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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: TheGhost on August 09, 2014, 02:10:53 PM
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We have an ElectraPrint we purchased about 10 years ago. There are some serious issues with this thing and we had a tech out here about 4 months ago who "leveled" it and did some checks on it, but then proceeded to leave without ever printing a multi color design or checking to see if it was actually working. Literally printed nothing. We've called them and they basically have told us "It's time to upgrade" and refuse to send any techs out anymore. Can anyone help?
It's basically impossible to print anything on it now without putting two throw away tees on the two heads that are out of registration. I've been here for 4 hours trying to adjust the arms and see if that will help and so far no luck. Anyone have any other ideas? Or want to make some money and come help me fix this?
They did send us two new palates to try, but unfortunately that makes no difference. Something needs to be done but I am not a mechanic so I really don't know and I can't really find much info anywhere. What to do?!
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I'm a tech for different equipment, but I just can't imagine any tech (being there) and not testing before they leave. I'm sure you aren't exaggerating, but wow, Seems unimaginable.
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My personal experience tells me there are good techs and bad techs. And they are worlds apart.
I would look into getting a good tech in there to offer another opinion, and hopefully fix your issues.
Where are you located? I'm sure someone on here can refer a good tech in your area.
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there are so many places to start...it sounds like since it's only 2 heads or platens, it's probably fixable.
is it 2 platens that are off, or 2 print heads? If it is platens, they probably need to be leveled to the heads and if it's the heads, those will need to be leveled to the other heads. There are a bunch of ways of doing this.
There are a couple of brown owners on here. In my opinion, you have 2 options...hire an independent tech or buy a new/used machine. There are machines with better support and more techs that are familiar with them. I would look into this option, a good used Gauntlet 6 color can run between $6-9K for a SOLID machine.
When you hire a tech, learn what they are doing and why. You should be his shadow. Ask questions.
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Okay, I know nothing of the Browns, but here's what I would do assuming the main bushing etc. aren't roached and the regi forks and bearings are correctly set:
1 - level the base
2 - level print arm #1 and platen #1 as best you can
3 - double check Parallel between the head #1 print stroke and platen #1
4 - Parallel the rest of the print head print stroke to pallet #1
5 - Parallel the rest of the platens to the print stroke of head #1
6 - Double check all platens parallel to all print head print strokes
7 - Set all heads screen off-contacts to platen #1 and double check all platens to all heads for off contact of .125" or less, preferably less.
Aside from that, print with the minimum print pressure you can, S and LX mesh make a huge difference for that.
Good luck, keep us posted.
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If you have 2 pallets that are "consistently" out of registration, and always the same out, it sounds like a registration pin/bearing issue to me..??
If im not mistaken, the browns have an adjustable collar on the center shaft, so if that is out, it should be fixable??
Was the tech a brown tech, or an independent??
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Where are you located?
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We are located south of Chicago about 35 minutes, 20 minutes from the border of Indiana basically. Thank you all for the suggestions. We are getting there it seems. I will keep you all posted.
Still would be happy to have an independent tech out to help/take a look, but we'll see how we're doing at the end of today.
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This is not the first nightmare story I have read on Browns. What I have already read, even before this, has left in indelible impression to me and I do not doubt his story one bit.
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This is not the first nightmare story I have read on Browns. What I have already read, even before this, has left in indelible impression to me and I do not doubt his story one bit.
They are all about the money more than anything. Customer satisfaction is not something they care about. If they did they would come and troubleshoot this machine instead of expecting us to know what to do.
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This is not the first nightmare story I have read on Browns. What I have already read, even before this, has left in indelible impression to me and I do not doubt his story one bit.
They are all about the money more than anything. Customer satisfaction is not something they care about. If they did they would come and troubleshoot this machine instead of expecting us to know what to do.
I've owned two ElectraPrints (only 1 now) both of which I bought used. In fact, all I've ever purchased from Brown are parts. I've had some issues with the machines, a lot due to them being older and well-loved, but Mike and Hans have always been nothing but helpful. Hans has even talked me through repairs and troubleshooting in the past which resulted in nothing being purchased from them at all. Although I have read some negative stories about Brown, I've personally had nothing but good experiences with them. And that's coming from someone who has spent less than $1k with them.
As far as independent techs go, Brannon from Spot Color Supply installed one of my machines and has come in to level both of them at different times. Of course I'm in Atlanta, so I'm a bit spoiled on the travel expense. But I've been very happy with the work he has done for me in the past.
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They were nice guys up until the last service we received. Since then they've been all about us upgrading and refuse to send anyone here.
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There is a independent tech up here in MN, no clue if he knows Browns or not, I assume he does. Let me know if you want his contact info.
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A buddy of mine had a semi-auto... When he decided to go full auto he looked around and went back with brown because of the service.
So it's not all bad.
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Anyone here know how to explain what to do to adjust the collar on the center shaft? We adjusted the arms and it seemed to help a bit but still not perfect...
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Post pictures
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Put the machine in manual mode and then perform the following sequence several times:
Index
Lift
Drop
Index
Lift
Drop
....
As the pallets lift, see if they lift straight up, or if they have a noticeable shift to the left or right.
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It's running pretty smooth but it seems like no platen is the same as far as location it prints. Does anyone know how to adjust the collar on the shaft? I would post pictures but of what?
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Is it holding regerstration but the image is moving left to right on the pallets. Example pallet 1 image is 2" from the left side of the pallet #2 it's 2-1/2" #3 1-3/4" etc.
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Is it holding regerstration but the image is moving left to right on the pallets. Example pallet 1 image is 2" from the left side of the pallet #2 it's 2-1/2" #3 1-3/4" etc.
Yes, exactly. There are currently 3 pallets that print about 2 centimeters off. If I line the exact same design up on the 1st head and then on head 5 and check the registration across each pallet there are 3 that are off a centimeter. Head 3,4, and 7 it seems.
We measured and it really is inconsistent across all of them as far as where it is printing from pallet to pallet. I'll post some pictures a bit later when I get home.
Again, is there any techs who can help and come work on this machine?
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Sounds like the press needs to be registered. You can do this. Call me and I'll walk you through it. 404-895-1796
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Is it holding regerstration but the image is moving left to right on the pallets. Example pallet 1 image is 2" from the left side of the pallet #2 it's 2-1/2" #3 1-3/4" etc.
Yes, exactly. There are currently 3 pallets that print about 2 centimeters off. If I line the exact same design up on the 1st head and then on head 5 and check the registration across each pallet there are 3 that are off a centimeter. Head 3,4, and 7 it seems.
We measured and it really is inconsistent across all of them as far as where it is printing from pallet to pallet. I'll post some pictures a bit later when I get home.
Again, is there any techs who can help and come work on this machine?
So the print is staying registered, it's just not staying centered on the shirt from platen to platen?
If so, that's SUPER simple to fix but adjusting the platen mounts. This is something you can easily do yourself.
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How? Theyre all supposedly level?
It is not staying registered. If I line up two of the same screens on head 1 and head 5 using the first pallet, there are 3 pallets that do not print registered. It is registered on the other 5.
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How? Theyre all supposedly level?
It is not staying registered. If I line up two of the same screens on head 1 and head 5 using the first pallet, there are 3 pallets that do not print registered. It is registered on the other 5.
Can you post some photos of what's happening? I think that may give us a better idea for troubleshooting.
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Here are a few pictures of what is happening. I have this screen lined on head 5 to the screen on head 1, it's lined up on 5/8 pallets. On the three that are off it looks like this. There is one that is slightly better than the other 2 but still off. Also when we measured where the print lands from pallet to pallet it is never the same.
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Is it out of reg Top to Bottom or Side to Side? T-B would be un level pallets .. side to side would registration bearings/forks.
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I'm betting it's the registration bearings and forks.
you'll want to figure out exactly which arms are out of registration, and look to see which bearings are engaged in which forks when you table up... also.. you'll want to see how 'hard' it tables up when you table up when those arms are under head 5 and head 1...
you can definitely fix the registration, but it'll take patience. and some accurate measuring to get it perfect.
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Just when I was starting to look at a brown as my first auto....lol.
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You need a good tech and your issues will be solved probably. Unless there is something we are missing like it fell off a truck and is bent to hell lol.
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I have an Electraprint also. I can't quite figure what would cause the problem you are having. I would suggest:
1. Check the L-R micro to make sure they're tight enough on the head.
2. Rotate the alignment pin (couldn't find a proper name for it). Located on the next level up from the platten, (easily seen at the load station) it slides into a couple rollers to L-R align the platten. It's a pin about 1 in in diameter and 3 inches long. If it has developed a flat side, it could affect individual platten registration. A slight rotation of the pin will give it a new surface. Make sure they're greased.
3. If all else fails, I'd try a shim where the platten arm attaches to the base. This is assuming that platten is off in every screen position.
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Here's what the alignment pin looks like.
(http://myscreenprinter.com/images/electraprint%20reg%20pin.jpg)
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Just when I was starting to look at a brown as my first auto....lol.
I too have an ElectraPrint, and in 3 years, zero mechanical problems. Any issue I've had has been user error, and even then, Mike and crew have been EXTREMELY helpful. 8)
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I'd rotate the pin 10 degrees or so just to give it a new contact surface. A small sliver of change is amplified a lot by the time you get out to the end of the platten. I don't know that this is the problem. I'm just looking for reasons that might remedy the issue. This was pointed out to me when we set up my machine.
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They were nice guys up until the last service we received. Since then they've been all about us upgrading and refuse to send anyone here.
They must be idiots. They won't fix their own equipment to your satisfaction, and are trying to sell you a new one instead? To quote Barzini in Princess Bride, it's inconceivable.
Steve
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They were nice guys up until the last service we received. Since then they've been all about us upgrading and refuse to send anyone here.
They must be idiots. They won't fix their own equipment to your satisfaction, and are trying to sell you a new one instead? To quote Barzini in Princess Bride, it's inconceivable.
Steve
It also doesn't jibe with reports of outstanding service from other users.
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It took 3 presses to get mine mostly ok. They are certainly nice & kind people but with the limited technicians it can take forever to get things fixed that cannot be done on your own. By things I mean construction & installation flaws, not stuff I caused. Guess it's a compromise as their equipment usually costs less which wasn't the sole reason I went with them. I initially liked the family-based operation, quiet operation & overall less equipment and electrical required in my limited space. In the end they have upgraded components on the final machine which was nice.
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As far as the problem... I've never been able to completely get rid of the lateral shifting on some of the heads/platens. My first machine would gradually creep over almost as bad as what your experiencing. With the 3rd unit they sent out it's not as bad but still there. The re-registering of the pin gates is your best bet. I would perform a full re-leveling along with it. Remember to remove or loosen the support bars that are connecting to each print head when doing the head & platen leveling.
Unless the legs are bolted to the floor they move. I've had mine move enough to mis-align the photo eye for the skip shirt sensor...even after slowing the index motor speed. Since the outer part of the screen is supported by a ledge that's attached to the legs then you can see where issues with off-contact and mis-registration can get crazy. So make sure your head support legs are up when leveling then securely tightened down after done.
Using minimal print pressure helps because there is some "slop" in the printing linkage. The print carriages slide along a greased piece of metal so the more pressure that is used, I believe, amplifies the slop. You can see some slight moving in unused heads as the press indexes. There is also shifting after the squeegee comes down to print.
It's very difficult to set even off contact on the screens due to way it has to be done and with aligning it to the ledge on the legs. It's kind of like doing it on a manual but your having to jump around from side to side and then you got to account for the tensioning of the bolt. It's just 4 bolts but takes a ton of patience. Not a big deal for simple 1 or 2 color stuff but with a few colors and tight registration you really got to work with it to make it as best as it can get.
Even a couple days after leveling the machine still settles. Sometimes it's more significant than other times. It can settle outside of their acceptable tolerance of .007-.009. I'm using their dial indicator gauges.
I've had both 6x10 & 8x10 full size 220V units. Registration was part of the problems. Severe creaking and chirping on index which could not be fixed (I have videos as proof!). I bet the smaller junior units are much easier to deal with the design style the Brown presses implement.
The press is great for simple spot jobs with loose requirements on registration. You can usually power through it's flaws with increased pressure and creative trapping in the art. They've mentioned using 3pt traps, which I think is insane. But it's a stress pit trying to do any precision printing such as under basing smallish text (no not some 6pt times roman or anything like that). I have a degree in graphic design and worked for 7 years as production manager (also doing all the pre press) for an offset and digital printing shop. I know my way around spot seps and optimal artwork techniques (obviously not everything carries over to screen printing) so I feel like I'm giving the press the best artwork setup it can get.
They did give me the upgraded squeegee & floodbar system (much nicer than the allen wrench adjusting-style), 2 extra print heads, the laser system (not really that great-very dim), and 5 pocket platens for some of the trouble.
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They were nice guys up until the last service we received. Since then they've been all about us upgrading and refuse to send anyone here.
They must be idiots. They won't fix their own equipment to your satisfaction, and are trying to sell you a new one instead? To quote Barzini in Princess Bride, it's inconceivable.
Steve
It also doesn't jibe with reports of outstanding service from other users.
I guess I just can't understand them not getting the job done, when the others have had good experiences. I know our old friend Johnny in Tennessee uses one and is pretty happy with it. I looked them over, but always felt the quality wasn't there, kind of flimsy.
Steve
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Wow Cclaud3, thanks for all the info. Your story is exactly why I feel like this machine is probably unfixable. I've got a dial indicator coming today and will try to run some tests later tonight to register the machine but I mean the fact that Mike B was out here last to register it and now they won't send anyone out to do anything for us tells me our machine probably has something wrong with it that is not fixable. We'll see. Fingers crossed.
Steve, their sales guy, told us that our screens would work on it when we first bought it because they would engineer it to. Guess what, they didn't. They also said they would upgrade our machine to have an automated foot pedal in the future but that never happened. I know now that we should have never expected the manual screens to work, but back then we didn't know much.
I was in high school and not exactly planning on taking up printing as my career at the time so I really can't comment on the handful of service visits we received. Steve was our service guy the majority of the times, maybe twice Hans was here too.
They're nice guys, but their business practices and quality of their machines indicate they don't care that much about their customers. The money of small shops who can't really do anything to harm their business is really all they are after if you ask me.
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They were nice guys up until the last service we received. Since then they've been all about us upgrading and refuse to send anyone here.
They must be idiots. They won't fix their own equipment to your satisfaction, and are trying to sell you a new one instead? To quote Barzini in Princess Bride, it's inconceivable.
Steve
It also doesn't jibe with reports of outstanding service from other users.
I guess I just can't understand them not getting the job done, when the others have had good experiences. I know our old friend Johnny in Tennessee uses one and is pretty happy with it. I looked them over, but always felt the quality wasn't there, kind of flimsy.
Steve
I always had the impression that ElectraPrints were very basic, and that is actually quite appealing to some. (Which may also make this user-fixable)
It's the apparent bailing out of the support issue that doesn't fit the picture we've been given over the years.
Ten years could be a lot of impressions, but I wonder if when they said "time to upgrade", if they made any specific suggestions as to whet they felt wore out and/or if this was based at all on what the tech reported to them.
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Yeah, if it's been ok for 10 years and just the last 4 months have been hell then I understand them dragging feet on sending techs. As far as them not printing before leaving I understand that as well. Friends, family, random people say how could you let them leave without it printing correctly? What are you supposed to do? Hold them up with force? The only way they have ever gotten acceptable prints is by spending significant amounts of time tweaking the press while the job is setup. Raising and lowering off contact on individual screens and such–not simple micros.
The thing that is annoying when you finally get a tech they seem to always arrive late in the day and want to work until 9-10pm. Then they want to do the test prints late and your tired because you've been helping them break the press down. Sometimes we/they can get acceptable prints within an hour or so but the press settles pretty quickly and it's hard to consistently get things to hold registration. Not even using flashes on jobs that could potential shrink the shirts or cause mis-registration. Of course they would be in for 2/2.5 days when they were replacing the presses, then rushing prints at the end. When they replaced it the second time we were doing a 3 or 4 color job on white and couldn't get it to register consistently. The tech had to leave to move on to the next stop.
Steve came out between the 2nd and 3rd press (and at least once on the first machine). Took months as I guess no one else in the area needed a visit so they were trying to minimize travel costs. Got a lot of the, "it's probably something your doing type of tone". Before he came out, I sent him the artwork for the job and gave him the option of mesh, print order, whatever he wanted so that the job couldn't be blamed for the misprints. Well he finally made it out and reset the machine from the ground up. Took him hours to get the 5 color job to register intermittently. He admitted that it wasn't right and it would have to be replaced. Found some parts that had been drilled out to make it easier to install that were not supposed to drilled out. May or may not have effected the current issues but didn't look good. I wouldn't have known, so he was honest about finding it and telling me. A couple of months later I got the 3rd press with the extras.
When I purchased I thought I was basically buying an automatic press (using a lot of bolts!) with the compromise of using hand-turned knobs for everything. They really put on a good presentation and fill you with confidence that they got you covered. I don't really mind the knobs but the caps are always coming off so you resort to using wrenches. The current machine is a older smaller footprint of the 10 station machine which they felt had the least flex than the newer, wider diameter model and less chance of the movement. It looks the same, just more compact. Their painting & powdercoating treatment is also subpar. The equipment arrives with scrapes, scratches, etc. Powder coating is flaking off on most of the edges of the components. Maybe it's the stress on the small connections? They've mentioned the moisture in the South, surely I don't have the most humid print shop in the world? It's no wetter or hotter than anyone else. They have replaced some exposed steel parts that were rusting badly. I had rust on the machine a month or 2 after it was installed.
I went to the SGIA a few years ago to buy the anatol titan. The regional rep was such a jerk to me and my wife that we refused to deal with him and the company. I'm sure we were asking newbie auto owner questions and he had zero patience and was very condescending. Extremely pushy, I've been told he no longer works for them. So we were more and more into the family business of Brown and how knowledgeable they are, which they are.
Basically we just deal with it. It's been suggest to sue them. I've been involved in an (automobile) lawsuit before and it's extremely unpleasant. The machine prints, just not in a consistently precise way.
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CClaud.....Please accept my sincere apology on the behalf of Anatol and the staff here at Anatol. Rude, disrespectful treatment is not tolerated here anymore at Anatol.
I understand your frustration with being treated rudely.....it should never happen. If I can help in any way please let me know. If you have any problems in the future please let me know.
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funny how different people are treated differently by different companies.
I went to the Anatol booth at NBM Indy in 2013 and was treated really nicely, especially considering that I had no experience with auto presses at all, if I remember correctly, the midwest region sales guy at the time(?) was named Mike.
On the other hand, the guys at both the Brown and Lawson booths didn't even want to acknowledge me.
(Workhorse/TSPPS booth and M&R booth guys were both great to talk with too)
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Yeah, I understand. This was the '11 SGIA show. I think this guy's name was Paul-had glasses. Spoke with some Anatol employees and they acknowledged that was his general attitude.
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Yeah, I understand. This was the '11 SGIA show. I think this guy's name was Paul-had glasses. Spoke with some Anatol employees and they acknowledged that was his general attitude.
Wow, the only Paul I knew there was (and is) quite personable.
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Well without a shadow of a doubt it was a different person or he had the worst 2 days of his life. This person was a true prick.
2 of the most memorable questions I asked was "what is the prints per hour rating of the titan?"
Answer: "What does it matter, it would be impossible for you to print that fast anyway. All the presses in this show are faster than you could ever print."
Next question, "Can you dry cycle the Horizon (didn't have a Titan at the show) for me to see how it runs?"
Answer, he looks at me and my wife then dips his head and slowly walks over to the machine and starts it up" then he says "there you go, it's spinning round and round". I looked at my wife and asked "is he actually saying this stuff or am I becoming ill??"
He just stood there an stared at me and my wife. I asked a few other questions and he was very sarcastic in his responses.
He did setup a meet and greet at a local shop that had a titan. They weren't using it so it wasn't too much of a use. They said they had some issues near install but they've been happy with it.
He called me a couple of times on the 2nd day of the show. Asked when I was coming back over to buy it. I said I was pretty sure we were going with the Brown and he laughed and asked why would I do that? Told him it was a better fit and he abruptly got off the phone.
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About the time he got snarky, bored, and told me "there you go, it's spinning 'round and 'round" is about the moment I'd have told that he could "sit on it and spin" . . . then walked away.
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Ahahaha, sounds like he was a bad rep.
NEXT PROBLEM!
One of the bulbs in the quartz flash unit on the electra print is bad and we have no more extras (the one we did have was actually no good). Does anyone know the actual source of these bulbs? We called Brown and surprise surprise, they no longer make it. They'll sell us a free standing new unit for $675 though! Yay!
Anyone know where we can find the correct bulbs or a free standing fast flash unit that is of good quality and not made by Brown?
They also said they're gonna send a tech out as soon as they can schedule it...so that's cool we get to wait for an indefinite amount of time! YAY!
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Wow, this is an interesting thread, entertaining to a degree but it's also upsetting that someone would have to deal with some of the things talked about on this thread. I don't know what to say about a 10 year old Brown auto, on one hand I'd say that it's really awesome that you got 10 years out of it and perhaps it's time to move onward and upward. On the other hand, it sounds like a lot of things were said that haven't been followed through with and customers have been left hanging. I am not trying to say that one should be happy they got 10 years out of the machine, I know it probably sounds that way, but when I was researching autos 6 years ago I was looking for a machine that I could get AT LEAST 10 years of trouble free (relatively speaking) usage and by that time we'd need to upgrade and it would no longer be our workhorse and it would then become a support machine. Knowing the Brown isn't built to near the robustness of the machine we bought, I'm wondering just how many impressions/cycles and years one would expect from an Electraprint? And I was also not so pleasantly surprised by the price of the Brown Electraprints I've seen at the ISS Ft. Worth show several times, I would have thought it would have been about 2/3's of the quoted price.
I know I did nothing to further along this discussion or help in any way, but...that's my take on some of the stuff written here.
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Ahahaha, sounds like he was a bad rep.
NEXT PROBLEM!
One of the bulbs in the quartz flash unit on the electra print is bad and we have no more extras (the one we did have was actually no good). Does anyone know the actual source of these bulbs? We called Brown and surprise surprise, they no longer make it. They'll sell us a free standing new unit for $675 though! Yay!
Anyone know where we can find the correct bulbs or a free standing fast flash unit that is of good quality and not made by Brown?
They also said they're gonna send a tech out as soon as they can schedule it...so that's cool we get to wait for an indefinite amount of time! YAY!
Do the bulbs have any specs printed on them?
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Yes and I contacted SONEKO, the manufacturer, too just waiting for a reply.
Info is:
Soneko
230V 1600W
29-497HMB
Alan- I appreciate your take on it even though it doesn't help me register the machine haha.
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They source a lot of their parts from Grainger & McMaster-Carr. May want to check there, too.
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Yeah, I understand. This was the '11 SGIA show. I think this guy's name was Paul-had glasses. Spoke with some Anatol employees and they acknowledged that was his general attitude.
Again I am so sorry this happened to you and your wife, there is no excuse for such rudeness and I can assure you that this will not happen while I am here. The only Paul we had working here two years ago is no longer employed with us. I hear he is still in the industry. But I assure you he is not with us now! Please again accept our apology. We lost in the long run because we didn't earn your business. My sales team strives everyday to earn our customers business, with respect, information and a great equipment.
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http://soneko.com (http://soneko.com)
They are in Florida, will sell direct.
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Yeah, I understand. This was the '11 SGIA show. I think this guy's name was Paul-had glasses. Spoke with some Anatol employees and they acknowledged that was his general attitude.
Again I am so sorry this happened to you and your wife, there is no excuse for such rudeness and I can assure you that this will not happen while I am here. The only Paul we had working here two years ago is no longer employed with us. I hear he is still in the industry. But I assure you he is not with us now! Please again accept our apology. We lost in the long run because we didn't earn your business. My sales team strives everyday to earn our customers business, with respect, information and a great equipment.
Thanks.
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Got the bulbs ordered. Ran out of time today but I did get my dial indicator! Not sure exactly where I'm going to put it or how. Anyone care to share a picture with me?