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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: Rocky Bihl on April 07, 2015, 08:36:15 AM
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The best way to get a true apples to apples comparison when you want to compare the performance of a new white ink to an existing one is to make a rectangular image on a 110 mesh screen where you can load 2 or 3 inks into the screen at the same time. Also use a squeegee long enough to ride against the frame on the left and still cover your rectangular image. This way the inks line up after you flash the first hit. This method insures the inks you are comparing get the same squeegee pressure, number of strokes, and exact same cure. This is far more accurate and easier to see than printing an image then curing it then printing the same image elsewhere on a shirt with another ink. I have seen printers compare 3 or more different inks this way on the same shirt , and the poor first ink down has to be run through the dryer 3 or more times and compared to the last one printed.
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Thanks for this. I am interested in printers thoughts.
While I agree that this may be adequate for a quick comparison using a manual screen, I strongly suggest this technique NOT be used for evaluating White inks on an automatic. Why? Very simply. Different white inks have different rheologies (flow properties). The best set-up for one ink, may be the absolute worst for another. As a matter of fact, I would suggest that if a printer evaluates ink in this fashion on an automatic, the incumbent ink has a MAJOR advantage as the press is already miked out for the best performance for that ink. A real world example:
A customer was using Brand X white -- running heavy pressure (50-60psi) and very slow squeegee speed. They were achieving good, quality prints. We put Brand Y in the screen, and under the same conditions, was DRAMATICALLY over shearing the ink resulting in very poor opacity and fiver matte down. We reduced the pressure to 30 or so and increased the speed by double and te resultant print was opaque and smooth. Better looking print and better production speeds! Additionally, some inks perform better with heavy flood stroke and lighter pressure versus a skim flood and heavy pressure.
IMO - The flood/squeegee profiles should be optimized for the individual ink to be a real test.
Best, Rob
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Of course ANY ink can be made to look better than another if the printer so desires. The 2 or 3 inks in a screen method is designed to give an ACCURATE comparison of bleed resistance/opacity of 2 or more inks under the same printing conditions. If a printer wants an ink to fail a comparison test, ( and some do) there are a million ways to manipulate a comparison test be it on an automatic or manual press. More often than not, if an ink shines in a side by side comparison, it will on an automatic press. And as for thick sticky Polyester white inks that require slow squeegee speeds with lots of pressure,,, we do not make any of those ;)
Rocky
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I agree Rob.
The same ideas apply with manual printing. What it takes to lay down a good white with brand X, is not necessarily the same for brand Y. I tried the manual technique years ago and found I was not giving each ink its proper due. In a single pull test like that, the thicker ink would always win since you CAN NOT print faster than the thickest ink will allow (at least thats how a good manual printer SHOULD be printing). Or conversely, if you try and print fast, the thicker bodied ink will look choppy/wont shear properly and have very poor print results.
The fix? We simply cut up the shirt/fabric we were testing with pinking shears and printed each white sample individually. Giving each white its proper chance to shine. Sometimes you want that thicker bodied white - Sometimes you dont.
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Of course ANY ink can be made to look better than another if the printer so desires. The 2 or 3 inks in a screen method is designed to give an ACCURATE comparison of bleed resistance/opacity of 2 or more inks under the same printing conditions. If a printer wants an ink to fail a comparison test, ( and some do) there are a million ways to manipulate a comparison test be it on an automatic or manual press. More often than not, if an ink shines in a side by side comparison, it will on an automatic press. And as for thick sticky Polyester white inks that require slow squeegee speeds with lots of pressure,,, we do not make any of those ;)
Rocky
For a quick test that may give you some feed back. But there are too many variables that make that test really a waist of time. I have used so many white inks that I think I can say this. They all suck, some just less then others. Most white inks start out rough but after 15 or so prints they flow well. Then after about 50 the ink starts to stabilizes. With your test you will never see what the ink stabilizes at. That is really what the ink properties are. I have had inks that print really good from 1 to 75 shirts but when they stabilize they are too thin and runny. I have also seen inks that never stabilize. They change constantly over the run and you have to keep adjusting the press to keep the print consistent. You can probably tell us all kinds of stats on the inks that you make but when it comes down to it, we need to run the ink to know its good. There is no other comparison.
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I guess I am biased towards developing high performance low bleed inks for polyester. You need not get quite so technical just to measure bleed resistance/ opacity of one ink against another especially for 100% polyester garments! If a white inks has crappy bleed resistance, a basic print test is all it takes for that to become apparent. Not every printer on this board runs 15 automatics!!
Now if you want to talk big printers,,, we have developed several new ink series working with some of the largest printers in the USA that are bleed resistant enough for 100% poly, but soft enough and safe for 100% cotton. Saves a lot of ink room space if you can use the same ink series on everything! Oh yeah they print like a dream on a manual or automatic.
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I guess I am biased towards developing high performance low bleed inks for polyester. You need not get quite so technical just to measure bleed resistance/ opacity of one ink against another especially for 100% polyester garments! If a white inks has crappy bleed resistance, a basic print test is all it takes for that to become apparent. Not every printer on this board runs 15 automatics!!
Now if you want to talk big printers,,, we have developed several new ink series working with some of the largest printers in the USA that are bleed resistant enough for 100% poly, but soft enough and safe for 100% cotton. Saves a lot of ink room space if you can use the same ink series on everything! Oh yeah they print like a dream on a manual or automatic.
Rocky - I hear ya, but look at your first post as the OP. Nowhere did you state testing for bleed resistance on 100% poly. You stated, "The best way to get a true apples to apples comparison when you want to compare the PERFORMANCE of a new white ink to an existing one ............." All of the replies were based upon this statement.
And, you do not need 15 automatics in order to take print testing seriously. One auto is fine......
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Your right Rob, I should have been more precise. I bet most screen printers print on lots of poly,, be it 50/50 or 100% so I just assumed when printers test a white ink, that is the first thing that crosses their minds. After all anyone can make a white that works on 100% cotton. There is a reason though that there are tons of screen printers out there switching to our white inks and using OTHER ink manufacturers colors..... You can make a marginal color line work if you have an excellent white ink to go with it. Of course I am sure you knew that already! :)
By the way I thought one of the few good points silicone ink sellers used to justify all of the mixing,, refrigerating, using before it cures headaches was that it was BLEED-PROOF.... So whats up with the RFU Gray underbase for bad bleeders,,,???? thought that didn't happen
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I don't think I have ever tested for bleed. If an ink works great for bleed control but prints like crap it will never be used here, I know your with me there. Any brand color ink can get the job done but if you want good hassle free prints you need to test even colors. Some colors like red and yellow are worth a little extra money to get good coverage. Then you have greens some brands are seriously sticky. I have to be honest I have never used any of your inks. Sounds like you make a good product that you are very proud of.
Since your a ink tech can you tell me what the pigment load is in a white ink compared to a black ink. I am just curious to how much more pigment it takes to make a white ink.
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In most circumstances dry white pigment will run roughly 1/3 of an inks formulation. But just as important as pigment loading is the type of viscosity an ink formulation has. The push to make screen printing inks non-phthalate really hurt plastisol ink rheology(viscosity) especially for inks designed for low bleed applications. Believe me, after exhaustive research, I have finally hit on combinations of ingredients that give excellent viscosity, printability, opacity, and the best bleed resistance available. You can formulate a white ink that has considerably more white pigment, but if the rheology is not right, the lesser pigmented white will always have better opacity. As for most black inks the actual dry pigment loading is roughly 2 percent.
Thanks for the kind words. I am very proud of the inks I have formulated for One Stoke Inks. Our owner is so proud of the quality of service and product that we sell here, we have a 100% money back guarantee on EVERYTHING WE SELL. If you don't like any ink, vinyl, supply, whatever you can return for a full refund no questions asked. Now how can you go wrong trying anything we sell??
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In most circumstances dry white pigment will run roughly 1/3 of an inks formulation. But just as important as pigment loading is the type of viscosity an ink formulation has. The push to make screen printing inks non-phthalate really hurt plastisol ink rheology(viscosity) especially for inks designed for low bleed applications. Believe me, after exhaustive research, I have finally hit on combinations of ingredients that give excellent viscosity, printability, opacity, and the best bleed resistance available. You can formulate a white ink that has considerably more white pigment, but if the rheology is not right, the lesser pigmented white will always have better opacity. As for most black inks the actual dry pigment loading is roughly 2 percent.
Black ink is 2 percent pigment. Wow that is a surprise. I figured whites were in the 30 percent range but I would have never guessed blacks would be that low. Good info, thanks.
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He said dry pigment.
That is not dispersed pigment. Dispersed pigment is what you will see in a pigment mixing system. Typically dry pigment is mixed with a plasticiser and the percent of dry pigment to plasticiser will very greatly.
As for white pigment being a third of the ink. That is by weight, not volume. Titanium Dioxide (TiO2) is really heavy.
As for going non Phthalate hurting rheology: Didn't happen to every ink company.
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Sorry not to be rude but I was lost at 110 mesh. There is no room in todays print shop for a 110 unless your doing specialty prints or only want your work to be compared to whats hanging in Walmart. You cant get a realistic test from a 110 because even with a good ink it is not the right tool for the job. The idea of a good white ink is not having to use a 110 mesh to print it in the first place.
A real test would be to put that through a nice 225-S at 25 newtons and see what it can do.
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As for non-phthalate ink rheology, depends on what application the ink is designed for. 100% cotton ink is very easy to formulate non-phthalate. Now if we are talking about an ink designed for and actually works on 100% polyester or even the sublimated digital camo that's another story. As I said above, we have a 100% money back guarantee no questions asked for a reason. We have the best inks available for the most demanding applications and we stand behind them 100%,,, anybody else have that guarantee?
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Your right Rob, I should have been more precise. I bet most screen printers print on lots of poly,, be it 50/50 or 100% so I just assumed when printers test a white ink, that is the first thing that crosses their minds. After all anyone can make a white that works on 100% cotton. There is a reason though that there are tons of screen printers out there switching to our white inks and using OTHER ink manufacturers colors..... You can make a marginal color line work if you have an excellent white ink to go with it. Of course I am sure you knew that already! :)
By the way I thought one of the few good points silicone ink sellers used to justify all of the mixing,, refrigerating, using before it cures headaches was that it was BLEED-PROOF.... So whats up with the RFU Gray underbase for bad bleeders,,,???? thought that didn't happen
Rocky: A couple of points. Make a marginal color line work? Right..... Sure it's easy to make color cover, cure, and be wash fast. Ask yourself this -- why does Wilflex and Rutland OWN the institutional printing (contract and vertical) market for color (ie color system). I bet combined they have 70-80% share in North America in this market. Much more difficult to make a base material that prints wet-on-wet over long runs without build-up, rheology loss, etc. But I bet you already knew that. :)
One Stroke makes some very good inks for the athletic and custom market. I have always thought them a good competitor who made good products and did not give them away price-wise as some small regional manufacturers do. One Stroke and Union enjoy a nice share in this market and have been considered leaders. Wilflex has gained traction with their Top Score product and International Coatings with their 7100 series, but One Stroke and Union had the bar set.
I think it is great that you take pride in your work; I bet most of us here (printers, distributor, manufacturers do as well). However, this pride sometimes seems a bit like blatant self promotion (particularly in this thread). While I am not a moderator, I would ask that you keep the sales pitches to the classified section. The purpose of the board is to educate and discuss peer-to-peer, not self-promote. There are a number of respected people here from many companies that do just that.
Regarding the silicone, I really don't want to hijack this thread changing the subject, but since you are the OP, I guess you already did. Nice attempt at trying to slam a product line (chemistry) of which your company does not have. There is a place for both silicone and plastisol chemistry. If you would like to debate, please open a new thread. Then everyone can weigh in on pros and cons in their view and experiences. This is the kind of banter that benefits everyone. But to specifically address your questions/statements:
Justify all the mixing - really? Adding a catalyst is "all the mixing"?
Refrigerating - no need. Colors catalyzed and kept at room temp will last DAYS. Refrigeration will keep for WEEKS.
Using before it cures headaches - Come on now. Easily get a full shift. Not all silicones are created equal.
BLEED-PROOF - no such thing and you know it - not even with your money-back guarantee plastisols. Silicones have ZERO bleed resist. You should know that as well. While you use blockers/absorbers in plastisol -- not needed in Silicone. Cure temps are WAY below the polyester dye sublimation points. As a matter of fact, you can skin cure around 200F and the product will continue to cross link over time. It works and it works well. Wonder why one of the largest sportswear printers switched 100% silicone....
So whats up with the RFU Gray underbase for bad bleeders - the Gray is really for printing on dye sub cam shirts. Dye Sub inks are different than polyester dyes -- but I am sure that you already knew that. :) We do not need the gray for polyester dyes. And most of the camo shirts do not need it either as the silicone surface is porous and the dye sub will literally gas through over time (~36-48 hours). I have seen some from Asia where this does not happen, then the Gray or a standard black underbase works well.
Lastly you CANNOT achieve the hand/feel, drape, and elongation (with recovery) properties with any other ink system than silicone. The number one global apparel brand in the world uses silicone prints as their gold standard.
Hope some of my comments did not come across as too snarky, but I cannot in good faith sit by and not respond. Again, I respect your company and their products. I appreciate your positional authority as the Technical Director. I am just a sales/marketing guy, and all of my knowledge and experience comes from the many great printers in all of the Americas (and globally) that I have had the privilege to work with and learn from over the past 28 years. Many of them are on this board and contribute positively every day. There is a place for all types of chemistries and competitors in the market.
Best, Rob
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He said dry pigment.
That is not dispersed pigment. Dispersed pigment is what you will see in a pigment mixing system. Typically dry pigment is mixed with a plasticiser and the percent of dry pigment to plasticiser will very greatly.
As for white pigment being a third of the ink. That is by weight, not volume. Titanium Dioxide (TiO2) is really heavy.
As for going non Phthalate hurting rheology: Didn't happen to every ink company.
What Colin said. He is wise! :)
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I think MY biggest take away from this thread is everybody test, prints, and operates differently. Which I think everybody would agree on. We here at OSI will always do what works best for us. Rocky does take great pride in our product, as I am sure each and everyone of you take great pride in your profession. But this entire thread was to just share one of our testing procedures.
I believe the purpose for these forums are to learn, educate and share thought and Ideals. When we stare at the same four walls day in and day out we can sometimes get tunnel vision. Every company does something great. But if we take a little bit of all these great ideals and roll it in to what works best for you, and then apply it to your daily operations, you just made your shop better !
As the old saying goes ..
" If you always do what you always did, your always going to get what you always got ! "
Just my thoughts..
Thanks guys
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Amazing, I received a shirt from a pretty large customer who was testing multiple white inks one of them ours. He printed a logo about 10 times on the same shirt each time with a different ink. He labeled every ink on the shirt and was wondering why his test prints did not look like ours. He had no idea which ink was printed first and which one was last. As everyone here knows, if you run a print through a dryer set at 320F 10 times on a 50/50 or 100 percent poly shirt,,,, doesn't matter what ink it is it aint gonna look good. Now every thread here (including my original post) list far better ways to compare inks than the method mentioned above,,, Went south quickly after that!
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I do agree with some in that we've always needed AT LEAST a gallon of ink and run it on jobs to know what it can do, but I can get a lot from the test Rocky suggested. I test for bleed resistance all the time but I'm usually not comparing two inks at the same time, normally it's just one being tested, but I intend on doing a version of this test with some of the different mixes of ink that I come up with. It won't take the place of running the ink but I know it can help me. Whether or not it can help others is up to them, but I wouldn't totally discount it because of some of the reasons suggested. Take those suggestions into account, there is much validity there, but not so much to render that test useless...in my opinion.
I've tested more white inks than most, but it's not because we can't find one that works. I can get a one-hit white with the SF2 that performed so poorly for the few months we used it, or the high priced Wilflex stuff many on here use. I try so many white inks simply because we want to find THE BEST. We print fast (because it matters HERE), we print with so little pressure that sometimes we have to be careful because our choppers don't chop all the way, so the white ink I like has to be able to perform up to those expectations. I'm not going to lower our standards, I'm not going to lower our print speeds because then our prints wouldn't be smooth, we'd likely have to use the roller squeegee more often, and I'm certainly not going to print with more pressure. There are certain fundamentals of printing plastisol that we live by here and the reason we do the things we do, use the tools we use, is simply to make sure the ink is sitting on top of the substrate and not in it. That's it. If you're using a 230/48 for your base, no way that ink is going to go through that mesh count without using a lot of pressure. By "a lot" of pressure I mean the amount of pressure it takes to shear the ink while keeping the ink from going into the shirt. It's physics, it's math, 1+1=2 and there is nothing that is going to change that. But still shops fight that all the time and try to convince others that they can somehow get 1+1=3.
Right now we are using River City's Quick Flash white, 60%, and Rutland Tidy white at 40%. It's short, but not so short that it climbs. It shears at fast print speeds, it's very opaque, fiber matte down is good, not great. Bleed resistance is good for 50/50 but I wouldn't trust it for the bad bleeders. We use a ton of poly ink these days and OSI Production white is our choice. Price isn't ridiculous like you see with other brands' high end poly white, it is very easy to handle and it prints more like a cotton white than any other poly white I've tested, and I've tested a lot of them. OSI does have some very expensive poly whites, which perform so much better than anything else I've ever tried, but the price/performance ratio is just too far off and Production white performs so good. It has been at least 6 months since I've tested another brand of poly white, so it may be time to go through that so I can stay on top of this ever-changing industry.
I don't have the knowledge to debate a lot of the points being argued here by a few guys, but I do know which brands perform under our conditions, up to our standards and if I had to only use one brand of ink for white, I know who it would be. When it comes to the price/performance ratio there are only a few ink makers I feel that are a cut above, and most of the popular brands have very similar products and you'd have a hell of a time telling them apart. You would have no problem finding the OSI inks if they were all in unmarked buckets and that doesn't mean they are great by itself, but in addition to being different, they are also very good at what they do.
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Whats white plastisol? ;)
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Whats white plastisol? ;)
Some Words of Wisdom from "The Water Boy!"
Take care mate.
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Whats white plastisol? ;)
Haha! Nice Tony! I was waiting for that! ;D
I love me some waterbase too! Just wish I could work the magic with it you do everyday!
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Speaking of WB/DC, we finally had a customer that wanted to do it on their next job so we will be doing our first DC job since 2014. We've done somewhere around 800 jobs in between DC jobs.
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Speaking of WB/DC, we finally had a customer that wanted to do it on their next job so we will be doing our first DC job since 2014. We've done somewhere around 800 jobs in between DC jobs.
That's interesting. If I didn't tell my customers about discharge they wouldn't want it. After they get a job done with it they want it every time. Except one client. He had a big yellow circle on the front of a black shirts. We printed it with discharge because.... Well the next order was done with plastisol. The reason. When he sweats you can see the sweat in the yellow design area really easy. First, and only, customer I have ever had say they don't want discharge after they had a job done with it.
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Nobody in our area does discharge printing, so people are more used to the bright plasticy plastisol prints... it is taking a lot to educate our customers.
Back on track with the original posts . We ordered in a bucket of osi production white and will be testing it tomorrow head to head with wilflex quick white.
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We are at the point where we don't offer plastisol period. Sorry ...thread derailing
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Back on track with the original posts . We ordered in a bucket of osi production white and will be testing it tomorrow head to head with wilflex quick white.
Let us know your results. Based upon reading the TDS for each, looks like the Production White might have better bleed resist as they good BR for poly/cotton blends as well as 100% poly. Quick on the other hand is only recommended for poly/cotton blends.
Also check out the flash properties - time/temp/tack. Interested in the results. Quick states a little lower flash at 220 versus 240-260. I realize these are just numbers in a TDS, which is why I am curious. Lastly, interested in fine mesh highlight if you look at that -- maybe 280-305?
Thanks!
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I've only had one customer decide to move away from discharge as well, and it was recent. His first order, which I used discharge on, happened to be re-dyes, and he didn't want to risk it again. Doesn't really matter to me which ink people prefer, but I have had the same experience that those who order it once basically always want it again. I try to educate them when it comes to certain shirt colors and blends not working well etc. and they all have been open to changing designs accordingly or accepting plastisol just when necessary. I basically try to educate people before a job on what options there are and why I would use a particular ink or process for a particular job. Rarely do clients care that much as long as the finished product is good quality.
I guess I do always kind of hate putting huge plastisol prints on high quality blanks, but sometimes you just have to do what works best with the blend/dye color.
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On the production white flash time, it's the fastest flashing white I've ever used. It blocks bleed really well, has some puff in it but it's not as bad as the Rutland Super Poly, not even close to that. One of the biggest factors I look at when choosing a white is flash time, it's right up there with body, viscosity and taste :). If a white had superior opacity, fiber matte down and didn't climb, but had a long flash time I'd have to pass on it. I'd take an ink that wasn't as good in some areas if it had fast flash times. Having an ink that flashes quickly helps with too many other things after the flash that I think are probably overlooked by many.
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Thanks for the feedback Alan ..
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quick review...
thus far, on a 150 shirt order, we are very happy with how the Production White is running.
to set things up correctly, we run a 10c sportsman, RedChiliD flashes, S-mesh and 70/90/70 squeegees... this order was on standard Gildan 2000 shirts.
This job is a PfP, 160S mesh underbase, 225S top white... we've run this before with Quick White (unmodified), and we're running this with Production White unmodified as well.
Upon opening the bucket, this ink is definitely creamy and very easy to stir.
On press, it performed very nicely as well.
-- we had some opacity issues at first... until I sped up the squeegee to what I felt was SUPER fast, however, it was shearing nicely and the fiber-matte down is perfect... squeegee pressure was comparable to quick white at 35-40psi...
-- prints were just as smooth if not a bit smoother than the quick white...
-- flash time was definitely faster... we normally flash at 200 degrees with quick white, we were at 190 with the production white, and we could have possibly gone even less... after running about 50 shirts, we were around 2 sec for the flash time...
we're going to continue testing, but so far we really like it.
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Jvanick,
As a first time user of OSI, it looks like you had a great experience from opening the bucket till end of the production run. Always good to hear !
Thank you for sharing !
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Java nick,
You mention a 70/90/70 squeegee, do you have rubber on your pallets?
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yes, we have rubber on our pallets...
I'm really liking the 1st print and onwards quality of this ink... with our Quick White we used to have to stroke a few times to get it moving, and/or slow the squeegee down for the first few prints ... we threw a job on yesterday and the first stroke was a perfect clear, surprising actually.. it almost prints like a hybrid between waterbase and plastisol.