switch from PCs to macs but you rarely hear of people leaving the mac for a PC.
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W7 will run quite a bit of older software in compatibility mode, not everything but PS/Illustrator CS (2003) still run just fine. W7 is one of the better offerings MS has brought to the table, it's stable and quick on my machine.
My last PC lasted 7 years and has now only made it's way down the food chain to a lesser use in the office, which is how most of our machines finally die, as internet terminals or faxes etc, we use them up on something.
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Seriously, it's about the hardware. Thinkstations use better hardware. I have never been as impressed with a computer as I have been with the thinkstation...PERIOD
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Buy some intel mac minis. Load them up with ram. If your using iWeb for your website, remember that is an apple program and will NOT run on a PC.
I'd hate to see you buy a PC based just on the upfront cost. Their is a reason people switch from PCs to macs but you rarely hear of people leaving the mac for a PC.
my problem is really about having to buy 5 brand new copies of both Illustrator and Photoshop, not the price of a new Mac... We have a mini being used a server of sort for the art and as the print server for AccuRIP. I've been a user of those particular programs since the early 90's and always upgrade eventually. But Lion, sans Rosetta, won't recognize the older program that the upgrades are for, therefore, one needs to purchase a whole new copy and license.
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That would piss me off.
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Buy some intel mac minis. Load them up with ram. If your using iWeb for your website, remember that is an apple program and will NOT run on a PC.
I'd hate to see you buy a PC based just on the upfront cost. Their is a reason people switch from PCs to macs but you rarely hear of people leaving the mac for a PC.
my problem is really about having to buy 5 brand new copies of both Illustrator and Photoshop, not the price of a new Mac... We have a mini being used a server of sort for the art and as the print server for AccuRIP. I've been a user of those particular programs since the early 90's and always upgrade eventually. But Lion, sans Rosetta, won't recognize the older program that the upgrades are for, therefore, one needs to purchase a whole new copy and license.
Unless something has changed, Adobe allows you to install their software on two different computers. I have CS3 on both my old G5 desktop and (still)) on my MacBook. Maybe buy 2 copies and only install on one at home, plus the 3 at work?
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Buy some intel mac minis. Load them up with ram. If your using iWeb for your website, remember that is an apple program and will NOT run on a PC.
I'd hate to see you buy a PC based just on the upfront cost. Their is a reason people switch from PCs to macs but you rarely hear of people leaving the mac for a PC.
my problem is really about having to buy 5 brand new copies of both Illustrator and Photoshop, not the price of a new Mac... We have a mini being used a server of sort for the art and as the print server for AccuRIP. I've been a user of those particular programs since the early 90's and always upgrade eventually. But Lion, sans Rosetta, won't recognize the older program that the upgrades are for, therefore, one needs to purchase a whole new copy and license.
Unless something has changed, Adobe allows you to install their software on two different computers. I have CS3 on both my old G5 desktop and (still)) on my MacBook. Maybe buy 2 copies and only install on one at home, plus the 3 at work?
I'll check that out, but the last time I looked, I could only find CS5 on eBay. I haven't given up yet, but I was about to get a new machine for one of the artists, but ran into this issue. So maybe, if I can find a CS3 Universal (installable on both PPC and Intel macs) I could upgrade from there at a lower cost. Thanks Tom
Steve
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Is there such thing as dual platform software?
A universal version of Illustrator or Photoshop?
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Some pretty good advice here, Considering that the mac vs PC for doing graphics died a decade ago.....
If you are used to the mac interface you'll probably Hate windos and loose a lot of time in retraining the way you work. Either way you are looking at new software purchases......
There is a reason you pay top dollar for macs and contrary to what PC'rs will tell you it is not for the logo. They are the Cadillac's of personal computing. Best Industrial design and only the best Technology and hardware ( Unless you have a pc custom made *( Royls Royce).
I defiantly would not buy a Wallmart Dell special :-P
And don't forget the 80 bazillion reasons Pc's Suck.... they're called mallitious Viruses! :o
you can be different and Run osX on a PC with a third party emulator or just run Windoz on a mac natively...
Personally If it where me,...... I'd Just get new drives in the G5 and reset it to Factory NEW!!!!!! and take off running!
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As far as I know the 2 installs are for 1 user only.....And you can not use both machines at the same time....
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And you can not use both machines at the same time..
Cannot or are not supposed to? if you unplug the network between them you can ;D
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[quote
Personally If it where me,...... I'd Just get new drives in the G5 and reset it to Factory NEW!!!!!! and take off running!
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I know you know your stuff inside and out Dave, you wouldn't want to expand on that a tad wouldja? Not aware of the "reset to factory new..." probably over my head, but I always love to learn something new...
Steve
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I read all of this and was going to post but I'd be posting the same old thing. Then, went back to work and experienced it again. Moved on. Then today, I am reminder and irritated again.
PC's or more so Window's operating system SUCKS. Call it what you want, compare what you want, price it how you want. In the end. It sucks when compared by a user form platform to platform.
With that said, Currently, due to price and not well to do yet, I will continue to use the sucky one.
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I read all of this and was going to post but I'd be posting the same old thing. Then, went back to work and experienced it again. Moved on. Then today, I am reminder and irritated again.
PC's or more so Window's operating system SUCKS. Call it what you want, compare what you want, price it how you want. In the end. It sucks when compared by a user form platform to platform.
With that said, Currently, due to price and not well to do yet, I will continue to use the sucky one.
Finally we agree on something..... LOL
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Just an FYI for the windows users here.
When people complain about old adobe software not being supported on newer macs, here is the deal:
Macs use to use Power PC Processors or PPC. In 2006 apple switched to using the intel x86 processors.
Apple had a compatibility layer for the last 5 years called rosetta which let you run PPC coded applications on Intel Macs.
In their latest OS release (OSX 10.7 Lion) they dropped the compatibility layer (rosetta).
With computer technology advancing at such a fast rate I think apple assumed that people have upgraded their applications in the last 5.5. years. That's why rosetta was dropped. It's time to move forward.
If your using Adobe apps on a daily basis for your business, complaining that it doesn't work on new macs because you haven't updated your app in 5 years.. well it's time to upgrade your software.
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My personal opinion is that Mac os ever since OSX has started to go the way of windows... just to much code.... same with adobe, I hate the newer interfaces!
SteveI know you know your stuff inside and out Dave, you wouldn't want to expand on that a tad wouldja? Not aware of the "reset to factory new..." probably over my head, but I always love to learn something new...
The hardware does not get beat up... Just the hard drive ( The only moving part other then the fans) if you buy a new drive and put the original system on it it will be a brand new machine... Lots faster then with the old beat up used uf fragged drive , apps and files on there.
Try it...
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P.S. here is the really cool part, Unlike a windows PC if you put the old drive in as a secondary... you can run the old apps off it with out reinstalling,or running off the old system. A PC has to put them in the registry of the running drive to do this. though they will probably run way better re-installed on the new drive.