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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: rmonks on June 10, 2014, 07:06:10 AM
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In another discussion here about spot guns, Alan802 was talking about his printer applying too much adhesive to the platten / shirt boards and resulting in the slap back of the shirt and getting ink on the shirt. MY Question (What is the correct amount of adhesive , or how can one avoid getting the boards too sticky). I Use Tekmar, and Textac both are too sticky until you run a few shirts, I have a lady that unloads and there have been times we had to stop the press to allow her to peel the shirt off the platten.
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First Xentack is what you should be using. :o :o Secondly if you have to stop the press to unload then too much adhesive is applied. I used to use about a 2" circle of Xentack and spread it with a plastic card or a 4" paint roller.
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Dilute it 50%. After all, it is water-based! Makes for much less initial tack but still maintains longevity of that perfect amount of tack.
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I diluted mine with 30% water and I use sign squeegee to spread a thin coat on the palets.
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I use the Tekmar stuff, and don't dilute, and have just learned how much to use to use to avoid the problem described.
It certainly does bring back memories however, of unloading on a Multiprinter, and completely being at the mercy of the loader, who also applied the spray stuff and controlled the speed as well.
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When applying it, my guy was slathering it on with a giant bead across the back of the pallet then using very light pressure with the vinyl applicator squeegee leaving behind a thick layer of glue. I put a thinner bead along the back and use heavier pressure with the applicator with an upright angle and leave behind a thin layer of glue over the entire surface. He has the mindset that more glue equals longer runs between applications which he still doesn't understand that it's the opposite. When your pallet glue wears out it's because of the lint that is removed from the shirts for the most part and the more lint you remove by applying too much glue, the less time your pallets stay tacky. It's completely beyond his comprehension level and I had to show him about 10 times how I apply glue. It's not easy finding the perfect amount that pulls very little lint from shirts but is strong enough to hold 12 pallets on a 1000 piece run but it's possible.
The unloader threw his back out one day trying to pull the shirts off and when I went to take over I was amazed at how bad it was. I put the glue on the first time to show him and he claimed that he would have to re-apply in 100 shirts but after the 500 or so shirt run he didn't have to stop for glue. I still don't think he understands or believes me. Our unloader loves it when I run the press and has let our printer know how much better everything runs when he's on vacation so those two don't get along anymore.
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I use the Tekmar stuff, and don't dilute, and have just learned how much to use to use to avoid the problem described.
It certainly does bring back memories however, of unloading on a Multiprinter, and completely being at the mercy of the loader, who also applied the spray stuff and controlled the speed as well.
I use tekmar as well, on a multiprinter no less. I have been trying the dilute by half method, but it seems way too thin to apply easily. I think that I will try full strength again using Alan's method. The first time I tried it full strength I was stretching the prints really bad and it was just a bear to unload to begin with. For the most part half strength works well for the amount of tack needed, but I seem to be applying two coats instead of just one to get the shirts to stick at all.
Oh yeah, I just remembered the other reason why too much tack makes printing a joy on a multiprinter, the platens are over two feet long to accommodate the unchangeable stroke so it's impossible to get the shirts to slide back when aligning them to the seam if the platen is too sticky.
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Found the lint can be removed with slightly soapy water and a scrubby on handle.
It is virtually as tacky as initial application. Tekmar
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Yeah, we do a slight dilution as well.
I know this is off the thread but it amazes me that a lot of shops out there still use that spray tack stuff. I know there are certain substrates that yes from time to time it comes in handy but in general day to day operations why use it? Makes a huge mess and clogs up your machines. And is ugly. And twenty other nasty things!
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Try using bristle brush broom head from a push broom. Works best
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Yeah I tried that like Mooseman mentioned in his video. Goopy lint seemed to get all clogged
up in the bristles and hard to pull out. On a scrubby it just makes a film and peels off like a little carpet.
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Try using bristle brush broom head from a push broom. Works best
this just blew my mind. we've been using red sponges, and they work ok, but this just blew my mind.
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I've been using one of those brushes that come attached to the jugs of carpet cleaner. Probably what Tony is talking about, there is a threaded hole in the center for a broom handle. I also use a 50/50 simple green and water solution to loosen the felt. I remembered that Mooseman used something called mean green, so I figured that it was probably something like simple green.
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I've been using one of those brushes that come attached to the jugs of carpet cleaner. Probably what Tony is talking about, there is a threaded hole in the center for a broom handle. I also use a 50/50 simple green and water solution to loosen the felt. I remembered that Mooseman used something called mean green, so I figured that it was probably something like simple green.
I have gotten carpet cleaner with a brush that screws onto the bottle top and dispenses while scrubbing. Are you sure that the threaded hole on yours is for a broom handle?
Moot point for this application, and Tony is talking about an actual push broom head
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I've been using one of those brushes that come attached to the jugs of carpet cleaner. Probably what Tony is talking about, there is a threaded hole in the center for a broom handle. I also use a 50/50 simple green and water solution to loosen the felt. I remembered that Mooseman used something called mean green, so I figured that it was probably something like simple green.
I have gotten carpet cleaner with a brush that screws onto the bottle top and dispenses while scrubbing. Are you sure that the threaded hole on yours is for a broom handle?
Moot point for this application, and Tony is talking about an actual push broom head
It comes on a jug like the attached, as you said moot point, but it does say on it that it should be attached to a broom or mop handle. Whatever the bristles are made of, they don't get clogged with tack like I thought they would, just run the brush against a hard edge and the felt will shoot out.
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Okay, the one on mine was half that size(as was the bottle). Definitively a different beast!
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we still have the hardest time doing fleece with this adhesive, but it is way cleaner than spray tak!
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we still have the hardest time doing fleece with this adhesive, but it is way cleaner than spray tak!
I do dread fleece for this reason.
I'm going to have to dust these off and give 'em another try.
http://dri-tack.com/dritack-pallet.htm (http://dri-tack.com/dritack-pallet.htm)
I remember that they worked better with some fleece than others, but i quit trusting them. Hoodies cost too damn much to spoil.
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Interesting with all the products mentioned.
I just wet a paper towel and rub a couple of times turning the towel. Pulls the lint and wets the glue enough that it don't grab the towel. Lightly dry the excess water with a dry towel stopping before the glue starts grabbing again.
Oh, and I use TexTac and it does for me what everyone says Tekmar does for them, lol. I love the stuff and have for years. Good thing since I have a gallon. :D
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I have a bottle of Tekmar High Tack TB EZ that is designed for Sports Fabrics.
I want to use with cotton T shirts.
Does anyone have any experience with this?
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How do these adhesives work with flash curing?
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I find the waterbase taks work BETTER with flash curing. when we run 1 color jobs on lights and aren't flashing, it seems like the tackyness is less than when running a job where the platens get warm.
Edit: we use Xen-Tac here from Xenon... works great, straight out of the bottle. (Stinks really bad on application tho, but 'burns-off' in the dryer, so the garments don't smell like it.
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How do these adhesives work with flash curing?
Why would you want to do that?
I have to assume, since you're asking about the adhesive and curing together in the same sentence, you mean curing on the printing platen.
Even if aluminum platen, you're running the risk of warping it. Composite is a definite warp (from someone who knows)
If these assumptions are correct, set up a scrap piece of plywood off the press like a small table and cure on that. Toss/replace when warped too bad.
My 2 cents.
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How do these adhesives work with flash curing?
Why would you want to do that?
I have to assume, since you're asking about the adhesive and curing together in the same sentence, you mean curing on the printing platen.
Even if aluminum platen, you're running the risk of warping it. Composite is a definite warp (from someone who knows)
If these assumptions are correct, set up a scrap piece of plywood off the press like a small table and cure on that. Toss/replace when warped too bad.
My 2 cents.
If your assumptions aren't correct, he may just be wondering how this water based stickum holds up to heat, as it comes in two flavors as an aerosol. There are flash friendlier sprays, or ones that can give problems.
You may want to check out the DIY equipment section though, as someone does want to cure plastisol without a real dryer.
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When he added the curing, along with adhesive and didn't mention flash, I almost have to assume we're talking about curing on the platens.
No matter the effect of the stickiness after that, I cannot recommend that to anyone. I know because way back when, I had been doing that and since I know how to make my own platens, had to redo all of them because they warped. This was before my Vastex.
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When he added the curing, along with adhesive and didn't mention flash, I almost have to assume we're talking about curing on the platens.
No matter the effect of the stickiness after that, I cannot recommend that to anyone. I know because way back when, I had been doing that and since I know how to make my own platens, had to redo all of them because they warped. This was before my Vastex.
That's the message I imparted in the thread in DIY today, when a flash was suggested as a "get-by-for-a-while" cure solution.
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Son of a gun. Didn't know there was a DIY board. I see you set him on the path I was talking about. :)
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Sorry, I have to check my English, I am from South Africa. I have these problems sometimes with my American wife.
I meant to ask if the Tekmar works well when you flash the shirt. We obviously cure in the oven. The sprays have a different can for flashed shirts.
How do you clean the adhesive off the aluminium platten?
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I am doing some testing, using the Tekmar TB HV, it works really well. Alan said he can print up to 500 shirts. What do you do then?
Re apply and wait for it to dry? Doesn't this waste time on a automatic press.
Tekmar say that the TB HB is "ideal product for manual printers", they have a TB10 that is used with a spray applicator but is that not going to be as messy as the cans of spray?
We are applying with a small paint roller with the Tekmar diluted. So far so good.
I have to get rid of that horrible spray that gets into every part of the machine and factory.
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I am doing some testing, using the Tekmar TB HV, it works really well. Alan said he can print up to 500 shirts. What do you do then?
Re apply and wait for it to dry? Doesn't this waste time on a automatic press.
If you spry it down with water & give it a scrub with a scrub brush the shirt lint should come off & the glue will still be sticky after. You can add glue again if needed. This really doesn't take much time & the first one is dry by the time you get done with the last. If you put a flash in while doing this they will dry faster but be careful not to burn them.
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All of these products are derivatives of the liquid adhesives used on belt printers from days of yore. The washing system underneath would remove excess ink and re-wet the adhesive and then squeegeeing off at the end. Belt would come up clean and tacky with each index. At any rate when applied properly and maintained correctly most can go for many weeks without having to change platen paper.
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All of these products are derivatives of the liquid adhesives used on belt printers from days of yore. The washing system underneath would remove excess ink and re-wet the adhesive and then squeegeeing off at the end. Belt would come up clean and tacky with each index. At any rate when applied properly and maintained correctly most can go for many weeks without having to change platen paper.
Tony just touched on an important point.
Most of us don't use these directly on the boards, but rather also use a piece of pallet tape (or medium tack vinyl appplication tape) to make eventual cleaning/removal easier.
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the Tekbond stuff is great, cut it about 50 / 50 with water and throw in some food coloring so you can see where it goes when applying with a foam roller.
Taking it off is even easier as detailed above. If you find you get toooooooooo much down and you can trap rats cuz it is so thick just throw some baby powder on it and dust it off with a towel or brush.
You can renew the stuff 10000000 times before you have to add another application.
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better than food coloring are the Elmo Bath tabs...much stronger and cheaper than food coloring.
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better than food coloring are the Elmo Bath tabs...much stronger and cheaper than food coloring.
And you get to watch your boards fizz ;D
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haha, it will bubble a little in the glue, i mix it with water first to make it dissolve better
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Tekmar recommend a spray system for automatic carousel printing.
Do any of you have experience with this?
Is it cleaner than cans?
Does it require a lot of cleaning?
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Tekmar TB-10 is the mutts nutts, I would never go back to spray cans!
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Tekmar recommend a spray system for automatic carousel printing.
Do any of you have experience with this?
Is it cleaner than cans?
Does it require a lot of cleaning?
Our friend Johnny at Killergraphics has been touting an inexpensive touch-up paint sprayer for the application of this stuff.
Here's a post from some years back.
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,483.msg4015.html#msg4015 (http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,483.msg4015.html#msg4015)
Actually, you may find the whole thread informative
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it works, but it makes a mess, just like spray cans...imagine that.
tried it, went back to brushing
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it works, but it makes a mess, just like spray cans...imagine that.
tried it, went back to brushing
Perhaps using a simple cardboard or Masonite mask like I have always suggested with spray cans would solve that.
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honestly, i have tried brushes, rollers, carding, etc with my textac, and I always go back to just using a 32oz clear squirt bottle and a paper towel. Its super fast and leaves no excess glue on the platen.
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honestly, i have tried brushes, rollers, carding, etc with my textac, and I always go back to just using a 32oz clear squirt bottle and a paper towel. Its super fast and leaves no excess glue on the platen.
Recycled Mustard container here and I feel exactly the same as you.
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it's the mist. with a nice sprayer you can adjust most of it out, but you will still get some atomization. It tends to float onto press arms and the carousel too much for my taste.
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Mustard container here too.. the 'French's Spicy Brown' ones with the snap cap work great, doesn't clog, doesn't get nasty.
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Two questions:
1 After you apply do you print straight away or do you have to dry the adhesive by running a flash cycle?
2 Do you use the same adhesive for fleece?
I've ready that there is a problem with fleece so what is the solution, doesn't seem logical to use cans for fleece and liquid adhesive for T shirts.
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this is what works well for us, manual print ...PITA but we ruined tooooo many hoodies under PFP work until we switched to this process....
First coat your pallet, we use a foam roller and a squirt bottle. We have the same roller for years it is well coated with TB so it sticks to everything. We wet it first (water) to kill the sticky. When the surface is sticky it is dry, flash will really speed up the process.
On fleece we clean the pallet and hit it with fresh TB to get it really sticky, trapping rats sticky. throw the fleece over the pallet but do not stick it down yet.
Run the fleece under the flash to pre shrink it, it will shrink some from the heat / polyester fabric so get that done before you print it. you can also just run the fleece through your dryer first to accomplish the same result.
Stick it down and print away.
before you go to the next garment clean the pallet each time to re-new the tack quality...start over again as above.
Like I said it is a PITA and takes all kind of time but the larger you print area is the more important you will find this is to do each time.
Others will have other suggestions that I am sure works for them but this is what works for us after a lot of ruined fleece pieces.
mooseman
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I know we have stuck with web spry for fleece, spry every time & then change the tape when done. I just don't trust WB adhesive of fleece.
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I have not gotten married to one consistent method yet on fleece.
Smallish runs (of which I do many, 36 or less) I'll use the Tekbond which I don't dilute. I'll rejuvenate every one (or two if I'm feeling lucky)
Otherwise, it's off with the pallet tape, and a web spray (using my cardboard mask) for each shirt.
I keep meaning to re-visit my Dri-Tack sheets (http://dri-tack.com/dritack-pallet.htm), which just stick down to the existing stickum. I have sets for adult and youth, and was digging them before I had a few mishaps and then chickened-out.
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web tac for us here on fleece too... they're just too expensive to be worrying about them coming up...
I do cover the arms of the press tho with some kraft paper held with a bit of masking tape. That makes it really easy to clean the arms off after getting done printing them.
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For less than 8 fleece items (Hey, its the desert, we don't get a lot of need for them) I use web spray. For more than 8, I use tack boards.
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For less than 8 fleece items (Hey, its the desert, we don't get a lot of need for them) I use web spray. For more than 8, I use tack boards.
The first person other than me who has these!
Ever had a problem? And why aren't worth putting on the regularly water based-coated boards for less than 8? Seems easier than changing chemistry(and I assume pallet tape).
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I have an 8 station press, so we just kind of set an arbitrary number of one revolution.
I've never had a problem with them, though the "no cleaning" claim is a little false. I do have to take a lint brush and brush them off every now and again.
Roger Jennings sent me 6 of the boards years ago when I first started out and I bought two more a couple of years ago when I upgraded to an auto.
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I have an 8 station press, so we just kind of set an arbitrary number of one revolution.
I've never had a problem with them, though the "no cleaning" claim is a little false. I do have to take a lint brush and brush them off every now and again.
Roger Jennings sent me 6 of the boards years ago when I first started out and I bought two more a couple of years ago when I upgraded to an auto.
Have you found any specific fleece brand or style that didn't grab as well as another?