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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: Maxie on February 06, 2015, 07:46:01 AM
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There has been a lot written lately about Murakami S mesh. I like that fact that the tension doesn't drop fast.
Do any of you have experience with other manufacturers mesh?
Saati, etc?
Is there really a big difference between the quality meshes on the market?
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I have used Murakami, Sefar, Newman, Saati, etc...and to be honest I have not found any real quality issues that weren't directly attributable to the parameters of the mesh. Things like mesh count, thread diameter, heat treatment/pressing, color, weave type, etc.
It seems counter-intuitive to me that there wouldn't be obvious winners and losers as far as quality goes...or maybe I just haven't come across any crap off-brand mesh. But, like I said, I've never really noticed anything as far as elongation, tension or durability that didn't correlate directly to the specific parameters of the mesh.
...maybe I'm just simple...
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S-Mesh is thin thread mesh which in my experience provides much better printability across the board due to its much larger open area between threads. On that front, its literally night and day from any other mesh I've used, and for most mesh counts I won't be going back to standard mesh. Ever.
The tradeoff is fragility, and if not handled correctly can really become an issue pretty fast. My shop has been on a bit of a screen popping spree recently, and I'm here today (on my day off) stretching screens to catch back up. But I'd rather do that than go back to standard mesh, which speaks of how much of a difference we've seen in our prints and production using S-Mesh. I consider it to be in a league of its own.
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I searched on the www, this is what I found
NBC 150/48 50% open
Saati 158/64 32
Newman 166/? 39
Murakami 150/48 51
Sur Lock 150/64 ?
I couldn't find a Saati mesh similar to the Murakami S mesh.
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S-mesh is amazing and it affects the quality and ease of printing on every single print on every single shirt and I would not go back. That said, I only use a few mesh counts and they are static frames, so others might see more or less improvement over whatever they are currently using and with rollers there are a few additional mesh counts available than with the statics. White plastisol and waterbased printing is where it really makes all the difference. 180S is amazing for underbasing and for larger area p/f/p white prints. 135S works great with glitters. 225S is basically the only mesh I use anymore for waterbased prints and for top whites. The only non-S-mesh I still use is 110 when I need a nice thick print, which I coat 2/2 or more with thicker emulsions, or 280 for more plastisol colors on top of a base. If they made a 280ish S mesh static I would use it instead. I have a handful of 300S statics, but they just don't work as well for top colors in my opinion.
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What is your Newton on initial stretch on a 180 using statics and S mesh?
What does it drop to after use?
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I don't have a meter, but I know others have tested, and they settle at or above 20N typically I believe.
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S-mesh is amazing and it affects the quality and ease of printing on every single print on every single shirt and I would not go back. That said, I only use a few mesh counts and they are static frames, so others might see more or less improvement over whatever they are currently using and with rollers................ 180S is amazing for underbasing and for larger area p/f/p white prints.
I agree.... I've been meaning to post a thread about 180S statics. I think I could do about 90% of my jobs with them.
180S p/f/p works great on darks, nice soft hand and good opacity.
On lighter garments, it's one hit (no dry stroke needed).
My 180S screens came in at 19n/cm and have stayed there.
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I searched on the www, this is what I found
NBC 150/48 50% open
Saati 158/64 32
Newman 166/? 39
Murakami 150/48 51
Sur Lock 150/64 ?
I couldn't find a Saati mesh similar to the Murakami S mesh.
That`s because there probably is none. The NBC mesh which is as well manufactured here in Japan is almost identically to Murakami S mesh. In almost all aspects. If you need a list with recommended tension levels for the NBC mesh I have one here, oh and it`s cheaper too.
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S-mesh is amazing and it affects the quality and ease of printing on every single print on every single shirt and I would not go back. That said, I only use a few mesh counts and they are static frames, so others might see more or less improvement over whatever they are currently using and with rollers................ 180S is amazing for underbasing and for larger area p/f/p white prints.
I agree.... I've been meaning to post a thread about 180S statics. I think I could do about 90% of my jobs with them.
180S p/f/p works great on darks, nice soft hand and good opacity.
On lighter garments, it's one hit (no dry stroke needed).
My 180S screens came in at 19n/cm and have stayed there.
180S can do a good job if hand is a concern but if 100% opacity is more important than hand we have found that we have to drop down to a 150S for p/f/p. We use S Mesh on newman mzx rollers so we keep them mid to upper 20s which after a few retensions they will stay in that range until you pop one.
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I can get 100% white on dark using 180S or 225S with p/f/p. The 225S just requires a clearing stroke, but the final hand is better :shrug: I basically use those interchangeably based on whether I am in a rush or not. For other light on darks I underbase with 180S or 225S, again interchangeably based on whether I want to do a clearing/flattening stroke, then do top colors with the 280 mesh. You choice of white will be a big factor here. Most of the whites I have tested would not do this, but One Stroke has a few that will and I use Triangle Excel as my go to white most of the time. Legacy white does a pretty decent job as well.
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In our shop one stroke on two 180s screens is not as opaque as using a lower mesh. That is typically at mid to high 20s psi and 15-20" per second. It could be that we use cheap shirts and need better mat down
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There are lots of factors that could cause the difference. I know I see better results when the ink is warmed and mixed, when the pallets are warm, when I use triple duro vs standard squeegees, when I go faster and lighter vs slow and hard, etc.
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When you use a 180 S and pop what squeegees are you using?
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S mesh here all the way, would never go back. Its that good.
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S mesh here all the way, would never go back. Its that good.
You know a lot of people say this (including us)... yet why hasn't everyone on here switched?
It's certainly a LOT cheaper than a DTS, but not even all of those guys are using S Mesh. Guess there are no tape savings. ;)
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When you use a 180 S and pop what squeegees are you using?
Most of our popped screens are happening off press, but when they do happen on press its usually due to a stupid move on our part. Misprinting a tacked pallet with no shirt on it, running over buttons/zippers (even with a notched squeegee), etc. I wouldn't say the squeegee type itself would matter much, but rounding off the corners of any squeegee is something you'll definitely want to do.
You really just have to be a bit more mindful when using them in all aspects of the screen making process. A normal bump with the corner of another screen into standard mesh usually won't do any damage, but with S-Mesh there's a good chance you'll lose it. There's a bit of a learning curve involved, but once your team gets used to being a bit more careful with screens the issues should see a steep decline. Use screen racks, don't throw them around, and treat them with a bit more respect than your average screen gets and you'll be in good shape.
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Thanks to all who commented on Murakami S Mesh. There are many differences between Murakami S Mesh and all others listed. The manufacturing process and heat setting is part of the magic of this product. The thread is unique as is the heat setting of the knuckles to maintain square openings. The true test: Seeing is believing. Hey I was a printer that used all Murakami emulsion and mesh when I did production and we didn't have S mesh back then. So check out this video from a few years back when we started marketing the S mesh. This is un modified white, we switched ink manufacturers every day of the ISS Long Beach show to answer the question "what ink is that?" the opacity comes from the mesh print quality, not the ink. I was blown away by the opacity of this print with almost no squeegee pressure. Touch the pallet and pull the squeegee! Nice to have met so many from the t-shirt boards at the ISS show. Special Shout out to Pierre for the great samples he dropped off. And to Danny for testing most of our emulsions and helping us dial in CTS. Gifts are on their way!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFShG5cWeGY&feature=plcp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFShG5cWeGY&feature=plcp)
At the end of the video and credits you will find the real reason to come to California for the Long Beach ISS show.
Al
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Thanks to all who commented on Murakami S Mesh. There are many differences between Murakami S Mesh and all others listed. The manufacturing process and heat setting is part of the magic of this product. The thread is unique as is the heat setting of the knuckles to maintain square openings. The true test: Seeing is believing. Hey I was a printer that used all Murakami emulsion and mesh when I did production and we didn't have S mesh back then. So check out this video from a few years back when we started marketing the S mesh. This is un modified white, we switched ink manufacturers every day of the ISS Long Beach show to answer the question "what ink is that?" the opacity comes from the mesh print quality, not the ink. I was blown away by the opacity of this print with almost no squeegee pressure. Touch the pallet and pull the squeegee! Nice to have met so many from the t-shirt boards at the ISS show. Special Shout out to Pierre for the great samples he dropped off. And to Danny for testing most of our emulsions and helping us dial in CTS. Gifts are on their way!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFShG5cWeGY&feature=plcp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFShG5cWeGY&feature=plcp)
At the end of the video and credits you will find the real reason to come to California for the Long Beach ISS show.
Al
I just discovered S-Mesh recently (150/48 on EZ Frames). Now, thanks to this video, I've discovered your YouTube Channel.
Thank you!
Stan
(Some of us are slower than others.)
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I'm having trouble getting S Mesh, I hear that Dynamesh (NBC) have a similar product, does anyone know which of their series compares to S Mesh?
They have a few different Meshes, UX etc.
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I'm having trouble getting S Mesh, I hear that Dynamesh (NBC) have a similar product, does anyone know which of their series compares to S Mesh?
They have a few different Meshes, UX etc.
Once I`m back at the office on monday I`ll mail you a list with all the relevant information regarding NBC mesh.
You can purchase as well mesh from us. NBC and Murakami. Even with shipping from Japan it won`t be that expensive.
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Does anyone know if mesh can be folded?
It usually comes in rolls, for easier shipping I'd like to open the rolls and fold the mesh to fix into a box.
Will this have an adverse effect on the mesh?
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Hello Maxie,
Where are you located? Here is a list of Murakami Dealers in the US, and one for the international dealers. If you do not see a dealer in your area let me know your location and either we or over seas can service your account.
http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-us-dealers/ (http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-us-dealers/)
http://murakamiscreen.com/international-dealers/ (http://murakamiscreen.com/international-dealers/)
Ideally mesh should be kept on the roll. Especially finer meshes. I take samples with me world wide folded in my luggage and it still stretches fine, but for production and moire control I recommend shipping on the tube.
Alan
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slight threadjack here -
Alan what about folding loosely in quarters? I had our screen tech cut up our bolts into ready to go screen sizes and we fold loosely and store in file/bin now. Way less floor space not having to have all the bolts somewhere, table for laying out, etc. and it's quick and easy to grab mesh for a screen. But I'll quit doing it if it's bad news.
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S mesh here all the way, would never go back. Its that good.
You know a lot of people say this (including us)... yet why hasn't everyone on here switched?
It's certainly a LOT cheaper than a DTS, but not even all of those guys are using S Mesh. Guess there are no tape savings. ;)
Could be for the same reason that you have a rule of thumb or a window of (4, 4.5, and 5) for the halftone that goes with each mesh....but some people (screen rm and art department included) don't know what standard halftone they are using let alone what one for each mesh. ;)
Could be for the same reason some people use the same exposure times for all mesh. ;)
Not everybody does "the best" thing. Those people do whats more efficient in their eyes. Same exposure time on all mesh, Same halftone dot (like 55lpi on a 110). It works somehow for them...they say. I've seen plenty of shops still in business doing it this way for 10-15 years doing it in unique ways.
They are more prosperous that I, so who am I to argue.
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I am slowly converting everything in my shop to murakami S thread. The benefits I have seen from their mesh are one of the biggest advancements I have come across. Our std squeegee pressure used to be around 40 psi using standard thread screens, now we are printing with less then 25 lbs as our std pressure. Besides special FX screens I could see us using 3 mesh counts for everything we do - 150/48, 225/40, and 305/34(murakami on all mesh) which is the direction I have been going down. I think for base plates, waterbase ink, and solid big coverage areas that the 150/48 can be a std style mesh. The reason I have not switched 100% yet is only because myself and my guys have been getting used to the difference of s mesh, how to handle it, etc....... 2 years ago I made 80 screens with s mesh and within 4 weeks I was down to around 10 screens. About 8 weeks ago I made a batch of 50 s mesh screens and so far I have only lost 1. It has taken all of us here a while to understand the difference of care with the s mesh but now that we are handling it much better we will not be looking back. Murakami s thread to me is the best advancement I have experienced in my opinion.
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I am slowly converting everything in my shop to murakami S thread. The benefits I have seen from their mesh are one of the biggest advancements I have come across. Our std squeegee pressure used to be around 40 psi using standard thread screens, now we are printing with less then 25 lbs as our std pressure. Besides special FX screens I could see us using 3 mesh counts for everything we do - 150/48, 225/40, and 305/34(murakami on all mesh) which is the direction I have been going down. I think for base plates, waterbase ink, and solid big coverage areas that the 150/48 can be a std style mesh. The reason I have not switched 100% yet is only because myself and my guys have been getting used to the difference of s mesh, how to handle it, etc....... 2 years ago I made 80 screens with s mesh and within 4 weeks I was down to around 10 screens. About 8 weeks ago I made a batch of 50 s mesh screens and so far I have only lost 1. It has taken all of us here a while to understand the difference of care with the s mesh but now that we are handling it much better we will not be looking back. Murakami s thread to me is the best advancement I have experienced in my opinion.
Congrats Danny, the issues you faced on the first try are super common I think, especially in high production, hustle it out shops. You really must change the way screens are handled before going to either super high ten or down to the lower ten, delicate thin threads. I battled with it at first, even with a small staff. Now we're much larger in size and, aside from a weird thing here or there, are screens die due to abrasion from printing eventually wearing down a thread and making a hole, not from damage and mishandling. If they aren't on a rack/cart, in a tank, a wash booth, on the roller master, on a press or very carefully rested upright somewhere safe but no more than 3 deep because you had to put there for some good reason, then somebody is not doing their job right. We use only a single layer of polyken tape to protect the areas where the mesh wraps around the roller, no mesh protectors, etc. anymore. As you already know, you made a good call giving it a second go.
Consolidation of mesh counts is maybe my favorite thing about the s mesh. You're correct, you can do nearly everything with those 3 counts. We rounded our quiver out with 130, 270 (not technically "s" but a total ass kicker of a mesh, you'll find the 225 lays down too much ink sometimes for wow printing over a plasti base so something is needed between there and the 300's), 180, 330 and they all get much use and help us dial in the prints better but we could run with just those three you mentioned if we had to. I love the 310 but we are slowly going to re-integrate it as it just didn't hold up in our old shop space so we ran the more durable 330 instead so take extra care with that one and also the 130s, they are the most fragile of them in my opinion but also some of my favorites.
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We have a lot of orders we print in white, double stroke, no flash.
At the moment we use a 110 for these. We the S type 130 or 150 have enough coverage?
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We have a lot of orders we print in white, double stroke, no flash.
At the moment we use a 110 for these. We the S type 130 or 150 have enough coverage?
I don't have the charts in front of me but I think 150s has more open area than 110.
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Here you go
150-S 51% open area
110-S 48%
120-S 60%
The 225-S at 42% is sweet too.
that`s for the Murakami mesh
NBC got similar mesh counts with open areas maybe out by 1%.
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With regards to folding the mesh. Our stock answer is it is not recommended. But as I said I have lots of folded samples that may have been stored that way for several months from a previous trip and they stretch up fine. The folding could introduce some weak spots or slight wave in the weave is my take on it. For anyone wanting to try 225/S yellow we have a ton of samples we made up to give away. Hit me up with a PM and a UPS# and I'll get some out your way. They will ship rolled up.
Al