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screen printing => Newbie => Topic started by: Gilligan on August 25, 2011, 02:10:17 AM
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I have been having some issues.
I have it working now but I'd rather the process be easier.
When I pull the squeegee, I'm not getting a good "clearing" of the screen. I notice where the ink deposit isn't very strong there is still ink in the mesh. Making me have to lay down some HEAVY ink.
I'm also having the issue of topic... after lifting the screen I end up with a shadow. I think what is happening there is that as I flood the screen I'm putting some ink down. I'm having issues flooding the screen obviously. It just doesn't feel right.
So, what I started doing which has "resolved" the problem is push strokes and not flooding the screen unless I pick it up off the shirt first.
So I'm guessing my problem is off contact. I am achieving my off contact by taping nickels to the screen at the four corners of the platen.
Is this not good enough or am I barking up the wrong tree?
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So I'm guessing my problem is off contact. I am achieving my off contact by taping nickels to the screen at the four corners of the platen.
If you have wood or aluminum screens with low tension mesh you may need to raise off-contact as much as 1/4" to get the screen to clear.
95% of all your print related problems can be resolved with screen tension, at a minumum mid 20's, using the glisten method of coating (front page) and increasing your exposure times.
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When I pull the squeegee, I'm not getting a good "clearing" of the screen. I notice where the ink deposit isn't very strong there is still ink in the mesh. Making me have to lay down some HEAVY ink.
Squeegee angle and pressure... ink in the mesh is often a lack of pressure, seeing that odd quote “kiss the shirt with ink” is difficult for manual printers because it makes us think of butterflies and fuzzy bunnies - look at the pressure, speed and angles used on an automatic and the invisible unicorn of “kissing the shirt” starts to make you wonder how it ever came about it just does not fit. Now digging in and laying lots of excessive pressure is also not the key and sadly for new people the best printing pressure, speed and angle change when the ink viscosity changes.
after lifting the screen I end up with a shadow. I think what is happening there is that as I flood the screen I'm putting some ink down. I'm having issues flooding the screen obviously. It just doesn't feel right.
Could be you identified the problem also the phenomenon of “mesh rolling” caused by less than correctly tensioned / low tension mesh can cause.
So, what I started doing which has "resolved" the problem is push strokes and not flooding the screen unless I pick it up off the shirt first.
Diamondback L (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SyFG3OExgc#ws)
The above is a youtube video of an automatic from MR showing the print and flood cycle up close - note that the flood happens after the substrate (on the platen) drops out of the way - flooding happens off the substrate, this is normal. Touch the substrate with the flood and a transfer of ink can happen.
So I'm guessing my problem is off contact. I am achieving my off contact by taping nickels to the screen at the four corners of the platen.
Coins? is your press not capable of holding off-contact?
Is this not good enough or am I barking up the wrong tree?
More ideas are sure to come - have you considered making an video and posting a link in this thread to show the problems and how you are printing?
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If you have wood or aluminum screens with low tension mesh you may need to raise off-contact as much as 1/4" to get the screen to clear.
95% of all your print related problems can be resolved with screen tension, at a minumum mid 20's, using the glisten method of coating (front page) and increasing your exposure times.
I thought of that also and that may very well be the case... BUT... this is a FRESH Pocono Screen (from flynbrian on ebay)... granted it is wooden frame and has been sitting in a box for at least 6 months (probably closer to a year.)
I am getting a drum tension meter in soon (another ebay) and that should give me a clue. I know it's not "proper" but at $30 bucks vs $200+ hands down a good alternative... plus it was get an "idea" now or get the real deal in 4 years or something when I can justify that sort of purchase. :)
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Sounds like you're flooding the screen with it resting on the shirt? You need to flood the screen off the shirt.
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Douglas... very thorough reply... I'll do my best to keep up with mine. :)
Squeegee angle and pressure:
I Tried different things here... my wife wanted to try some and she just couldn't get enough ink down to save her life... frustrated her and hurt her fingers trying to push harder and harder. Push stroke still gave her issues but I think that was because she wasn't "on top of it enough" There was a definite different in the ink left behind on the top of the screen after she pulled/pushed than when I did it (push strokes were almost squeeky clean, hers almost looked like a flood stroke :) ).
So basically we tried soft (unintentional) and hard and I varied the angles... but paid as much attention as I could to mimic what I have seen in videos and at my buddy's shop. I have also watched his Brown Semi auto up close and paid attention to how it runs realizing that it was probably the optimal stroke given it was done by a machine. :)
mesh rolling
I thought about this myself... they are static wood frames... but they are quality ones (see above post). Only thing that kept me saying that it can't be my screens is that my buddy's shop still uses static wood frames (larger ones, which I would imagine exaggerate screen tension issues).
Plus it seems that push stroke with no flood while screen was down seemed to have produced some sharp results.
Coins
LOL... simple answer is "what press".
Long answer is thousands of words (see pics attached, don't laugh)
Video
That is the first thing I thought about doing... but I couldn't be bothered with grabbing that tripod out from under my curing table and grabbing a flip camera... but seriously, I was just looking to get done with this job. If I would have videoed it would have just given me a reason to stop for the night and I just wanted to push through and get the job done. 110 shirts printed... transfers on about 24 so far. :)
BTW, this is a paying gig, BUT it is for a friend's convention so she is understanding of the few hiccups we may have and I have spares if some don't cut the mustard.
Pics
Don't laugh... I don't really have a lot of room to work with right now and this setup will get me by. The main intention is to use this press in a "youtees" style. The screens register to the platen with some "set screw" type of setup and you just pull them off to change colors vs rotating. Obviously this slows down production but as I don't have a conveyor there is a bottle neck to speed right there. Plus this system is said to have tighter registration then a cheap rinky dink carousel press. But I'm already longing for a conveyor dryer as this job was a two step cure due to the size of the print and I would have been printing almost twice as fast if I had a conveyor.
This whole process is teaching me a LOT... it's also causing me to really pay attention to each print and I worry that I would get in a rhythm and miss some things... like I got a pin hole (for those that know my stencil method, don't ask :p ) I caught it on the 2nd shirt (granted it was getting progressively worse).
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Oh and yes, those are small bungee cords on furniture clamps helping keep my screen up and out of the way... MUCH better than the first way I was doing it (all manual).
This is mostly prototyping to see how well those attachment points work on the screen and such. If I put those "micro tuners" on the screens then they may just attach to those when used in a single color job and I won't have a need to add another screw to the screen.
That being said... this setup never really got in the way at all and I am lazy. :)
Pic of someone else's but essentially the same micro tuners.
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If you are getting a fuzzy edge when you do both a flood and print stroke that tells me either you are flooding much to hard and actually squeezing ink through the stencil or that you are flooding the screen and slightly contacting the shirt while doing so, if thats the case the flood is acting like a print stroke but in one direction then the actual print stroke is going the opposite direction creating the fuzzy edges. Simply make sure you are lifting the screen high enough off the platen before you flood and only flood enough to fill the mesh in. In fact take the time to flood and look under the screen and see if ink is being pushed past the stencil, if so lighten it up some. Amazingly once you get it figured out once it will be like riding a bike for you.
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What mesh count are you using? I did not see that in the post. All of the above could be the issue. If your having trouble clearing the mesh and having to smash the crap out of it that can also give you a halo because now your smashing the ink out of the image area. Its just one more variable to think about.
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I'd figure out another way of achieving off contact as well.
Coins hitting the mesh is going to do some weird stuff to your
mesh tension/off contact dynamic. Try shims under the screen in the clamps,
and a shim on the screen where it hits the top of the platen. (if it does)
Valiant first effort and better than my original attempts. I just used to hold
the screen in place and hope for the best. Even printed on my bedroom walls that
way.
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What mesh count are you using? I did not see that in the post. All of the above could be the issue. If your having trouble clearing the mesh and having to smash the squat out of it that can also give you a halo because now your smashing the ink out of the image area. Its just one more variable to think about.
Sorry, it was discussed in another thread. 158 mesh is what I'm using... it's the highest I got.
Amazingly once you get it figured out once it will be like riding a bike for you.
Yes, I know... I went by my buddy's shop to use his spot gun and talked to his printers for a couple of hours today. Watched him set up and print a job not much different than mine except that it was a much bigger area of ink. I was quite envious of the results. Even my good prints had such inconsistent and thick ink deposits. His was nice thin and crisp.
But... his press had a LOT of off contact... at least a 1/4 of an inch... even he said that one has a crazy amount of off contact.
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his press had a LOT of off contact... at least a 1/4 of an inch... even he said that one has a crazy amount of off contact.
The lower the tension of the mesh the higher you are forced to compensate with off-contact, enough to cause the image to come out of the original shape and size.
BTW I am not about to laugh, we all started somewhere, some of your problems revolve around your equipment limitations.
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What are you using to make stencil? Do you still use vinyl?
That might be one of the reasons.
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Try some shims under your hinges on the two by four to control the hiegth in the rear of your screen and tape some washers to the screen frame in the front mkeing sure they'll hit the neck area of the platten ,not the shirt and keep the shims off of the screen mesh. The other thing I see in your pics if your getting ghost image this suggests side to side movement bolt or screw some wood on either side of sceen probably two thirds of the distance from the hinges, just kiss the screen frame use these as your registration gate. And for what its worth i like your press that pretty neat.
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Yes, I'm using vinyl... sticking it to the bottom of the screen (shirt side). How do you think that is causing me problems? I'm not second guessing you, I've just read of a lot of people using it successfully... now one guy's "success" might not be equal to your's or mine, hence why I'm here. The vinyl has a Film Thickness of 2.8 mil. So I'm creating a gasket effect with that like emulsion would. Once I stopped flooding the screen while down, the images sharpened up (at least the edges).
Virgil427, Yeah... the press is pretty Ghetto-rific! :) I can't say for certain but I'm pretty sure I'm not getting any side to side movement... but I'll check when I get back home. That 2x4 contraption is liquid nailed AND screwed together by 5 screws (of two different lengths)... that part is beyond solid. I'm holding it to the press via screw type furniture clamps and they don't budge either but that would probably be the weakest link. Well that and any slop in those jiffy hinges, but they are fairly tight.
But I am interested in your registration gate, but I'm not following what you mean.
For what it's worth... I have looked at the shirts with a fresh set of eyes and I feel like the flooding was my problem with the shadow print... as the ones that I did later did not have this issue. My main beef with the prints as they stand now is consistency in ink deposits... mine are all over and generally too "thick" but with out the thickness I was missing spots. I think this was due to too little off contact exacerbated by a low tensioned screen.
I have another job of white on navy coming up this weekend with a few hoodies added to that. I will see what I can do with that. Speaking of, anything I should watch out for adding hoodies into the mix. Obviously off contact will need to be raised... anything else? What about curing under my flash? Stick with the same as I have been doing (compensating for thickness?)
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Yes, I'm using vinyl... sticking it to the bottom of the screen (shirt side). How do you think that is causing me problems? I'm not second guessing you, I've just read of a lot of people using it successfully... now one guy's "success" might not be equal to your's or mine, hence why I'm here. The vinyl has a Film Thickness of 2.8 mil. So I'm creating a gasket effect with that like emulsion would. Once I stopped flooding the screen while down, the images sharpened up (at least the edges).
I have never used vinyl for stencil, but my thinking id that maybe vinyl adhesive could have something to do with the fuzzy edges (might be a stupid thing to say, but for some reason I think that might be the issue). Maybe the ink gets "stuck" to the adhesive and that is what makes the print fuzzy.
How about squeegee pressure. If you push too much that might cause fuzzy print too.
That is my thinking, it might be stupid thing to say, but not much experience here with vinyl.
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differences with hoodies;
May need more pressure or more strokes. (in a perfect world, I'd go a little coarser in mesh choice on a fleece-exclusive job).
You will need more stickum more often (btw what do you use?)
Hoodies will probably be a poly blend so make sure to use a low bleed ink. Now, whether you can carefully monitor the heat carefully enough to both get cure and not get dye migration could be another issue. As you may have read, low bleed inks on 50/50 don't want to get above 340, to reduce likelihood of the shirt's poly dyes sublimating into white ink.
To make matters worse, it sometimes does not appear for a week or more.
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Gilligan its the hinges i'd worry about , if theres .017 of slop at the hinge over a 24 inch screen you cuold be looking at over 3/8 of an inch offset, now this is exagerrated. But if you put a piece of wood either side of your screen 18 in. out from your hinges just touching the sides of your screen this will take care of side to side registration. If your getting ghost image from ink while your flooding it should be on the bottom of your gasket that would be easy to see thats either from your gasket or from to much pressure on print stroke amd you'll see ink around the edges of your gasket this is why i thought of side movement it wouldn't take much I'd like to see a pic of a shirt if possible. As far as not clearing screen play with location of shims and thickness and keep the front and rear of screen the same. Ive only been doing this for just over a year myself and come from a mechanical and fabricating background thats why I love your press .It's the "I'm not gonna buy what I can build mentallity' i love it
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Yes, I'm using vinyl... sticking it to the bottom of the screen (shirt side). How do you think that is causing me problems? I'm not second guessing you, I've just read of a lot of people using it successfully... now one guy's "success" might not be equal to your's or mine, hence why I'm here. The vinyl has a Film Thickness of 2.8 mil. So I'm creating a gasket effect with that like emulsion would. Once I stopped flooding the screen while down, the images sharpened up (at least the edges).
Virgil427, Yeah... the press is pretty Ghetto-rific! :) I can't say for certain but I'm pretty sure I'm not getting any side to side movement... but I'll check when I get back home. That 2x4 contraption is liquid nailed AND screwed together by 5 screws (of two different lengths)... that part is beyond solid. I'm holding it to the press via screw type furniture clamps and they don't budge either but that would probably be the weakest link. Well that and any slop in those jiffy hinges, but they are fairly tight.
But I am interested in your registration gate, but I'm not following what you mean.
For what it's worth... I have looked at the shirts with a fresh set of eyes and I feel like the flooding was my problem with the shadow print... as the ones that I did later did not have this issue. My main beef with the prints as they stand now is consistency in ink deposits... mine are all over and generally too "thick" but with out the thickness I was missing spots. I think this was due to too little off contact exacerbated by a low tensioned screen.
I have another job of white on navy coming up this weekend with a few hoodies added to that. I will see what I can do with that. Speaking of, anything I should watch out for adding hoodies into the mix. Obviously off contact will need to be raised... anything else? What about curing under my flash? Stick with the same as I have been doing (compensating for thickness?)
Vinyl as a stencil, how things change or increase with information, this also could be a big problem.
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Yes, I'm using vinyl... sticking it to the bottom of the screen (shirt side). How do you think that is causing me problems? I'm not second guessing you, I've just read of a lot of people using it successfully... now one guy's "success" might not be equal to your's or mine, hence why I'm here. The vinyl has a Film Thickness of 2.8 mil. So I'm creating a gasket effect with that like emulsion would.
Vinyl as a stencil, how things change or increase with information, this also could be a big problem.
It's true, some of these methods that are not uncommon on T-Shirt Forums and YouTube are alien to me, and I used to pride myself in helping folks use "non-traditional" diy processes.
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Frog... I use Textac... from what I had read it seemed like the best way to go, so I figured I'd start out the right way (even if I'm using vinyl as a stencil on a ghetto-fabulous press ;) )
This 50/50 thing has me nervous now. They are navy shirts with white print. *gulp* Luckily I only have about 36 to do but that is front and back. About 16 are hoodies. Boy, this curing thing is getting trickier and trickier.
Speaking of the adhesive and the ink. I scrapped out the ink and left the screen sitting for a day or two. Wow... what a mess. Now I know why my buddy hates tape on the shirt side so much.
Any advice on getting that gunk out? I used some ER2 and a pressure washer but I still have a bit left and I don't know if it will matter... looks like bad hazing.
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Yes, I'm using vinyl... sticking it to the bottom of the screen (shirt side). How do you think that is causing me problems? I'm not second guessing you, I've just read of a lot of people using it successfully... now one guy's "success" might not be equal to your's or mine, hence why I'm here. The vinyl has a Film Thickness of 2.8 mil. So I'm creating a gasket effect with that like emulsion would.
Vinyl as a stencil, how things change or increase with information, this also could be a big problem.
It's true, some of these methods that are not uncommon on T-Shirt Forums and YouTube are alien to me, and I used to pride myself in helping folks use "non-traditional" diy processes.
In a way it is like having to be tech support for an inkjet printer and you start working on a problem you think you can fix and then the customer tells you he poured house-paint into the ink cartridges... distance support can often be an exercise in detecting all of the relevant information.
Frying pan to fire comes to mind.
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This just made me remember many ongoing exchanges on TSPMB, where obviously, I posted to newbies a lot. T-Shirt forums must see this even more.
Though not rocket science, the screen printing road has bumps, small but steepish learning curves, at various stages, for various required processes.
Some, whether by financial necessity or merely masochistic tendencies, choose to make those bumps deeper and those curves steeper,
and still, look to cut corners and/or question tried and true procedures before even trying and mastering them and judging their merits.
This is not specifically meant for you, little buddy, but true is true.
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This just made me remember many ongoing exchanges on TSPMB, where obviously, I posted to newbies a lot. T-Shirt forums must see this even more.
Though not rocket science, the screen printing road has bumps, small but steepish learning curves, at various stages, for various required processes.
Some, whether by financial necessity or merely masochistic tendencies, choose to make those bumps deeper and those curves steeper,
and still, look to cut corners and/or question tried and true procedures before even trying and mastering them and judging their merits.
This is not specifically meant for you, little buddy, but true is true.
Very true, I think my point was more aimed at the problem we have providing advice or support and just not getting all the information we need to do any good for that person. We make a lot of assumptions and then from time to time we get blindsided.
As far as screens, you can take black cut vinyl film and then use it as a positive to make a photo stencil exposure, the results will be significantly improved without an excessive expenditure.
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As far as screens, you can take black cut vinyl film and then use it as a positive to make a photo stencil exposure, the results will be significantly improved without an excessive expenditure.
This, however, is a situation where the newbie printer has access to cad cut adhesive vinyl, but apparently not emulsion, capillary film, or exposure unit, or rinse-out booth.
I have suggested looking into Ulano knife cut film, which of course, is the same basic method, but with screen print compatible materials.
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As far as screens, you can take black cut vinyl film and then use it as a positive to make a photo stencil exposure, the results will be significantly improved without an excessive expenditure.
This, however, is a situation where the newbie printer has access to cad cut adhesive vinyl, but apparently not emulsion, capillary film, or exposure unit, or rinse-out booth.
I have suggested looking into Ulano knife cut film, which of course, is the same basic method, but with screen print compatible materials.
Cap film or emulsion, a sink, and the sun?
You know my job is to help new people, but in the end we have to have some sort of paddle for the canoe...
Our user here wanting help, well you and I both want to help.
Gilligan, you will have to forgive me for exchanging thoughts with “the Frog," I assure you we are not exactly ignoring you or your needs.
We both agree you are in need of some alternate materials to prop up your future improvement... I was thrown for a loop with some of it...
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Hey, I'm a big boy... I don't get offended that easy.
I get it, from you guy's perspective I'm doing things the hard way. But you guys forget how intimidating this stuff was when you first started.
Let me address something real quick Douglas... though it wasn't the best way... I had mentioned that I was using vinyl for a stencil in this thread http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1202.0 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1202.0) . I should never have assumed everyone was paying attention. I just got so much help in there that I thought everyone was on board. My bad. Wasn't trying to blind side anyone, I just assumed too much myself.
Now, the reason I use vinyl is, you mentioned like 3-4 pieces of gear/processes that need to be done to use emulsion/cap film. Each of those have a process to themselves. First you got to prep the screen. Then you have to coat the screen... this is intimidating in itself... though less so after I watched my buddy's guys coat a couple screens first hand. Still I worry about 1:1 coating (I think I would rather do 2:1 *shrug* ). Then you got to dry them (no big deal)... then you have to expose them. I'm scientific... sun just isn't a consistent source where I am. I want to "set it and forget it" like a rotisserie oven on tv. :) So that means I need an exposure unit. I'm getting close here because I saw where someone is successfully using a vacuum storage bag to get a tight film to mesh seal.... Oh, speaking of... I have to make sure I can output nice good dark films (and buy them and hope I get ones that work... I think I'm gonna get Fixxons for my WF1100 Pigment ink printer). Then I have to get my exposure times right so everything washes out properly.
Ok... see when it's broken down from a newbie you can see how it seems very overwhelming and then you read that you can use sticker vinyl rather successfully for short runs (~100)... well hell. Trust me... working the squeegee and curing has ENOUGH things to learn about. I just needed to get my squeegee wet and get some printing going on. Then I can start adding other parts of the puzzle together later.
Basically I am a garage printer doing this as a side gig that is looking to make it into something bigger... but as I'm coming up to that pace and learning the ropes... for me, the best thing is taking it slow and one step at a time. Whatever gets me to stop procrastinating and get past some of the many hurdles in front of me I will take.
Let's put it this way... I bought my first screens in Feb-2010... I just printed my first job last week! I didn't even own a squeegee or ink until a week before that!
I hope that helps you understand my timidness a little better.
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Hey, I'm a big boy... I don't get offended that easy.
I get it, from you guy's perspective I'm doing things the hard way. But you guys forget how intimidating this stuff was when you first started.
Let me address something real quick Douglas... though it wasn't the best way... I had mentioned that I was using vinyl for a stencil in this thread [url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1202.0[/url] ([url]http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php?topic=1202.0[/url]) . I should never have assumed everyone was paying attention. I just got so much help in there that I thought everyone was on board. My bad. Wasn't trying to blind side anyone, I just assumed too much myself.
Now, the reason I use vinyl is, you mentioned like 3-4 pieces of gear/processes that need to be done to use emulsion/cap film. Each of those have a process to themselves. First you got to prep the screen. Then you have to coat the screen... this is intimidating in itself... though less so after I watched my buddy's guys coat a couple screens first hand. Still I worry about 1:1 coating (I think I would rather do 2:1 *shrug* ). Then you got to dry them (no big deal)... then you have to expose them. I'm scientific... sun just isn't a consistent source where I am. I want to "set it and forget it" like a rotisserie oven on tv. :) So that means I need an exposure unit. I'm getting close here because I saw where someone is successfully using a vacuum storage bag to get a tight film to mesh seal.... Oh, speaking of... I have to make sure I can output nice good dark films (and buy them and hope I get ones that work... I think I'm gonna get Fixxons for my WF1100 Pigment ink printer). Then I have to get my exposure times right so everything washes out properly.
Ok... see when it's broken down from a newbie you can see how it seems very overwhelming and then you read that you can use sticker vinyl rather successfully for short runs (~100)... well hell. Trust me... working the squeegee and curing has ENOUGH things to learn about. I just needed to get my squeegee wet and get some printing going on. Then I can start adding other parts of the puzzle together later.
Basically I am a garage printer doing this as a side gig that is looking to make it into something bigger... but as I'm coming up to that pace and learning the ropes... for me, the best thing is taking it slow and one step at a time. Whatever gets me to stop procrastinating and get past some of the many hurdles in front of me I will take.
Let's put it this way... I bought my first screens in Feb-2010... I just printed my first job last week! I didn't even own a squeegee or ink until a week before that!
I hope that helps you understand my timidness a little better.
We do understand and commiserate with you, and I wish I could tell you there was even a trick or two to get you to the level you want to get to... I am afraid there is no trick except to try, read, and learn.
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It only looks intimidating, when in actuality, it will save you more time and headaches then you are trying to avoid right now.
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I agree. I know that it is like riding a bike... all 2nd nature once you get it down.
I was talking to my buddy's shop guy and telling him how it just seems daunting from the outside. He shared how it was tough when he first started and how much of a mess he would make (he's my buddy's best printer). He then said... "but now it's not even something I would be proud of. I'd feel pretty retarded if I couldn't do this as easily as I do it."
So I know it WILL be easy. I just don't want to get discouraged with tripping up on every hurdle down the track.
Most of my problems came from no gasket (vinyl on wrong side), poor stroke technique (inconsistent to say the least), and probably mostly poor off contact.
Using vinyl as a stencil for simple designs should be just fine and I have still figured out how to push a squeegee (pushing seems easier/better)... well, enough to clear the screen at least half the time (ok, I'm pushing it ;) ) Plus I learned about curing (and that I NEED a conveyor ;) ). Learned not to put images too close to the edge of screens as it's hard to get a good print with such uneven tension.
Now that I am more comfortable with the actual printing process... the prepress part won't cause me to lose all steam when I hit snags. I know more hurdles are there and I'm by no means a good printer (I'm pretty bad right now)... but I was already pretty discouraged with the process because of my bad prints... if I had been fighting coating and exposure issues leading up to that experience... I might have just given up and stuck with contracting my printing out. Now I can fight with emulsion and coating/exposing and it will just be a "fun" experiment and me trying to learn a better way to do something and not fighting the "only" way to do something. :)
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I get it, from you guy's perspective I'm doing things the hard way. But you guys forget how intimidating this stuff was when you first started.
Now, the reason I use vinyl is, you mentioned like 3-4 pieces of gear/processes that need to be done to use emulsion/cap film. Each of those have a process to themselves. First you got to prep the screen. Then you have to coat the screen... this is intimidating in itself... though less so after I watched my buddy's guys coat a couple screens first hand.
…and vinyl has its own process. Maybe it's ok to use vinyl for short runs, but what happens when you get an order for 200+? I can't imagine that it would be a good idea to learn how to use emulsion from scratch when you get a larger order.
Still I worry about 1:1 coating (I think I would rather do 2:1 *shrug* ). Then you got to dry them (no big deal)... then you have to expose them. I'm scientific... sun just isn't a consistent source where I am. I want to "set it and forget it" like a rotisserie oven on tv. :) So that means I need an exposure unit. I'm getting close here because I saw where someone is successfully using a vacuum storage bag to get a tight film to mesh seal.... Oh, speaking of... I have to make sure I can output nice good dark films (and buy them and hope I get ones that work... I think I'm gonna get Fixxons for my WF1100 Pigment ink printer). Then I have to get my exposure times right so everything washes out properly.
To be honest, 1:1 coating is ok for short runs, it might be even ok for long runs. So long as the exposure is good and the emulsion is tough enough. But a 2:1 or 2:2 is what I like to use. I started with a 1:1 sharp side coating and it worked ok, but as my technique improved, I was able to get more consistent coating. Combined with a nice exposure unit, I got nice sharp, thick stencils. Speaking of improved technique, it might have taken me five screens to get good at 1:1, I only continued that until I got a 1000 watt metal halide and moved on to thicker coatings.
I really think that you are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is. Just go to your supplier and tell them what kind of ink you are using and ask if they will give you a quart sample of the appropriate emulsion. It isn't recommended, but you could even use your squeegee to coat the screen, that's what I did before I got a scoop coater. Some even use a credit card! They should also have samples of emulsion remover and degreaser.
Come to think of it, ask for the sample ulano exposure calculator. It will go a long way toward helping you dial in your exposure. If they don't have the sample, the calculators that they sell should only be $50 or so dollars and look alot more comprehensive than the ulano sample. It's possible to get in the ball park by guessing, but you would go through much less emulsion with a calculator. I forgot about the manual step wedge method, but the sample would be easier.
Trust me... working the squeegee and curing has ENOUGH things to learn about. I just needed to get my squeegee wet and get some printing going on. Then I can start adding other parts of the puzzle together later.
Basically I am a garage printer doing this as a side gig that is looking to make it into something bigger... but as I'm coming up to that pace and learning the ropes... for me, the best thing is taking it slow and one step at a time.
Let's put it this way... I bought my first screens in Feb-2010... I just printed my first job last week! I didn't even own a squeegee or ink until a week before that!
To be fair, I have never tried to use vinyl for stencil material, so I can't say for certain that it is the source of all your troubles, but at least try using the traditional photo stencil method. Could you ask your buddy to allow you to use his equipment to coat and expose a screen or two? What if using emulsion made it easier to pull the squeegee and get clean prints? If you are looking to make it into something bigger, you will move on to some sort of photostencil. How much detail can you get out of a vinyl cutter anyway? Will it do an 88lpi stencil?
I am also a garage printer that is currently low volume, but I am taking this opportunity to learn as much as I can about the process so my life will be easier when I do get a large and complicated job. I had done some printing before this, but I have just started in earnest last june. In earnest meaning that I am trying to do it right the first time. Before that I was coating with a squeegee, exposing with a 150w incandescent and printing with a helper holding down the screen.
As for stencil versus emulsion. I swear that my screens feel tighter with a stencil in. At least it should make it more difficult for a low tension mesh to wrinkle I would imagine. Of course, this depends on the emulsion. I have some ulano that feels like rubber and kiwo that feels like hard plastic.
Another thought, Have you degreased and or abraded your mesh? Doing so might help the vinyl stick better.
I know this is a ton o' words and all, but I noticed that you said something like, "That's easy for you to say, but…" So I wanted to put in my 2 cents as a relative beginner to try to explain that it isn't as difficult as you may think. That isn't to say that I found it intuitive, far from it, but I had the help of the search function on multiple screen printing boards and the members themselves when I could find it in the search. Also, going to a brick and motar supplier has helped in many other ways. Whenever I tell them that I want to buy something that I haven't bought before, they check to see if they have a sample and order it if they don't have it. If it weren't for the samples, I would still be using the same emulsion that I started with, which is terrible in comparison to what I am using now for what I print.
Come to think of it, I can't recommend going to a brick and mortar store enough. I realize that they vary in level of customer service, but they can help you in ways that are difficult through online retailers. Even if you are going through a local supplier, try to ask as many questions as possible and they will probably try to help with info and samples if you need a different product. The first time I asked a question to the sales guy at my local Midwest, he got on the phone with Nazdar! My jaw dropped. He has even offered to come out to visit my shop, though I don't think I will take him up on that until I want to buy equipment from them. I figure that they want me to succeed so I will keep buying more and more stuff, lol. So far, it's working like a charm.
Just in case the pile wasn't big enough, here is a picture of my first exposure with kiwo poly plus on 110T with a 1000W MH using the ulano ND filter over a film that I printed. I have since gotten it much more dialed in, but I was pretty excited about this when it happened.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6025/6007156129_462306af54.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31102165@N08/6007156129/)
IMG_3513 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31102165@N08/6007156129/#) by StuJohnston (http://www.flickr.com/people/31102165@N08/), on Flickr
full size here, http://www.flickr.com/photos/31102165@N08/6007156129/#sizes/o/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31102165@N08/6007156129/#sizes/o/in/photostream/)
If you look through my stream, you will see other process photos, but there is a fair amount of work done by printers at my shop that are even more novice than I am. Also it is much more flatstock oriented, but the screenmaking principles are the same.
Uh oh, another idea. Wouldn't you still have to use haze remover with a vinyl stencil? That is probably the worst part about screenmaking. Also, wouldn't the vinyl leave behind some of the adhesive? I had better submit this soon before I think of more!
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Another thought, Have you degreased and or abraded your mesh? Doing so might help the vinyl stick better.
No, no, a thousand times no!
This is the one part of your otherwise helpful post that is dated and incorrect by today's findings.
Even at it's height of use, abrading was really only designed for use with cap film or other film type stencils. (never needed with proper application of emulsion which more encapsulates the mesh)
At any rate, it was discovered that more damage was done to the mesh itself, leading to premature mesh failure, or tiny particles of abrader or diy household scouring powders trapped in the thread overlaps)
I started with real silk, and never did a thing to it with the stencils of the time.
Synthetics came in to stand up to the chemicals needed to remove the newer stencil materials, and if I remember correctly, some were nylon which was really slick. Perhaps that's where this then-common practice originated.
Somewhere, maybe from Kiwo or Autotype, there are micro photographs of mesh damaged in this way. I also believe that Douglas Grigar had an article on this, but can't locate it.
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Ok, I will cop to giving some bad advice. I have never personally abraded any screens, but I figured that the vinyl would have a hard time holding on to begin with. I should also mention that some companies that I can't recall the names of have old videos that must have been made in the eighties that have been uploaded to youtube where they use products they sold to abrade new mesh.
No degreaser?
I am pretty sure I saw the article you are talking about in the articles on Kiwo's site.
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Absolutely plan on learning the process. Trying to figure out what I need to get from my supplier besides a scoop coater (didn't have the size I wanted when he delivered last time. Which brings me to a small point, they are 2 hours away so I can't really just drop in and ask questions. :(
I appreciate all the advice though and I will be doing all of these things soon!
The vinyl sticks pretty well to the shirt side. Yes the adhesive causes issues but you just have to wash out the screen as SOON as you are finish or it gets real goopy... either way still no fun.
And yes there is still a dehaze process.
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Ok, I will cop to giving some bad advice. I have never personally abraded any screens, but I figured that the vinyl would have a hard time holding on to begin with. I should also mention that some companies that I can't recall the names of have old videos that must have been made in the eighties that have been uploaded to youtube where they use products they sold to abrade new mesh.
No degreaser?
I am pretty sure I saw the article you are talking about in the articles on Kiwo's site.
Yep, Ulano still stubbornly holds on this process and sells more than one product. The fact that they even mention not to use it on silk tells one that this is almost forty year old thinking. (Interestingly, I see that they mention the nylon mesh, so I am remembering this era correctly) I have no idea if nylon is still common for flat stock.
btw, you do understand that I wasn't trying to be overly critical, but didn't want obsolete, possibly harmful info going out to newbies if possible.
Now, if anyone has had problems adhering stencils because they didn't abraid, , let me know. We can discuss the pros and cons of using of abraders in the screen making section, hopefully with some industry experts.
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(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h40/douglasgrigar/mesh1.gif)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h40/douglasgrigar/mesh3.gif)
The effects of household abrasive cleaners on mesh shown in the above photographs.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h40/douglasgrigar/mesh2.gif)
Even the made-for products with smaller abrasive particles cause the damage seen here (above), this is considered proper use of abrasives for cap film use. There continues to be debate about the use of abrasives, one point in favor of its use is the fact that cap films do benefit from the roughened mesh in holding and longevity of stencil use, and even a more secure application. Gain something lose something proposition.
The problems with abrasives are obvious, mesh damage, more difficult cleaning and reclaiming, changing the ink flow properties...
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Ok, I will cop to giving some bad advice. I have never personally abraded any screens, but I figured that the vinyl would have a hard time holding on to begin with. I should also mention that some companies that I can't recall the names of have old videos that must have been made in the eighties that have been uploaded to youtube where they use products they sold to abrade new mesh.
No degreaser?
I am pretty sure I saw the article you are talking about in the articles on Kiwo's site.
btw, you do understand that I wasn't trying to be overly critical, but didn't want obsolete, possibly harmful info going out to newbies if possible.
Now, if anyone has had problems adhering stencils because they didn't abraid, , let me know. We can discuss the pros and cons of using of abraders in the screen making section, hopefully with some industry experts.
No problem. As I mentioned, I am not an abrader and have only had a few issues that I have since corrected. Perhaps it was misguided, but I was thinking that even the really permanent adhesive on the vinyl that I print on, will take off paint, but I can't imagine that it would take hold of mesh wet with ink very well. Speaking of, I should search for info on cap film. There must be something to it if people are willing to pay that much for a stencil!
Gilligan, it seems sort of odd that they didn't have the right length of scoop coater, Midwest sells it by the inch and cuts it off a length of extruded aluminum, then slaps two caps on the end. You might try to get the email of their salesperson and start a conversation with them so that you will know what to ask for when/if you make the trip. As for the photo method shopping list, it's basically: scoop coater, emulsion, emulsion remover and maybe degreaser. It seems that Frog may disagree with that bit. It may because I am using solvent inks, but the last time I didn't degrease, I got not just pinholes, but certified fisheyes.
Frog, that tanks image made me laugh even before I figured out what it was for! Also, I am buying my mesh from Midwest so it's plain sefar.
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As for the photo method shopping list, it's basically: scoop coater, emulsion, emulsion remover and maybe degreaser. It seems that Frog may disagree with that bit. It may because I am using solvent inks, but the last time I didn't degrease, I got not just pinholes, but certified fisheyes.
We have a little misunderstanding here. I never said not to degrease, I said not to abrade. Although there is a combination product available, that's not the same thing.
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Thanks for clearing that up! I didn't know there was a combo product. Something that Roger Jennings has mentioned several times is that manufacturers do not know what it's like to actually print. I don't think that is always true, but as long as there are expensive fluoro units for sale, there will be some truth to it.
To add to the evidence, I saw a video that showed a guy using soft scrub to 'prepare' a new screen. He went through three or more cycles of soft scrub, then the screen popped when it was drying! The reason he posted the video was to ask why this happened!
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I have all the other products... they just didn't have the scoop when I placed my initial order.
They come through every Tuesday and Thursday so I'll probably just get that and a little ink. Now I need two different length coaters anyway so that's another thing. :)
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Now I need two different length coaters anyway so that's another thing. :)
Unless some of your screens are seriously oversized, or perhaps smaller like a specialized leg screen, a coater that covers your standard width could be sufficient.
I also use a less expensive block-out (a product like emulsion with no photo reaction) and/or tape on screens that my coater doesn't cover completely.
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Yeah, I guess it's less tape than I initially thought.
I do plan on "permanent" blockout (screen glue?) as has been discussed else where on this forum. So it would be a moot point as soon as I do that.