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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: ZooCity on July 28, 2015, 04:14:17 PM
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CTS users, talk to me about setup times. As empirically as possible, how did CTS reduce your press setup times? If you could include your preferred on press reg device that would be super helpful.
I don't care about the rest of the CTS benefits as far as this conversation goes, just interested in press setups.
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we use i-image and tri-lock here
press setup time is now typically 2-3 minutes per color.. sometimes we get the odd screen that takes us a few test prints to get it perfect, but if it's choked .6pt or so "on the line" we can setup 4 times out of 5 without touching a micro. (We haven't gotten to the point where we can go an entire day without micro'ing tho)
I suppose with a very meticulious user with carrier sheets, a loupe and making sure that everything is perfect each time would be able to set the job just as fast on press... but the time savings in our screen room time due to just 'throwing' the screen in and hitting go are amazing. Plus a 'inexperienced' person can image screens.
the other major saving is that we don't use registration marks, so when we get things on press and in register, we don't have to go back around taping off the reg marks or blocking them out with nail polish.
we did not have any 'real' pre-registration device before we went CTS so I can't tell you exactly how much time we saved.
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Not to derail this too much but I think the removal of regi marks would benefit us as much as any other aspect of setup times. Reason for that thinking is we spend as much or more time walking around on a 6-7 color job taping up regi marks than actually aligning the screens.
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I'm also a tad curious about that, as I don't see how it would affect press setup. We have an MHM, so no tri-loc to deal with. The MHM FPU is super easy to work with, so if the heads on the press are zeroed out, then the set up is pretty dead on. However, we would probably still use register marks, especially with complicated art. Our press is never waiting for screens unless there was a mishap on press, and if so, another job is set up and run while waiting on the remake. There are always 2 - 3 jobs made and waiting their turn... It would be nice to lose the film making to save our artist time though, but I can't quite see the ROI coming back that soon. Still, I have an open mind...
Steve
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I guess I should note our current setup:
Film is aligned to carrier sheets and to screens using the Newman Pin Lock System.
Screens are aligned on press using either a tri-loc on our Sportsman or Newman Pin Lock platen on the Gauntlet and Manual.
We print 0.15pt reggies to film, 2 up top with center mark, one centered at bottom, but they are only for aligning the films to carrier sheets on the light table. So no reggies to tape/block on press, they are blocked out prior to press with a swipe of Aquablock while the screen is checked for other pinholes or issues. Top reggies are out of the stroke area anyhow, along with screen info.
I do use a "printable" single bottom reg mark for jobs that could use visual help with alignment on press but this is only for plastisol, typically CMYK or sim pro. Our WB/DC runs are too long typically to risk on press blockout, not to mention the time standing around waiting for reggies to dry.
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I don't know about you guys but registration is pretty low on the list of time killers for us.
Getting color or print sequence right, having enough squeegees/floods ready, cleaning pallets,etc,
wastes more time than getting a job registered.
I couldn't see not using reg marks. How would you know if you were out on a process or sim process print?
And on straight spot color, reg marks can be VERY helpful in determining which way you need to go. Think of a
circle centered in a larger circle centered in a larger circle. Good luck on registering that if you're
out on two screens.
For WB/DC we tape on squeegee side. Done right it'll last long runs no problemo. Make it smooth and offset the angle
to the squeegee.
Sorry to derail your thread.
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Not to derail this too much but I think the removal of regi marks would benefit us as much as any other aspect of setup times. Reason for that thinking is we spend as much or more time walking around on a 6-7 color job taping up regi marks than actually aligning the screens.
We haven't used a registration mark in a few years as soon as we went CTS with the first I-Image. There is NO NEED for reg marks. One less thing to worry about, especially with discharge printing, blocking out reg marks. IF, there is any micro to do, it is sooooooo micro. If you are out that much, then you are doing something wrong. If you are even considering getting into CTS, really, stop thinking and just do it. We are proof that the efficiency is well worth the investment. I paid off my first CTS faster than my first auto, which says somthing. The CTS coupled with an auto will just put you ahead of the game. There is no going back. Now having an ST, WOW, it's awesome and we are only using a single head. The guys with the multi head ST units, or STE units are flying through fast set ups. It's totally awesome and unfortunately the only way to see that is to have one in action for a week, but you can ask any of the guys who have gone CTS, they would not go back! Seriously.
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Reg is a pretty big time killer for us. Even a very small adjustment on an M&R press can turn into a big one easily, the clamps tend to move the screens when clamping and the whole front + rear micro thing is kind of a boondoggle. If you don't unlock the back clamp or use the rear micro, the adjustment torques the frame and it might come back out of reg during the run.
I agree that it is easier to reg to a mark, just one is very helpful. I'll run the diagonal top tape past my crew but I'm pretty sure it'll get shot down, our blades tend to tear up tape for whatever reason. I like the sound of it though.
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Prior to cts I would say we had average to below average times for setup. With the art and markets we print for we have lots of 8+ color jobs on our daily schedule. Lots of these jobs are short run as low as 36/48 pcs per design. Faster setups = less press down time which is key imo, keep those presses spinning is the only way to generate cash so to me setup time is extremely important. Where cts really helped me was taking out the variable of operators setting jobs up. One of my guys is awesome at running a press but horrendously slow at setting up where I have another guy that can setup reasonably fast but once introducing cts all my ops are setting up jobs in a more predictable manner along with being much faster. Prior to cts I was still a very small operation where I was not tracking as many of these items as I do now but I will say there would be jobs that would take over an hour or more to get going. Watching my ops take that amount of time dialing in a job was the most painful damn thing ever lol... Myself included as sometimes I would fight and fight getting a job in registration. On average though I would say it was taking is several minutes per screen. Fast forward to today with our new roq machines we never spend more then 20 minutes setting up a 10 color print. Recently we have done hundreds of jobs with setups averaging around 45 sec per screen. Cts paired with our new machines has taken all the skill out of registering a job on press as I can train anyone to do it in less then a half hour. But to sum it up and I've said it many times cts was and is the key to my production, without it I would not step foot in my shop again. Getting rid of cts or not having one would never be an option for me mainly due to setup time savings on press. We use a special reg pallet that goes on the press(I posted pics about a week back in another thread) which matches our cts. Running four autos in our shop now we rarely ever touch a micro nor do we print registration marks on screen. Nearly every job we lock the screens in, send one shirt around to confirm its registered then we start printing. If we have to make an adjustment it is so small I typically have my guys start printing then adjust and check the first shirt. Our setup time with roq are definitely faster then we were before imo mainly due to how secure the special reg pallet locks into the pallet arm vs how our tri loc pallet would always have side to side movement after going on the pallet arm. I'll try to do a quick vid this week setting up a job on one of our presses to show the real world time. But setup time was reduced by such a large amount for my shop/crew cts was/is the best investment for my shop. Like with anything though it takes weeks to months dialing in for optimal setups.
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This thread has me about 90% convinced to bite the bullet and go CTS. The extra $ will be well worth it if it keeps me from having to deal with films, inkjets, and registering issues/reg marks.
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This thread has me about 90% convinced to bite the bullet and go CTS. The extra $ will be well worth it if it keeps me from having to deal with films, inkjets, and registering issues/reg marks.
SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION- If anybody is on the fence regarding CTS adoption remember it is all about the workflow. PROScreen Workshop at Mind's Eye August 14-15 will have a complete CTS workflow demonstration as used at Mind's Eye as well as other CTS users of both I-Image and I-Jet equipment.
Check it out at www.mindseyeg.com (http://www.mindseyeg.com).
Shamelessly
~Kitson
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After replacing my pallets with new and not ebay bought and re-leveling and paralleling the heads I'm spot on about 90%. I do still print reg marks for sim process and cmyk but rarely need them. After going CTS, I spend more time here looking for the ultimate print speed, squeegee angles and flood pressure and other variables.
Like Jvanick said, there is a problem screen here and there but in my case I think it's user error, tension or a warped frame, etc. I don't know what kind of press you have but what has helped me is slowly and I mean turtle speed, flipping the frame holder switches while just putting just enough pull on the frame to make sure it hits the 3 points of the triloc. I used to pull to hard against the frame while using the triloc and that would throw the registration off a tad.
I've made some dumb decisions in business but CTS is by far the smartest one I've made. I would leave the house every morning with a frown if I had to go back to film.
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I said this in another thread but I think the decision to go CTS should be based on several factors: 1. Your efficiency with using film. And that includes the number of repeat jobs versus new, current setup times with film generated screens (the benefits for one shop that uses film and averages 2 test prints per job and 1-2 minutes per color will be completely different than the shop with no regi system and no good way to catalog existing film, poorly calibrated auto, etc) 2. Number of screens per day 3. Production capacity needs 4. Ability to produce quality stencils (this varies a lot between shops, DannyG needs higher quality screens than the shop printing for the local sports league). And those are just the main ones that are the biggest factors for me, others may see it differently based on their shop's needs and current ability/efficiency.
And reading Shack's post proves my point somewhat by what he said about spending more time messing with the print variables versus lining up screens with CTS. That's the way we are now, we do many more test prints to dial in the print variables compared to test-printing to get a job properly registered. Still though, I know we will need to cross the CTS threshold sooner rather than later due to the other factors I listed above. I think we will boost our production capacity by enough of a margin that it makes the decision an easy one, but I don't think we will see a huge increase in setup times because maybe we go from 2 or 3 test prints to 1 or 2, which will only save us a few minutes per day versus an hour or two per day at other shops. This decision is easy for some, not so much for others. But if you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, CTS is by far the best tool/toy/equipment to buy these days.
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I said this in another thread but I think the decision to go CTS should be based on several factors: 1. Your efficiency with using film. And that includes the number of repeat jobs versus new, current setup times with film generated screens (the benefits for one shop that uses film and averages 2 test prints per job and 1-2 minutes per color will be completely different than the shop with no regi system and no good way to catalog existing film, poorly calibrated auto, etc)
You really hit it on the head I think. We're pretty efficient with film. I would wager we could have a film-made screen ready just as quickly as a CTS made one, probably faster if comparing to a single head or slower unit. We also have waves of reprints now. Carrier sheet + film actually makes sense in our shop to a degree when you are talking about speed of throughput in our case.
It takes about 1.4 min to inspect, touch up if needed, align, tape to carrier, folder and label one film in the art room. It takes about half that time again in the screen room to unfolder, pin to screen, detape and refolder after expo. Let's call the whole thing 2 minutes. Is a CTS really going to make us faster here?
This is why I'm looking at decreased setup times as an equally or more important benefit of CTS. We use pre-reg, use it correctly (I'm hoping...) but still suffer up to 15min/screen setups or worse. The bulk of that time is eaten up microing, more like macroing, a handful of screens that are out or won't stay in reg. We have ample winged floods and blades to run both our presses through a couple jobs each before needing to even clean blades/floods and ink is done and often tested ahead of time. We're working on the prep side of staging jobs and eliminating the obvious, easy to fix, time sucks but in our case we ultimately need to drop the registration part of the setup time both for production needs and morale in working through jobs. It's a big downer to start fresh on a 4 color job and be barely ready an hour later despite constant hustling.
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Just out of curiosity, but what system are you using that results in 15 minutes per color to register a screen? My diy fpu plus diy triloc pallet and hand tightened clamps takes me maybe 5 minutes a screen on press to register, often much less. Even hand tightening I am able to do maybe half my jobs without touching a micro and on most 4 to 6 color jobs I am touching one or two micros at most.
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See above. Pin lock + tri-lock. M&R Autos both old (1992) and new (2013).
Fwiw, the system is highly accurate on our manual press with air clamps. Typically just needs a bump left/right, pure linear move which the Anatol manual does very well.
There is room for user error/differences in applying the film to the screen with the pin lock system but it requires nothing on your glass which was important to us in the past. It's the weak point of that system for sure but the tri lock film system is similar. Any system with carriers has to address the film hanging below it being applied identically on the screens.
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Is there much difference in micro work between the two autos or is it roughly the same?
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I meant when you do your first test print on either machine do they require the same amount of work to get registered or is the newer machine much more accurate when it comes to the initial setup?
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I meant when you do your first test print on either machine do they require the same amount of work to get registered or is the newer machine much more accurate when it comes to the initial setup?
I'd say the newer would have to be faster at initial. Micros are the same on both. Our old press is very clean so the micros aren't gummy on that one or anything.
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Is anyone here running CTS with an MHM setup? All the conversation regarding Tri-loc and it's assorted issues muddies the waters a bit, those issues don't factor in for me. (no disrespect to the Tri-loc, if you're an all M&R shop, it makes perfect sense) Dropping a screen onto the press is literally a couple of seconds. And I know we can get a piece of film on the frame and set to expose in about 10 seconds, so I'm not totally convinced, but I want to be convinced...
Steve
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I think CTS has the greatest impact on the setups that don't have built in screen alignment and a dedicated FPU system, i.e., everything but MHM and. S.Roque.
If all screens have their art perfectly aligned it really doesn't matter what you use to line em up on the press so long as it's consistent and the press clamps without knocking the screens out. As Danny mentioned there's even an advantage to tri lock style systems when it comes to CTS over the machines with built in screen alignment as a tri lock style platen doesn't need zeroed out. John Sheridan backed this up in a post about never getting perfect with the MHMs and CTS due to a desire not to zero out heads after all jobs.
With the MHM and other S.Roque options I think CTS benefits will be applied more to other areas of the shop.
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Is anyone here running CTS with an MHM setup? All the conversation regarding Tri-loc and it's assorted issues muddies the waters a bit, those issues don't factor in for me. (no disrespect to the Tri-loc, if you're an all M&R shop, it makes perfect sense) Dropping a screen onto the press is literally a couple of seconds. And I know we can get a piece of film on the frame and set to expose in about 10 seconds, so I'm not totally convinced, but I want to be convinced...
Steve
We use CTS with MHM. It's Epson based unit, we built MHM's FPU in CTS base construction. One MHM with GoTo (automatically all heads go to zero) it works very good. If screens (Newmans) are flat we touch micro maybe with one screen and even this not in all jobs. The other MHM S-type needs
to be exactly zeroed after each job in which you moved micros. Despite manual zeroing, on that machine we need more time to get job in register.
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Do you have a 4000 Boris? CTS+go to reg sounds amazing.
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it's older version: 3000 with goto, slower computer, mostly same hardware as 4000
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John Sheridan backed this up in a post about never getting perfect with the MHMs and CTS due to a desire not to zero out heads after all jobs.
Yes I ran some MHM's with a CTS and it was never just right, for this exact reason that boris states, move the knob and zero is gone.
One MHM with GoTo (automatically all heads go to zero) it works very good. If screens (Newmans) are flat we touch micro maybe with one screen and even this not in all jobs. The other MHM S-type needs
to be exactly zeroed after each job in which you moved micros. Despite manual zeroing, on that machine we need more time to get job in register.
I much prefer the Tri Loc style of setup as the reg pallet is what becomes zero no matter if last job had a micro adjust.
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John Sheridan backed this up in a post about never getting perfect with the MHMs and CTS due to a desire not to zero out heads after all jobs.
Yes I ran some MHM's with a CTS and it was never just right, for this exact reason that boris states, move the knob and zero is gone.
One MHM with GoTo (automatically all heads go to zero) it works very good. If screens (Newmans) are flat we touch micro maybe with one screen and even this not in all jobs. The other MHM S-type needs
to be exactly zeroed after each job in which you moved micros. Despite manual zeroing, on that machine we need more time to get job in register.
I much prefer the Tri Loc style of setup as the reg pallet is what becomes zero no matter if last job had a micro adjust.
OK, but why is zero-ing out the heads considered a major time suck or deal breaker? It's only a couple of seconds. Also, wouldn't the manufacturers of the units take MHM into consideration when building them? Lastly, if the idea is to not have to use the micros, how far out can they be at the end of a job? I'm pretty sure we zero out any heads that were moved (I don't run presses anymore, but the policy is in place for the printer running the press, and he's on board with the concept) so that set-ups are already pretty easy, and there are no clamps that could possibly push the screen out of register as can happen on older machines like our '94 Gauntlet, or older presses I've been involved with. By the way, ours is a 12 year old S-Type. Keep in coming guys, I really appreciate the input.
Steve
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I've always been very observant of MHM users, as well as others but we're talking about them here, and John's negative comments on the MHM system is the first I've ever heard of it being inferior in any way. Do any of the MHM users have the same issues that John had at Jak?
To get back on track somewhat, I think there are little things like screen clamping and print head calibration that can affect the registration system and I've seen them here. We've had a screen holder inexplicably get out of calibration by a good margin and had much more of a negative affect on registration than I would have ever thought. I know Chris has more knowledge of press calibration than the average shop owner so I would be surprised if bad calibration is the/a culprit of regi issues, but you never know, like I said, it's happened here and I have been very diligent on press calibration. I also very much prefer the half-dollar sized feet on a screen clamping system over the concave shaped bar as on several occasions I've seen screens move considerably once the screen is clamped down. The placement of the screen holders is very important when using the bar and they can't be out beyond the perpendicular to the screen frame by a large degree or you'll get screen shift. The clamp feet on our press hold our newmans so tight you can't move a screen by hand and it would take a hammer and a strong blow to knock a screen out of reg.
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Right on the money again Alan.
Calibration can in fact be an issue for us even though it's done regularly our presses get ran pretty hard and they go back out just as regularly. I've seen the random screen holders or platen that is just way off compared to the others. I'm going to start using an impact driver to do the print heads and I guess a small torque wrench for the platen bolts and see if it helps. My guess is uneven torque is why most presses go out of whack randomly, these machines are built well enough that it shouldn't happen regularly.
And yes, the newer style M&R clamp bars require precise location with rollers. The tech who set our machine up said that some shops will clamp down the manual clamps on the front as well when using rollers, which I think is self defeating to the overall system so we just locate very carefully and go without the manual clamps or any clamp adapters.
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In short, Yes.
We have been CTS for close to three months now. Setup was a big part of us going CTS.
As far as setups go, yes things are faster ( I would say we were pretty good with setup before CTS ) but yes things have been quicker. For me, yes work flow has become great with CTS, almost effortless, in some ways,.....some effort is still needed. ( but again work flow before CTS was pretty good ).
I think Danny said it best with "consistency", across press ops on press, & pre-press. Before CTS, using carrier sheets press ops could tell when person X burned screens or when person Y burned, now its much more constant across users.
Even when things went as good as they could with the old system, on press, things are much more constant with the CTS across the board. Press to press, op to op.
We keep a lot on screen.
Now when the press ops go for old screens they cringe, it's gotten to the point that it's just better to reburn the screens and know things are all dialed in, and if at some point I need to reburn a screen, it triloc's right in, same as it ever was. Very Nice!
We've had some hiccups here and there, very minor, and very quick fixes. But as of now, and what I can see in the future. We really like our CTS. ( M&R STE II )
Murphy37
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This has been a great thread. Thx for all the replies.
Just to stir it up a little- if you had the option, would you get a CTS unit or instead use the funds to go from an M&R style press to something with built in reg and more accurate micros, like an s.roque or MHM. Or, to be more precise, which assists more with setups, the right press/printheads or a CTS?
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For us the answer is both.
We have an SRoque with the pin reg system. While the PRU laser system is very accurate there still remains a level of human error when taping the films on. We are also finding the films to be slight off. That is, some are coming out slightly longer/shorter that others (an issue we are still troubleshooting).
We think the addition of a CTS with a matching pin system would all but eliminate the film placement errors, and the film differences itself, giving us a near zero micro registration system. We would prefer the M&R CTS but were told that would not implement S-Roque's pin system into there units.
With all of that said, our set up times are MUCH MUCH faster that they ever were with the carrier sheet/tri-lock set up.
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We would prefer the M&R CTS but were told that would not implement S-Roque's pin system into there units.
I beleive Danny Gruninger is using M&R CTS with SRoque presses
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Yes, but he doesn't have the pin system. I think it's U clamps and S-Rogues Pallet reg system (like the tri-lock). We do think we would have similar results in the end though.
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i know you can adapt it to MHM pin system
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You can adapt a CTS to a pin system rather easily. Just takes time to make/modify a jig on the CTS for it.
I understand why M&R no longer makes a CTS for machines that use anything but tri-lock, but I got to imagine if they did it would only increase CTS sales. It would increase troubleshooting & tech calls, but again I imagine unit sales would out weigh that.
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For us the answer is both.
We are also finding the films to be slight off. That is, some are coming out slightly longer/shorter that others (an issue we are still troubleshooting).
Have you tried print border.
I think it was Rocker that suggested to do it.
It helped for me.
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You can adapt a CTS to a pin system rather easily. Just takes time to make/modify a jig on the CTS for it.
I understand why M&R no longer makes a CTS for machines that use anything but tri-lock, but I got to imagine if they did it would only increase CTS sales. It would increase troubleshooting & tech calls, but again I imagine unit sales would out weigh that.
Our I-Image can work with all the machines I believe. We never changed our process.
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You can adapt a CTS to a pin system rather easily. Just takes time to make/modify a jig on the CTS for it.
I understand why M&R no longer makes a CTS for machines that use anything but tri-lock, but I got to imagine if they did it would only increase CTS sales. It would increase troubleshooting & tech calls, but again I imagine unit sales would out weigh that.
Our I-Image can work with all the machines I believe. We never changed our process.
I agree it can work with all machines. At least from what we were told is that you guys no longer make an adapter system for the I-image to work with other reg systems aside from the Tri-Lock.
I wasn't trying to be negative, hope it didn't come across that way.
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You can adapt a CTS to a pin system rather easily. Just takes time to make/modify a jig on the CTS for it.
I understand why M&R no longer makes a CTS for machines that use anything but tri-lock, but I got to imagine if they did it would only increase CTS sales. It would increase troubleshooting & tech calls, but again I imagine unit sales would out weigh that.
Our I-Image can work with all the machines I believe. We never changed our process.
I agree it can work with all machines. At least from what we were told is that you guys no longer make an adapter system for the I-image to work with other reg systems aside from the Tri-Lock.
I wasn't trying to be negative, hope it didn't come across that way.
Not at all. What we state is we cannot be responsible for making someone else s reg system work. Example we can put the screen holders buttons on our screen holder if you supply them but wont guarantee the reg system works on your press. It should but we do not get involved with another manufacturers press or system.
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For us the answer is both.
We have an SRoque with the pin reg system. While the PRU laser system is very accurate there still remains a level of human error when taping the films on. We are also finding the films to be slight off. That is, some are coming out slightly longer/shorter that others (an issue we are still troubleshooting).
We think the addition of a CTS with a matching pin system would all but eliminate the film placement errors, and the film differences itself, giving us a near zero micro registration system. We would prefer the M&R CTS but were told that would not implement S-Roque's pin system into there units.
With all of that said, our set up times are MUCH MUCH faster that they ever were with the carrier sheet/tri-lock set up.
I have come across this issue years ago on our thermal printer (Calcomp) similar to an Oyo and we found the reason of the stretching on some and shorter on others to be caused from the output device (type) and what time something in printed.
Example, If you have an 8 color job and you start it first thing in the AM, the printer is cold. As you reach the 8th color, the film has warmed up through the process (machine is hotter) and your colors can start to stretch (film is more pliable when warmed up) and has no stretch memory. The fix was to warm the printer up for a while before using so that the first few also came out while it was warmed up. Ours was a large format printer. 40" wide so it was exaggerated a little more than most films printers. The wider the printer, the less accurate it is. As a test, you can create a perfect square outline at max imprint width, print it out and measure. It will be larger in height than the width. Print a circle and it will come out slightly longer or egg shaped for the lack of a better word.
[/size]Still once we realized this, we would always still have some trouble areas where reggies/seps were off [size=78%]when ganging up seps to make good use of all the film. Seps with reggies on the left and right (outer sides) would be off. Everything printed in the center Perfect. This is yet another area where CTS benefits versus film output.
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Not at all. What we state is we cannot be responsible for making someone else s reg system work. Example we can put the screen holders buttons on our screen holder if you supply them but wont guarantee the reg system works on your press. It should but we do not get involved with another manufacturers press or system.
That's not we were told at the Orlando show last fall
For us the answer is both.
We are also finding the films to be slight off. That is, some are coming out slightly longer/shorter that others (an issue we are still troubleshooting).
Have you tried print border.
I think it was Rocker that suggested to do it.
It helped for me.
I don't want to derail this thread but we have tried that, and about 20 other things :)
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Not at all. What we state is we cannot be responsible for making someone else s reg system work. Example we can put the screen holders buttons on our screen holder if you supply them but wont guarantee the reg system works on your press. It should but we do not get involved with another manufacturers press or system.
That's not we were told at the Orlando show last fall
For us the answer is both.
We are also finding the films to be slight off. That is, some are coming out slightly longer/shorter that others (an issue we are still troubleshooting).
Its possible a salesman misunderstood our stance on the reg system. We already have many systems in the field making screens for other manufacturers machines. It may also be possible they were talking about a specific model as screens with attachments must use our larger version to accommodate attachments.
Have you tried print border.
I think it was Rocker that suggested to do it.
It helped for me.
I don't want to derail this thread but we have tried that, and about 20 other things :)
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It was Tim that told us. He also told us that know matter what press brand we purchased that a tech would come out and get our DB dialed in for us no charge, given our "numerous" issues in the past. We have heard nothing but crickets since.
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Not at all. What we state is we cannot be responsible for making someone else s reg system work. Example we can put the screen holders buttons on our screen holder if you supply them but wont guarantee the reg system works on your press. It should but we do not get involved with another manufacturers press or system.
Rich, it was actually you that told us you wouldn't do it for other brand machines. The now defunct group of us that was the KPI20 that you guys hosted for the weekend.
It's great if that has changed, but it may be something you guys make more clear. I've talked to probably half a dozen people looking at CTS in the last year, that didn't want to make their own jig...
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Not at all. What we state is we cannot be responsible for making someone else s reg system work. Example we can put the screen holders buttons on our screen holder if you supply them but wont guarantee the reg system works on your press. It should but we do not get involved with another manufacturers press or system.
Rich, it was actually you that told us you wouldn't do it for other brand machines. The now defunct group of us that was the KPI20 that you guys hosted for the weekend.
It's great if that has changed, but it may be something you guys make more clear. I've talked to probably half a dozen people looking at CTS in the last year, that didn't want to make their own jig...
We will NOT make a jig for other manufacturers machines to work like a Tri-Loc pallet. We will put the attachments on our I-Image ST machine to hold a screen like MHM if the customer supplies the cups and a screen to use for placement. We will not guarantee the placement system will make registration screen to screen on a competitors machine.
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I purchased an I-image last year but own 2 TAS autos. I have a pin system and yes the image in it's current set up will not register perfect on press. We made a recommended adjustment to the image and did get better results but not perfect. Though it's not perfect the amount of time the machine has saved me (imaging & exposing) has more than justified for a little registration time. I've ended up putting about 2 hours a day of production back on my presses because of how much time that machine has saved me. So don't be to discouraged about them not building you a jig for your press. I mean put yourself in his shoes would you do the same. Hope this helps.
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I'm trying to understand how you get 2 hours a day back on press; was the press not running because screens needed to be made? Every day? Or am I missing something? Our press runs all day except for changeovers, we always have a few jobs ready to go. Just curious, trying to see if it will make a difference for us. Personally, I think they run too much money. And, I would want one that has considered our MHM into the mix when manufacturing. I do really appreciate everyone's input, thanks to all for taking the time.
Steve
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I run a short staff so it was taking a lot of time just to print film and the expose. It was taking us roughly 10 to 15 minutes to print film out for a full front or back then exposure times were 2.5 minutes to 4.5 minutes. I also purchased a starlight so now my exposures are 3 to 14 seconds. So basically im doing that whole prosess in a minute which in turn allows my guys to print more.
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Steve you can give me a call if you want I can give you some insight.
Ross
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Steve you can give me a call if you want I can give you some insight.
Ross
I can see that if your staff is working on screens and film instead of printing, that indeed yes, you get a lot of time back to run the press. Keep pushing the sales so you can have dedicated staff and keep that press running; if it's not running, you're only spending, and not making anything. Maybe add a part timer to help with ink cleaning and reclaiming, so the press keeps running. In our beginning, my partner and I did everything; sales, art, screens, printing, shipping, office work. Our first hire was a full time printer, I took over the office and art, my partner took over screens, and also printed. Next, was an artist, who did art only, which let me help out in the shop more, and concentrate on sales. Next was a screen person, bought our first auto, and so on. For us, the press runs as much as possible with 2 or 3 jobs waiting in the wings, ready to go, which is why we wouldn't see that happen. Films are produced in the art dept and in the screen room, the setup is so easy for our press, that taping a film on the screen is a 5 second operation. And please don't get me wrong, I do like the idea, but can't see spending the money there instead of somewhere else, like a new press or more efficient dryer. Hope you're having a good one, Ross.
Steve
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Trust me I've been through my fair share of employees. I'm the only contract shop in my surrounding area (20 to 30 miles). I bring printers in and they get excited about the quality but then when they start having to do 1000s of shirts everyday versus 100s they lose interest and quit. Been dealing with it for almost 10 years.
But the i image has eliminated a lot of time. We no longer deal with pin holes, human error on film placement, exposure time, etc. Even if I had part timers and so forth the printing out of film would still be an issue. Anymore I swear all we do is 4 colors and up every day so it's a lot of film and a lot of screens and this has allowed us to use that time in other areas.
It's definately worth considering if you have 2 autos or more; just my 2 cents have a good one.
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good employees are very tough to find, no 2 ways about it. I'd like to say that "kids today" thing, but I'll end up sounding like my Dad when he said it to me 50 years ago; not that it isn't still true though, LOL. We are damned fortunate to have a great staff, I'll say it every day. OK, as I'm typing this, my production manager just screwed up two shirts, football shirts, then made the exact same mistake again. This woman is great, she handles so much stuff here, her making one mistake is extremely rare, 2 in a row is totally out of the question. Yes, getting a good crew is very tough...
Steve
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The crew is one of the biggest assets we all have. You can spend hundreds of thousands of $ on machinery, you can have all the best gear out there, if you crew is mediocre you'll never get anywhere.
We've been making a lot of changes lately to improve quality and speed, trying also to do more production. We're getting there but the more money I spend, the more I feel it's the crew that's holding us back.
Being new to screen printing I used to think our gear wasn't right or that the processes weren't working for us but I've been spending lots of time here reading and making some much needed changes in the shop and I'm becoming a lot more critic of the work we make.
It's all about the staff!!
Biggest problem is screen printing is all but dead in my country. You cannot find a single person with experience doing it. Last year I got my M&R installed and the tech told me it was the first in two years he was installing. It's crazy!
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Biggest problem is screen printing is all but dead in my country. You cannot find a single person with experience doing it. Last year I got my M&R installed and the tech told me it was the first in two years he was installing. It's crazy!
Hey, where are you located? That's crazy. I swear 1 out of 2 people are wearing a printed shirt everywhere I have been lucky to go. Estonia, Indonesia, Panama, and elsewhere
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Biggest problem is screen printing is all but dead in my country. You cannot find a single person with experience doing it. Last year I got my M&R installed and the tech told me it was the first in two years he was installing. It's crazy!
Hey, where are you located? That's crazy. I swear 1 out of 2 people are wearing a printed shirt everywhere I have been lucky to go. Estonia, Indonesia, Panama, and elsewhere
Let me rephrase that. AUTOMATIC (big shop) screen printing is dead. No one can afford it. I'm based in Portugal.
Most shops out there have already been doing it for years and they got their seasoned crew but won't let go of them.
Last year I placed two ads asking for people (one in the summer, another in the winter). NOT ONE person with experience applied. It was nuts. I ended up hiring a screen printing hobbyist and it took us 4 months to start producing quality work. The other guy had no idea how screen printing worked. Both people (remember they were recruited at different moments) had to relocate as they lived 300km (almost 200 miles) away.
I dread the moment I need to hire again, that's why I'm holding on to them even if they're not the best out there
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Let me rephrase that. AUTOMATIC (big shop) screen printing is dead. No one can afford it. I'm based in Portugal.
Where in Portugal are you? I was there little less than 2 years ago, and went to probably a dozen shops. The smallest one was running 4 autos(they had like 200 heads of embroidery and multiple rhinestone machines). Over half the shops I visited were running a dozen autos. Some of the shops were running 24/7.
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Let me rephrase that. AUTOMATIC (big shop) screen printing is dead. No one can afford it. I'm based in Portugal.
Where in Portugal are you? I was there little less than 2 years ago, and went to probably a dozen shops. The smallest one was running 4 autos(they had like 200 heads of embroidery and multiple rhinestone machines). Over half the shops I visited were running a dozen autos. Some of the shops were running 24/7.
What shops were those? Never seen any like those. The biggest i've seen here runs 3 autos. Were those manufacturers or screen printing shops?
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They were screen printing shops. They did most their work for some chain of stores in the malls out there. They were all in or around Braga and Guimaraes area. It is a large industry up there. Where are you, more south in the country?
I have a whole thread and post with pics on here somewhere. I'll try to find the link.
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I would honestly appreciate that. I made a search with "Portugal" or "Braga" as keywords but couldn't find it. We are further south, yes.
These are probably factories that don't sell to the public. There's a big manufacturer cluster in the north, especially in Guimarães.
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Here it is-
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,10426.msg100616.html#msg100616 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,10426.msg100616.html#msg100616)
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Here it is-
[url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,10426.msg100616.html#msg100616[/url] ([url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,10426.msg100616.html#msg100616[/url])
ahh yes! but those are not screen printing shops imo. They're not even contract shops. they will work with manufacturers and big brands. it's a different league... pardon, PLANET! As you mentioned, they won't do less than 2500 shirts per order. How many people here can say their majority of orders are in that range? I would take the 1000 they were doing as a favor and would be super excited!