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screen printing => Separations => Topic started by: Itsa Little CrOoked on February 12, 2015, 07:38:40 PM
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I want him to have crisp and clean details at any distance....even at Left Chest sizes. This attachment was saved at final physical size in CS2. I started the sep and left it incomplete, deciding to post here instead. I might have spread the gold 1 pixel and printed the black last, creating a 1 pixel trap. Print the white and black as is.
DETAILS
White, Black and Gold--ALL Plastisol. Printed on Yellow 100% Cotton Tees (this time.....) Films printed direct from Photoshop, 600dpi, sepped in Layers--my preferred method for spot like this. I'd print this on the auto for sure if it were a year from now, but I'm still out of my comfort zone on stuff like this. I've tried different print orders, but the White would be WF Quick 150-48 @ 20 or 21 Newtons-Double stroked then flashed, Black then Gold both SS'd through 230 T-Mesh. Or maybe the other way around. I probably forgot some stuff.
Sometimes either the gold element in the wheat heads close in, or the black knuckles on his right hand close in. Sometimes, it's perfect. I should be able to duplicate the "perfect" by doing what I did last time, and I'll take the 5th on any poor record keeping accusations. I measure WU's smallest gold wheat head element @ 19 thousandts high or just over 4 dollar bills thickness. I've discharged WU and it's easier, but this one is plastisol.
Just by way of general screeprinting 101, somebody give me their approach to tiny spot color details like this. Print order, mesh, choke...whatever. And is butt register preferred on this itsy bitsy spot color stuff?
Thanks!
Stan
P.S. Yes. We ARE. In case you were wondering. (Licensed, that is...)
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Print order:
black ( 230)-
white (160-200)
flash
gold(200)
2 pixel spread @600 dpi on the black and gold
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Wow.
I just can't see spreading the gold. His knuckles would close up, I'm afraid. But the rest of it I can see.
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With big solid areas of ink like that we would run two flashes.
Base white
Flash
Gold
Flash
Black
White
No choke, spread, nothing like that and it would come out great
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He's only 3" across. We've printed him all different sizes, sure. But this one is little. Its just a small part of a larger design.
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Yeah we would print it the same most likely at that small size.... As long as screens are good, proper eom, press is in good shape then I don't see any issues.
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1-2 pixel trap on the white base:
1) Black through 225/230-
2) White base 150/180
Flash
3) Gold
Flash
4) Highlite white.
The black/gold/highlight white would all be but register. The white base would have a very small choke.
Easy peasy, run all day long.
When printing the black before the white base it's just like printing on a black shirt ( but with better opacity )
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Well I've got some things to consider.
First of all, I can't remember ever printing black first in 7 years. What is the advantage? I'm not calling it a bad idea. I just want to know.
And no matter how I've tried to sep this art, if its small, I walk a tight rope between the smallest gold detail spreading too much (if printed last) or the black spreading too much and covering up too much of the gold and/or making WU's knuckles too small (If black is printed last.) If the mascot is larger, no worries.
Also as per ol man's suggestion, doesn't printing black, then white with no flash between get Invite some smearing?
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I might be in the minority here but I absolutely do not like printing black in front of an underbase or flash for that matter. Maybe it's me but damn near all the blacks I've run over the years flash so much faster then any other ink that for me it has created problems. Also flashing the black I've seen draw heat from the flash down into the pallet faster creating the pallets to get hotter much faster and harder to control on long print runs. For me personally I just avoid printing black first or before flashes for those reasons. I would run that print above all on murakami s mesh 225/40 for sure though. As long as art is good, screens proper, and press settings controlled should be able to have super clean crisp prints.
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We have had similar problems with dark colors first, if you're running a crush screen ( more problems ) or triblends, forget about it.
But on this one I would probably still go black first, that text may give some troubles WOW & the pop white would clean that up nicely. I'm sure black & white last would work nicely too, if you can get the WOW to play nicely around the small text.
Murphy37
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Oh & all 225 mesh.
Murphy37
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I might be in the minority here but I absolutely do not like printing black in front of an underbase or flash for that matter. Maybe it's me but damn near all the blacks I've run over the years flash so much faster then any other ink that for me it has created problems. Also flashing the black I've seen draw heat from the flash down into the pallet faster creating the pallets to get hotter much faster and harder to control on long print runs. For me personally I just avoid printing black first or before flashes for those reasons. I would run that print above all on murakami s mesh 225/40 for sure though. As long as art is good, screens proper, and press settings controlled should be able to have super clean crisp prints.
Then we're in that minority too, we've (whether my shop of 20+ years, or the one I worked at for 18 years) was always black first, white second. Seemed kind of obvious. Not to mention I'd be in Illustrator instead of PS (love both). So black 230, white 140S, flash, gold 230. If they'll pay, then black 230, white 200, flash, gold 230, flash, highlight white 230. We printed Beck's Beer logo for years on red shirts for a local distributor, black first, white second, off the press and onto the belt.
Steve
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Hmmm Danny and Steve are both IMO world class printers and got two different methods of printing black, let's me know what works in one shop might not work for another in there shop but still get the same results. There has only been a few times that I would like to and have printed black first but the build up was a pain in the booty because I didn't flash it. I will agreed with Danny small graphics can be printed crisp and clean as long as the seps are right and you use the screens etc.
darryl
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Honestly, I switch back and forth based on the art. On something like this, it might be beneficial to do the black first to prevent it covering up detail, or it might be beneficial to print it last to help trap. I would probably print it last and through a high mesh count, choke the base 1 pixel and expand the gold and top white by 1 pixel, then trap that extra pixel with the black. That would give you a little wiggle room with registration at super small sizes, but that would depend on how dialed in your equipment is of course. If you are losing specific small details, you could change those areas specifically in the art, expanding two pixels before sepping in the way I just described. Technically they may be "different" from the larger size prints, but visually you will not notice the difference and it will preserve those specific details.
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Honestly, I switch back and forth based on the art. On something like this, it might be beneficial to do the black first to prevent it covering up detail, or it might be beneficial to print it last to help trap. <snip>
Exactly why I am going to try it this time.
This little guy is kinda cool and we always want him to look JUUUUUUST like the pic. It does't always work like that though.
Sometimes, WU is on black shirts. Sometimes on Gold (or yellow) or even Burnouts, Night Shirts, or Sweats. Sometimes he's imposed over a medallion. And every size imaginable. Sometimes, he's got the vintage distressed look. The bulk of these designs are retailed from our store, but we print for local shops too. I dislike that I can't always "hit it" with a reliable level of perfection.
I'm definitely going to shoot these planning for black down 1st. It might be the answer to repeatability. I don't know the term (embarrased) for ink spreading--the spot color equivalent to dot gain--and I don't know if there are any formulas.
But a .005 or .008 "spread" is NOTHING whatever on a large design. On this design, I chase my tail sometimes.
It's like if you're trying to vectorize poor art, and doing some hand editing of "nodes". The hardest places seem to be facial elements...like nose, eyes or lips. The hardest blocks of spot color I print are these little WU mascots. People are used to looking at him, and just like a face, a little error is INSTANTLY wrong looking.
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White ub 150s
Flash
White hl 225s
Gold 225s
Flash
Black 225s
All butt reg. The weird order is because I want the two colors that touch the least between the flashes AND because I wanna be different!
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I might be in the minority here but I absolutely do not like printing black in front of an underbase or flash for that matter. Maybe it's me but damn near all the blacks I've run over the years flash so much faster then any other ink that for me it has created problems. Also flashing the black I've seen draw heat from the flash down into the pallet faster creating the pallets to get hotter much faster and harder to control on long print runs. For me personally I just avoid printing black first or before flashes for those reasons. I would run that print above all on murakami s mesh 225/40 for sure though. As long as art is good, screens proper, and press settings controlled should be able to have super clean crisp prints.
I don't like a black first for the same reason. It looks much cleaner and richer at the end of the print.
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Hmmm Danny and Steve are both IMO world class printers and got two different methods of printing black, let's me know what works in one shop might not work for another in there shop but still get the same results. There has only been a few times that I would like to and have printed black first but the build up was a pain in the booty because I didn't flash it. I will agreed with Danny small graphics can be printed crisp and clean as long as the seps are right and you use the screens etc.
darryl
Now this is funny, I misread what Danny wrote, I thought I was agreeing with him. ;D We haven't seen those issues, which maybe just means that we haven't seen those issues because we're just missing them. (BTW Darryl, I don't put myself in that class, but thanks anyway). I originally thought the other way when I was an actual printer, but when I became the screen/R&D guy, our best printer worked that way, and the results were excellent. So when I tried it myself (I just had to know) it made sense. Really, the best way to know is to try both and compare results. You'll like it or not like it, and it may not be that big a deal either way. That being said, If I need a black halftone to print, then yes, it comes near the end.
Steve