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screen printing => Newbie => Topic started by: vwyob on October 15, 2014, 10:33:00 AM
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I am pulling my hair out with one of the guys here. He is saying this is the best print that he can pull from the e-type. We have purchased the action engineering roller and twin head squeegee (thanks guys...excellent service and product) and the other press ops have had good success with them. In fact things, on the whole, are going much better than before with most of the team on board now, regarding our goals of improving quality. But this guy keeps trying to (pardon the expression) 'pull the wool over my eyes' and digs his heels in, and in hard.
Would you be good enough to look at the pics attached. The print is fibrillated badly and, I suspect, overcooked. When the mesh does not clear of ink, his first move is to drive the squeegee further down and then whack up the air pressure in the head. No matter what we tell him. I'm at the point where i'm questioning what I am trying to tell him. He has 22 years behind him and is as stubborn as a mule (annoying because he is actually a nice guy).
Have a look and tell me whats wrong with the print and how to rectify please. He will be reading this with me should I get any replies.
Many thanks.
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That print is horrid...
When you say other guys are having success and he isn't, have you simply had one of them setup a job like this, print it, note the variables and settings at play and compared them with his method? There are quite a few things in combination that could cause something like this, but if he is the only one having a problem, he is simply doing something wrong and the others in your shop should be able to show him.
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Funny... we recently had some fibrilation issues on some 50/50's with Alan's favored One Stroke Production White and my guy has been begging me to post about it. Nothing near this bad... but certainly some issues. We had some so bad (again, not this bad) that we heat pressed the shirts after, helped a little.
Though, honestly I'm not so sure that ours is fibrilation as much as maybe just the shearing of ink is sucking and it's pulling away from the screen vs sheering and laying flat.
He took a test shirt and end up with a "high density" print from PFPFPFPF... a million times (just became funny at one point). Impressively tall and clean print (other than the spackling issue), he took pics he was so impressed with the height of the print and edge.
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Back to your issue. What squeegee duro is he using? What angle?
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Could the ink not be shearing because the screens have lost tension?
What mesh count / tension were these?
Although, like mimosa said, if everyone else is doing fine and it's just this guy...maybe seeing the others print this job compared to this guy would be a good start.
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Curious as to terms.
Since I first saw the effect, and heard the term, fibrilation occured after the fact, usually in the first wash, and usually with ring-spun cotton.
Is this fibrilation, or lack of fiber mat-down, or they one and the same?
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They are separate terms although lack of fiber mat down does indeed contribute to fibrillation.
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It is definitely poor mat down, but I think fibrillation would also apply.
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yes, I would try changing squeegee angle. You can probably stand it up (less angle) and get a cleaner print. chances are he's trying to dump too much ink down and the fibers are sticking to the screen.
is he refusing to use the tools you provide? I have zero problem with that IF and only IF they are turning out a product that meets or exceeds my standards. He is not, and he is refusing to use the one tool that is sure to fix it.
Personally, I would write him up in order to light a fire under his butt.
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Wow amazing responses thanks guys.
Mesh count was 55 (140) underbase and 90 (230) top. I am glad the terminology has been brought up as I too have been a little uncertain if this is fibrillation or mat down. Its a fibre issue. All the guys now mix the inks with a paddle/drill for 5 mins or so, but not him. The squeegee's are triple duro. Red 60/90/60 and green top 70/90/70. I took note of his angle 4 on the MHM both heads. Flood speeds on 5 and print on 6. Flood set quite light compared to the other guys, more like a WB flood and the print drop is down hard with head air pressure max'd out. Flashed until tack dry to the palm. Off contact set to 4, most here set to 2 for tee's and 3 to 4 for hoods and how tight the mesh is. All screens are measured each time they are degreased and we run to a minimum of 25 newtons on pre-stretched. Ink is Rutland and stencils coated with saati HT fast to recommended application.
He's just pulled off another print on a black hood. Red chest with the same underbase spec. I am too embarrassed to post a pic. I picked a bad week to give up beer.
I appreciate the feedback. I've said it before but this forum is invaluable to me. Its somewhere I can come and trust the collective information available.
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If he is not mixing the ink and the others are, that is probably the biggest culprit. The ink needs to be mixed and at the proper temp to clear the screen well without picking up the fibers. There has also been a lot of discussion here recently about the benefits of low pressure and high speed when it comes to printing whites, so if he is upping the pressure that could also cause issues as the ink is not sitting on top of the fibers, but is rather pushing into the shirt and thus the fibers are coming through it somewhat.
In my experience, things like higher off contact may mess with registration, but don't really matter for fibrillation. Too low can cause issues with the screen clearing properly though. I doubt it is your screens etc as the rest of your shop isn't having these problems.
Seriously, compare one of his prints with one of the other printers in your shop, or get back there, drill the ink, preheat your pallets, lower the pressure and speed up the print stroke and show the guy the immediate improvement.
edit: Honestly, it sounds like you aren't a printer and this guy at least claims he has decades of experience. I would bet he is being a dick on purpose due to some kind of resentment or lack of respect because you aren't a printer. I would bet if you went back and setup the same job and produced a better print, even marginally, after just changing a few basic variables he would react pretty pissy or call it dumb luck, BUT you would at least be able to say "you're doing it wrong, I know it and you know it, and if you refuse to do it right I will find someone else who will."
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He's just pulled off another print on a black hood. Red chest with the same underbase spec. I am too embarrassed to post a pic. I picked a bad week to give up beer.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/654c7721e2/i-picked-the-wrong-week-to-quit-from-airplanefan (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/654c7721e2/i-picked-the-wrong-week-to-quit-from-airplanefan)
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we have a 5 gallon pail of white on the mixer all the time, with the shop getting colder in the mornings we notice something like what your getting more. Simply because we want to get going and the print looked great the day before. It can take a few shirts to get thing flowing better. As a normal practice if we are going over a few days we card the white ink out of the screens and put fresh mixed ink in the morning.
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also for the white , on a day when its running excellent take a temp gun and get the tenp of the ink in the bucket, then on a day when its not take the same temp readings.it will help a lot.
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Flood speeds on 5 and print on 6. Flood set quite light compared to the other guys, more like a WB flood and the print drop is down hard with head air pressure max'd out.
I got rid of a guy who thought prints like this were OK to pull off the press.
not enough flood pressure to get the ink INTO the stencil and then to fast of a print speed to get the ink out of the screen will pull the fibers up as the screen lifts. As you see, printers think adding more pressure is always the answer.. ::) I had to take the adjustment knobs off the press for a week to get my guys to stop adding pressure.
This guy has no clue what the job function of a flood bar not what a squeegee is supposed to do. All he's been doing for 22 years is going through the motions.
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Yep, what John said.
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this guy needs to eat some humble pie and learn from you and your crew. If everyone else can print well with your equipment, the only variable here is him. If he's been pulling prints like this off of presses for 22 years, geessus....
he has two options if it were me - shut your mouth and learn to do it right, or keep doing it this way but at somebody else's shop.
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Aside from the print, you have a problem with that employee. 22, 33 or 44 years experience doesn't mean crap! What if it was 22 years of BAD experience, which is VERY possible in this industry... If your other employees can pull off a good print and he can't, sounds like he needs to unload for them and shadow them and get some new good experience...
I know it is much easier for me to type this than it is for you to implement or enforce it.
Just my .02
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Again, many thanks.
We are going to have a chat with him. There is a young lad here on the sportsman pulling off some very nice work recently and its all because he is absorbing knowledge taken from this forum.
You are correct that my background is not in screen print. I am from a litho print background; brochures, magazines etc (dare i say it, over 25 years)... but I know when someone is taking me for a fool.
He is not a nasty POS just stuck in his ways, as I said before a decent guy. I'm going to let the dust settle and then sit down with him to read your replies.
Cheers
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I am pulling my hair out with one of the guys here. He is saying this is the best print that he can pull from the e-type. We have purchased the action engineering roller and twin head squeegee (thanks guys...excellent service and product) and the other press ops have had good success with them. In fact things, on the whole, are going much better than before with most of the team on board now, regarding our goals of improving quality. But this guy keeps trying to (pardon the expression) 'pull the wool over my eyes' and digs his heels in, and in hard.
Would you be good enough to look at the pics attached. The print is fibrillated badly and, I suspect, overcooked. When the mesh does not clear of ink, his first move is to drive the squeegee further down and then whack up the air pressure in the head. No matter what we tell him. I'm at the point where i'm questioning what I am trying to tell him. He has 22 years behind him and is as stubborn as a mule (annoying because he is actually a nice guy).
Have a look and tell me whats wrong with the print and how to rectify please. He will be reading this with me should I get any replies.
Many thanks.
I have an e-type and I have never printed like that. It looks really funny. What squeegees are you using? On a MHM you have to use softer squeegees because your printing on hard (non rubber topped) pallets. In fact I learned a ton from trying to use a 50 duro squeegee. It gives alot of feed back on how hard you are printing. If your too hard (to much air pressure) that squeegee will just bend over.
Here is some settings that I use for white .
Squeegee 65/90/65 sometimes 55/90/55 but for whites I find them too soft (waterbase I use softer singles or special squeegees)
air pressure set to 2-4 bars (4 when getting started and drop it down as the ink gets worked up)
Flood speed as fast as you can ( this helps keep the ink flowing well. I have my floods set to about 5 when getting started and then up to 10 after the ink is flowing. I also soft flood, fast soft flood)
Print speed 3-8 is normal for white, top colors I can run them full speed once the inks are worked up.
Flood angle i use wings so they are set to zero, If I use a standard I like to have it on 3
Squeegee angle 3-6 depending on detail
off contact usually very low on off contact. 1/32 to 1/8th
Cylinder Height This is a hard one. Since each press is set different. I use this for fine tuning. If your pressure is doing ok but you want just a little more ink laydown you can adjust the height up just a little. Setting this part of the press right will make your life much easier. There is settings from -5, 0 then up to +5. My press is set so +5 is just touching the pallet or maybe even a little off the pallet (for fleece and thicker items.) When printing with ink that is flowing well I am in the positive 3 to 5 numbers.
tension all my screens in the shop are 25n to 30n
Your goal is always print softer and faster.
Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. Learn your press with basic stuff. Get a feel for what your press needs when something is going wrong. You do this and you can print any ink with any combination of variables. After that you can use these items to even further your skills and even further your ability to use your press. They are good tools and will improve your prints. Just spend some time dialing in your press and lean how to control it.
Good luck. It took me a long time before I could print a perfect white print on my press. Now I can do it every time.
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Jon I am SO grateful for the info. Always great to hear from e-type owners in particular.
This morning I have a chat with him and jumped on the machine to go back to the fundamentals that you guys have kindly given. We have started to make some progress. Although not a perfect print, it is a lot better than we had yesterday. He has been receptive and absorbed a fair bit of information. Lets hope its the first step in the right direction. No doubt I shall continue to plague you with questions in the 'Newbie" section, please bear with me. I find the whole process fascinating and I am hell bent on taking things to a much higher level eventually. We'll get there. Its just a case of when.
This is what he pulled off this morning.
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Improved, but still not there. It still looks like the ink is having mat down issues (needs to be stirred/heated up or have variables adjusted on the press) and is being printed too hard.
I know you are doing jobs and they need to get out the door and make you money, but I think it would be worth it in the long run to step away from production and spend a day testing. The job you posted originally is a good test due to the simplicity and the fact that it has white and a color that highlights any issues. Go wild on your variables, but adjust one at a time. Use jon's post as a starting point.
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I agree with you completely. Ironically I have managed to get him in over this coming weekend to do just this. :)
A part of the problem is the mesh clearing. They all refer to the cylinder or squeegee height as the pressure i.e " the screen won't clear so we apply more pressure" But what they are doing is lowering the squeegee via the cylinders. I was under the impression that the squeegee height/drop is a different entity. The 'pressure' is actually the air pressure with its knob and gauge on the side of any given head? These are set at 6 on all heads. Is this the case? Similar to the sportsman, with its air pressure on the front of the heads, again with gauge. I thought that the cylinders dictated the height or drop of the squeegee and the air pressure was how much force is applied to keep it in that lowest position during the print stroke. If you guys could clarify that would be great please.
If this is actually the case, then why is the air pressure adjustable? Surely you would just need a constant and strong enough pressure to ensure the squeegee reaches its lowest point regardless of adverse resistance i.e viscosity of ink or mesh tension. Again any guidance is gratefully received.
I have tried to explain to him that clearing the mesh is not just lowering the squeegee, all that achieves is driving the ink further into the garment. Its like a quick yet counter intuitive fix. Yes it clears the mesh but the print is crap. I am going to send of a batch of screens for re-meshing at a higher tension. His off contact today on the white is 6mm. Usually its at 4mm.
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I do not miss plastisol ;)
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First smile I've had today lol. Cheers buddy ;D
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my understanding with the stroke length adjustments is that IF you're using your pressure control correctly, you want your stroke stops to be adjusted to the point that they're not affecting the length of the chop at all.
We were running a job yesterday with approx 25 psi with Wilflex Quick White and getting great prints with great opacity. (160 Smesh, 70/90/70 squeegee, fast print stroke (no idea really how fast or what # as it's an all air press). Our print chopper stops are set basically all the way at the top.
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Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. L
Have to strongly disagree with this.
They are all tools of the trade that when used correctly, compliment what you're doing right.
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Crazy that this thread popped up. We hadn't had any issues like this for a long time. Last night, little 30 peice job, verrrrrrry mysteriously had 6 shirts mid job come out of the dryer all fibb'd up. Crazy that only 6 mid way, the only thing I can think is that they were just some fuzzy shirts, but man I hate the way that looks and since it was a rush and we didn't have enough replacements for those 6, we tossed them all on the heat press, that makes them all look nice of course, but weird stuff man!!! Funny thing also the design was a pink penguin so the fuzzy body of the penguin had us crackin up. Good thing it was a small order and the heat press worked it out. I can only imagine, bigger press, extra flash near the end with a roller squeegee and teflon bottom'd screen would give that same satin finish. Any of you guys doing that technique?
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Could you have dropped the mesh count down on the underbase? Seems like it would be easier to clear the mesh.
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Cylinders height is not pressure but the two do work together in some way. Think about the press as a very strong employee. You need to get that employee to use a soft touch. The press goes from zero to 10 bars on the air pressure per head. 6 bars is like 90 pounds of pressure. That is way to much. No normal employee can print with that much pressure. I never go over 4 bars. Most of the time I'm in the 2-3 range. Clearing the screen is the goal. If your using to much pressure the other adjustments, squeegee angle, squeegee duro, print speed will do nothing. The inks flow is the first thing to get right. If the ink is thick and sticky it will never clear the screen. Mixing the ink helps but getting heat into the ink does better. A warm ink will flow well after just a few print stokes. Speed of the print is over looked at most shops. Everyone thinks white ink needs to be printed slow and hard. Speed will help with clearing the screen. You can't speed up until the ink is flowing well. Getting all the setting right takes time but once you do the press will print better and be eisier to use.
That new print is night and day to the first one. Keep at it you will get it
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Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. L
Have to strongly disagree with this.
They are all tools of the trade that when used correctly, compliment what you're doing right.
I strongly feel you did not read what I wrote about these items. They are not the solution to the problem. They only aid to cover up the problem by increasing the ability of the press. The problem with that is you dont learn your press. this only stunts how good your prints can be. Take a bad print and use these tools and it becomes an ok print. Take a great print and use them and you become an award winner.
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Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. L
Have to strongly disagree with this.
They are all tools of the trade that when used correctly, compliment what you're doing right.
I strongly feel you did not read what I wrote about these items. They are not the solution to the problem. They only aid to cover up the problem by increasing the ability of the press. The problem with that is you dont learn your press. this only stunts how good your prints can be. Take a bad print and use these tools and it becomes an ok print. Take a great print and use them and you become an award winner.
I disagreed with you at first.
But that makes sense, you want to make sure you are doing everything right first. Good point.
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Ok I came in over the weekend and had some test time on the machine myself. It was great to put a load of information to the test and see how things can come together.
Again, still not perfect but an improvement. Ive had a chat with the guy (Mr 20 years) here and I'm hoping he will take this onboard. I've managed to mat down the fibres a little better and have learned the balance of air pressure and drop amongst much more. Thank you so much for your help.
Crits would be good thanks
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Blowing it up further and there are tiny random holes in the top color revealing the underbase. It almost looks like its repelled the orange. Few and far between but there nonetheless. Is this an underbase issue?
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That could be from overflashing the underbase, or due to some variable with the top color causing it to not clear the screen properly.
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Ok cheers buddy. Will look into it.
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Blowing it up further and there are tiny random holes in the top color revealing the underbase. It almost looks like its repelled the orange. Few and far between but there nonetheless. Is this an underbase issue?
There are two big things that can cause that and a few minor. The first of the major reasons: It can be a fiber with ink on it sticking up past what the top color could cover. Second major: The top color didn't clear of ink completely. With a loupe you can find out which one it is and then deduct how to remedy the issue. When you look at it closely with the loupe, obviously if it's a "crater" type spot the top color just didn't put down ink in that spot due to a number of different reasons, perhaps a lint booger on the orange stencil or something else obstructing the ink, or simply a bad print stroke that left micro traces of un-deposited ink. You can see those spots on prints that have a very rough underbase laid down along with a high mesh count used for the top color that just doesn't deposit enough ink to cover the peaks/valleys of the rough base print. If it's a very small spot you can add a few degrees of angle to your top color and deposit slightly more ink and it will cover, or you can do things to smooth out the base print. We could chase the rabbit down this hole for hours on how to accomplish all of that but you guys look like you've got a handle on all of that and can fix that with minor changes on press most likely. It wouldn't take a drastic change in procedure or mesh count selection from what I see here, it's not a major flaw.
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Alan covered the whole spectrum of problems that could have caused this. (nice post Alan)
The only time I see that is a under flashed underbase or a too soft stroke on the top color.
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Rough underbase can cause it as well, and overflashing can cause the puff to do funny things in white bases sometimes causing a rough base. Used to happen to me pretty regularly.
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best way to get past the over/under flashing is to get a M&R Red Chili D Quartz flash... it has a temperature sensor that works awesome... set the flash to 200-205 degrees (or whatever your particular ink brand and color gels at), and regardless if it's the first flash, or after things get up to temperature, you'll flash the perfect amount every time.
we love ours and are getting rid of the rest of our flash units due to it.
In the past, overflashing seems to have caused the most amount of troubles with prints like that for us... once we got a handle on our flashing, those little 'specs' went away.
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best way to get past the over/under flashing is to get a M&R Red Chili D Quartz flash... it has a temperature sensor that works awesome... set the flash to 200-205 degrees (or whatever your particular ink brand and color gels at), and regardless if it's the first flash, or after things get up to temperature, you'll flash the perfect amount every time.
we love ours and are getting rid of the rest of our flash units due to it.
In the past, overflashing seems to have caused the most amount of troubles with prints like that for us... once we got a handle on our flashing, those little 'specs' went away.
Didn't take you long till your balls changed colors. ;p
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best tools for the job... ;) I've had the Chili D for a few months now... with all the performance wear we've been printing on lately, it makes a huge difference.
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it has a temperature sensor that works awesome...
We have this feature on our MHM flashes and man is it awesome! However the placement of the sensor isn't very left chest or small print size friendly and we have to go back to time flash vs temp.
I'm not sure of the placement of the sensor on their units so be conscious of that and where the ink is on the shirt. If the sensor only reads the shirt surface, you'll be in for a big surprise the first time you print 'out of the zone' i call it.
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Years ago I had a guy print 40 hoodies with a simple white print and he had the base screen set at a silly low pressure so it just frosted the fuzz on the hoodies, then flashed it to pretty much full cure and dropped a pretty heavy top white on top, the finished product had a raised texture that resembled the image being cut out of 1/8 coarse white scotchbrite and glued on the shirt. It was the damnedest thing I've ever seen, to top it off the customer even liked it and took the product.
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Blowing it up further and there are tiny random holes in the top color revealing the underbase. It almost looks like its repelled the orange. Few and far between but there nonetheless. Is this an underbase issue?
There are two big things that can cause that and a few minor. The first of the major reasons: It can be a fiber with ink on it sticking up past what the top color could cover. Second major: The top color didn't clear of ink completely. With a loupe you can find out which one it is and then deduct how to remedy the issue. When you look at it closely with the loupe, obviously if it's a "crater" type spot the top color just didn't put down ink in that spot due to a number of different reasons, perhaps a lint booger on the orange stencil or something else obstructing the ink, or simply a bad print stroke that left micro traces of un-deposited ink. You can see those spots on prints that have a very rough underbase laid down along with a high mesh count used for the top color that just doesn't deposit enough ink to cover the peaks/valleys of the rough base print. If it's a very small spot you can add a few degrees of angle to your top color and deposit slightly more ink and it will cover, or you can do things to smooth out the base print. We could chase the rabbit down this hole for hours on how to accomplish all of that but you guys look like you've got a handle on all of that and can fix that with minor changes on press most likely. It wouldn't take a drastic change in procedure or mesh count selection from what I see here, it's not a major flaw.
Excellent post. Thanks Alan. Makes complete sense.
In fact thanks to all. I'm now on here 2-3 times a day reading up.
One of the photography forums I hit has a little thanks button. I always feel I should thank you for your replies but I end up bumping the thread, the button prevents it. I am exceedingly grateful for the help.
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it has a temperature sensor that works awesome...
We have this feature on our MHM flashes and man is it awesome! However the placement of the sensor isn't very left chest or small print size friendly and we have to go back to time flash vs temp.
I'm not sure of the placement of the sensor on their units so be conscious of that and where the ink is on the shirt. If the sensor only reads the shirt surface, you'll be in for a big surprise the first time you print 'out of the zone' i call it.
the sensor is towards the middle of the flash, however
we still use the temperature sensor even for left chest or small prints, we just adjust the temp up so that the shirt temp gets to the point where the ink is cured. Not sure if it's the 'right' way to do it or not, but it works for us in our shop.