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screen printing => Newbie => Topic started by: Gilligan on August 16, 2011, 10:54:38 AM
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Ok... So I printed my first shirts last night. Through vinyl vs emulsion :D
Printed some test shirts:
Printing went pretty well... slower than I would like (loading and lining up the shirts). I think I laid down some pretty think ink on the first couple. :) I through it under my flash cure and realized I didn't have my "good" temp gun... ran to my shop and got it. Came back cured the shirt. Stretch test looked good. Wife printed a shirt... still a little think but good. Cured it... again we are going REALLY slowly and my flash is like 5 inches away.
So... I lower the flash to about 3" away. Print and cure a few real shirts fairly well. Print a 3rd (maybe 4th) real shirt and oops... scorched. I of course have spares. So I just decide to all stop (it's midnight anyway).
My questions are... how high should I put the flash from the shirt? Also what "temp" should my flash be. I have a dial on mine. Should I just crank it and time it and trust? When the flash was at 3" I had a hard time trusting my temp gun being that it's at such a low angle and couldn't really get it where I wanted. At 5" I could get it in there pretty good but it was taking minutes to cure. I had the flash set on like 7-8 (of 10).
BTW, washed and dried the test shirts and they all came out fine. :) Oh, and I somehow did get some ink on my shirt I was wearing... surprisingly (to me) that ink didn't come off the shirt when washed.
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OH, also... my print is basically text on top and bottom of the shirt with room in the middle for a pic to be transfered on later (yeah, I know... no real reason to stress over the curing process if I'm gonna heat press it later... but I want to make sure I get the process done right. So my concern with that is that my heat is obviously weaker on the edges of the unit vs the center (where I scorched of course).
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First off, do not get into the habit of doing full cures on your press shirt board(s). Unless aluminum, they run the risk of warping as the repeated time for full cure is much more than for normal flashing. Set up a dedicated stand or table to cure with your flash.
Second, if the shirts are curing significantly more in the center, your flash may well not be large enough for your design size and you may need to either cure in sections, or if the print shape permits, move it back and forth.
As you are learning, though your flash is essentially the same as a heating element on a "real dryer, you have significant problems using it the same. Being open on all four side, it is also very susceptible to air currents.
People who use a flash unit for full cure for long, learn to see a tell-tale wisp of vapor just at full cure and just before scorch (on white)
My advice to all serious newbies who actually get compensated for product, has always been to put every cent in a jar or fund for a real dryer.
Even for printers on skimpy budgets, conveyor dryers pop up surprisingly affordable often because folks upgrading have no room to store the oldies.
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There are some flashes with the sides that are on the sides of it. The metal goes down really close to the pallet. I'm thinking about attaching aluminum sheeting to my flash to mimic that.
Gilligan, look for a conveyor on Digismith, eBay or Craigslist. I got mine from a semi-local dealer. It was used, about 18 years old, that had new panels and new wiring done 3-4 years ago. My buddy is electrician so he checked it out when I was taking it to my basement. I have Atlas 824 that I paid $1500 with delivery included.
Good luck.
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I'm surprised how durable dryers are considering the conditions they live in. An older dryer can often work great and be a good buy.
I wonder if older dryers are less energy efficient though?
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Yeah, I know I "need" a dryer but my bottle neck isn't curing, it's printing. Until I can print faster than I can cure it's not much of an issue. Plus, right now space is an issue.
I am ALWAYS keeping an eye out for great deals... but a dryer would pretty much have to be fairly local being so large. Also I know a bit about electronics so the ins and outs of a dryer is fairly simple.
I have also considered a DIY conveyor. I have some heating coils from an air handler (central air unit) that I pulled out one of my rental units. That might could work with some forced air.
Then there is also this guy's setup:
http://www.t-shirtforums.com/diy-dtg/t147982.html (http://www.t-shirtforums.com/diy-dtg/t147982.html)
(hope you don't mind me linking to that forum)
Here is a video:
DIY T-Shirt Conveyor Dryer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_IqPp3jmf4#ws)
Here is his blog:
http://diydtg.wikispaces.com/Heat+Lamp+Forced+Air+Oven (http://diydtg.wikispaces.com/Heat+Lamp+Forced+Air+Oven)
I'm betting this could be built for under $500 and be as big/good as one worth 10x that.
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Oh, and I know I'm new and cheap but I'm not dummy... I've done my research, I have a curing station setup. I won't be curing on my platens.
I've also toyed with the idea of putting in some metal flashing to keep the heat concentrated and then my AC (yeah, I got AC in my warehouse :p ) won't cause problems.
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Dude, seriously, buy a dryer. Let me rephrase that: invest in your business!
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I agree, just buy a stinkin dryer.
By the time you assemble all the parts and build that thing, you could have had a plug and play model that parts are easily available for.
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I agree, just buy a stinkin dryer.
By the time you assemble all the parts and build that thing, you could have had a plug and play model that parts are easily available for.
I thought about building one, but after talking to my buddy, we released that we might save $200-300 over the one we bought.
If you want to waste 5-6 days to same that much money, sure.
I think that you would rather be printing or learning to print instead of building a dryer.
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Dude, seriously, ... invest in your business!
Which one? My computer repair shop, Web Development, t-shirt/embroidery shop, Cajun Wine Glasses, Database consulting business, Rental Properties, Videography, Video Camera brace manufacturing, OR possibly an air conditioning business and Powder Coating company... more of a silent partner/owner in those last two. Oh and I want to build a strip mall type of thing to put my businesses in and rent some space out as well as maybe even open up a boiled crawfish restaurant.
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Dude, seriously, ... invest in your business!
Which one? My computer repair shop, Web Development, t-shirt/embroidery shop, Cajun Wine Glasses, Database consulting business, Rental Properties, Videography, Video Camera brace manufacturing, OR possibly an air conditioning business and Powder Coating company... more of a silent partner/owner in those last two. Oh and I want to build a strip mall type of thing to put my businesses in and rent some space out as well as maybe even open up a boiled crawfish restaurant.
And you have time for forums......
Niceeeeee
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Dude, seriously, ... invest in your business!
Which one? My computer repair shop, Web Development, t-shirt/embroidery shop, Cajun Wine Glasses, Database consulting business, Rental Properties, Videography, Video Camera brace manufacturing, OR possibly an air conditioning business and Powder Coating company... more of a silent partner/owner in those last two. Oh and I want to build a strip mall type of thing to put my businesses in and rent some space out as well as maybe even open up a boiled crawfish restaurant.
I was referring to the t-shirt/embroidery shop business, but then again, you look like you have everything figured out so this must be a place to go slumming for you. Sarcasm implied and emphasized.
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Hey someone said "diversify" so I did!
You guys clearly are reading WAY too far into my VERY simple post.
I was pointing out that I am spread very thin with all I got going on. I never said NOR implied that I had it all figured out and I was "kicking-ass and taking names" on all of these. Just simply that I do have all of these things going on and have to be selective on where I'm putting my money. With the need to borrow 1/2 to a full Million to get some of these projects rolling things will get tighter before they get better!
Yes, I have time for forums, where do you think I learn how to do all of these things? :)
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They have shopping mall owners' forums?
Gilligan, don't get the wrong idea, but this ain't T-Shirt Forums and the magic mix of high end and hand held stapled organdy screens and sun exposures died at the hands of you-know-who. more than two years ago.
Folks are more than willing to help newbies, but you are in a funny position of almost being over qualified to ask some of the things you do, although I realize that you are just starting to get your screen printing "boots on the ground", and most of your knowledge is theoretical book lernin' type stuff.
As to everyone else, try to remember your first dozen shirts, and take a second to sigh, smile, and help if you can.
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Yep, one that I peruse from time to time is:
http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/32-commercial-real-estate-investing-forum (http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/32-commercial-real-estate-investing-forum)
Well, I do understand this is a bit more sophisticated than t-shirtforums... but then again I did post this in the "NEWBIE" section. If that isn't the place to discuss these types of topics then I completely don't understand.
I agree that I can "fake it" well. :) Hey, that's what you got to do to make it in some of these businesses. :) I do hang out at a "real" screen shop from time to time and try to learn as much as I can before taking ANY steps. This sometimes slows me to essentially a deer in the headlights halt. I read once that procrastination was mostly based in the fear of failure. I quickly thought and dismissed that as my problem because I guess I fake it with even myself sometimes. I have been able to look back/forward and see that IS part of my problem. Too scared to screw it up and get frustrated. Sometimes I push myself to take that first step and go for it... sometimes I just stand at the edge of that cliff and stare.
That first print stroke was one of those moments for me. Most probably were very eager to pull that squeegee... I just sat there looking at it but with my wife with her hands on my back ready to push me off the cliff I finally said "f' it" and said, let's do it. But it was not a comfortable feeling at all. Satisfaction of the print was a good one... but if I could rewind it and do it again I'd still be in the same place. Crazy what your brain can do to you.
Speaking of that and commercial realestate... I had a deal RIGHT by my house that would be PERFECT for a screen print shop (in fact a sign shop is already in there). 8 units, all of them were rented out, spoke to most of the tenants... they were all happy and paying from 450/month to 600/month. The place was selling for 360k... I had multiple people telling me to pull the trigger on it... but I just stood there frozen. Next thing you know it's sold. Now I get to drive by it every day and think, "damn... I should have done it" It's still full and still making whoever bought it at least 4k/month. Frustrating.
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Well, I do understand this is a bit more sophisticated than t-shirtforums... but then again I did post this in the "NEWBIE" section. If that isn't the place to discuss these types of topics then I completely don't understand.
Of course, this is exactly where you should ask these questions on this site. The point that I was making was, that unlike T-Shirt Forums or the pre-Hirsch/Barnes TSPMB, we don't have literally hundreds of active posters in the Newbie section, and you'll have to take what you can get. Many of Scott s and Rodney's crowd started out with home made wooden presses and the kitchen oven so they understand your growing pains more.
With your year or so of reading and watching from the sidelines, you have a leg up, and you don't always fit the profile of a newbie. You've also mixed it up with the big boys, and gained a certain notoriety that betrays your lack of hands-on experience.
In a way, I find you a little like a non-religious Screen Vinnie from the old days, but please don't ask me to elaborate, the reference may have to remain somewhat esoteric though I assure you it is not demeaning.
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Fair enough.
But lets get back to the main question.
How high on the dial or how hot should the temp of the panel be and do I just time it and go with the timing?
I will likely do it in sections as it is easy clearly a top and bottom print that can be done that way.
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I'd probably run it pretty high, but except for an emergency day in a shop many years ago, I've never used a flash to completely cure on purpose.
I am sure that someone here will have more on this.
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Update... I ran it at "HI" about 3" and did it in sections. 30 secs each... one test said I was getting 400* surface temps but I'm not sure that was accurate. My panel is 600-700* so I guess it's possible. I set a timer and restarted and moved the panel. During that time I was able to load a shirt and then during the second cycle I was able to print the shirt and "un stick it".
So I was moving at a decent rate 80 seconds a shirt. I know that's not blazing but having to cure "twice" essentially is the bottle neck. I'll probably try to limit artwork to 12" or less now.
One issue I'm having is the ink is "climbing" the bottom side of the screen... I'm very unsure how this is happening. I took and old shirt and cleaned it but that didn't do much. What can I do about this? Remember I'm using a vinyl sticker as my stencil on the squeegee side. Which is also not working out as the inside of some small s's are coming loose. Simple enough to make another screen though.
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the adhesive from vinyl will not properly bond to the mesh, so you will lose the insides of letters. When you move up to either direct apply emulsion or capillary film, this problem will disappear.
As for the ink climb on the back of the screen, it sounds like you screen tension is loose or or screen itself is shifting a bit. Also, you might have too much pressure on your stroke. It could also be another side effect of the vinyl.
I would move away from vinyl ASAP.
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Yeah, I plan to. I just figured I'd take it one step at a time making things a little less intimidating (see, the procrastination speech above ;) ).
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Yeah, I also tried that when I was baking my own bread. For some reason yeast seemed like a tough step to master...until you realize that unleavened loaves just don't have the texture and variety that I like. I quickly learned to love the extra step of yeast.
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I've never understood the vinyl as stencil thing. First, wouldn't all "gasket" effect be lost by applying it to the squeegee side?
Second, isn't the friction the squeegee against the vinyl exacerbating the peeling off of the centers? Heck, plain old paper stencils adhered on the print side by the ink of the first squeegee stroke is still a viable low cost method. (Still used for numbers by some)
If one has access to a plotter, aren't the ancient tried and true knife cut stencil films a better alternative? http://www.ulano.com/knifecut/ulanocut.htm (http://www.ulano.com/knifecut/ulanocut.htm)
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Crud, I didn't see that it was on the squeegee side. That is a recipe for disaster.
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I guess I went off some bad data in the old memory banks or I just didn't read/understand about the benefits to shirt side.
I'll definitely be making the switch to shirt side and the switch to emulsion won't be long.
But I just got a call for like 10 shirts one color simple design and letters... why not use vinyl to make a quick stencil for that vs the larger process of emulsion... at least for the extremely small shop/guy like me?
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As long as the vinyl stays stuck, and gives you a sharp edged print, and graphics allow, I have no argument against it, especially on a small run like that.
Hopefully you are also getting a price adjusted for the small run.
Many would not even screen print a job that small if they also had access to cad-cut heat seal.
For me, the tipping point is usually 8-9.
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Oh absolutely... I'm probably still pricing myself too low... but I'm still feeling this out. You know you came in too low when the customer says "are you sure?" ha! Next one that came in like that got a little bump in price. ;)
At ~2.50 a linear foot for heat transfer vinyl and the additional weed time per piece (depending on layout) definitely starts to make you weigh the differences. I'm also leaning towards screen printing right now partially because I need to make myself do more screen printing... probably not the best way to get my feet wet but at the same time that's how I roll it seems.
When we had the band it was like "Practice? Isn't that what gigs are for?" ;)
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There are some flashes with the sides that are on the sides of it. The metal goes down really close to the pallet. I'm thinking about attaching aluminum sheeting to my flash to mimic that.
Gilligan, look for a conveyor on Digismith, eBay or Craigslist. I got mine from a semi-local dealer. It was used, about 18 years old, that had new panels and new wiring done 3-4 years ago. My buddy is electrician so he checked it out when I was taking it to my basement. I have Atlas 824 that I paid $1500 with delivery included.
Good luck.
Back when I was curing with the Flash, I took simple heavy aluminum foil and taped (duct tape) 2 'curtains' to hang over the sides draping down to just above the shirt (being cured) to hold in as much heat as possible.
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So what does it mean (if anything) when I heat press my photo transfer onto the shirt and a plastisol "residue" comes off on the teflon sheet?
It's not the whole image just bits of it and the print still looks great.
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What, no segue?
Where did photo transfers suddenly come into this? And what do they have to do with plastisol? I assume that you mean digital laser or ink jet when you say photo transfer.
We have a whole section for heat seal.
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LOL
Sorry... Remember the screen printed part was large and in two sections because of an image to be transfered later in the middle. That's the one! ;)
Yes, inkjet transfer. It sits with plastisol words on top and bottom. So we throw the teflon sheet down and go. After we press it, it all looks fine but a small "ghosting" of some of the text remains on the teflon sheet.
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If your transfer paper is anything like mine (Neenah Jet Soft Stretch Pro), it presses for 25-30 seconds at 375-390 degrees. That's hot and long for plastisol, so it's not crazy that some plastisol is offsetting.
Just make sure to rub the sheet clean to prevent it offsetting right back to the next shirt .
Now, you could also be using this step as your final cure for the plastisol, and getting double duty.
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That's what I figured (yeah, basically same stuff).
Definitely wiping it off and yes, I figured any failure to cure properly will be taken care of here. I was concerned that this was possibly a tell that it wasn't curing completely before.
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I picked up a "meat thermometer" w/ alarm from Target today. Does anyone see anything wrong with putting the probe down on my curing station and having it alert me to 300 degrees.
That would be the temp under the shirt so I would know it would be 300 throughout the ink.
What do you guys think?
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fine except that "under the shirt" is not the same as "under the ink layer"
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*sigh* why do you guys have to make everything so complicated. ;) :p
So... are you saying that because it will take longer to heat up under the shirt or possibly under the shirt will reach that temp BEFORE under the ink?
Either way... if my ink cures at 300 what should I set the temp alarm for if I'm putting it under the shirt (essentially two layers of fabric).
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I'm saying that heat will most likely go through unprinted fabric faster and easier than through the same fabric with an ink layer, possibly a rather thick one from your p-f-p white.
I would love to say a reading of 310 would insure a cure but I'm not sticking my neck out with your set-up. It's just nothing like I have ever done.
Bottom line, wash a shirt three or four times to truly check cure.
As a quick check, you can check for some stretch without cracking.
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*sigh* why do you guys have to make everything so complicated. ;) :p
Because everything is actually complicated?
If you want to get your setting dialed in, or at least as much as possible with your setup, get some temperature strips, place on on the shirt, and print over it, leaving the portion you read visible. This will by far give you the most accurate reading.
And then, of course, you have to consider all the variables, such as garment color, ink color, drafts, etc, and compensate for those.
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But even if you print over the temp strips the part that you can read isn't what is covered in ink. So that really wouldn't tell you what the bottom layer of ink is.
Great, now you guys have ME complicated the issue. :p
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BTW, if it makes you guys feel better I'm feverishly searching for a real dryer.
I have my eyes on a 12' chaparral that is 2 hours away and I'll be going there this coming weekend and my moms-in-law will be coming back from there with a big Budget rental truck after the weekend is up with room to spare! ;)
Got my feelers on a few items in that area and hope to at least get to be picky.
That Chaparral has 3 elements and 2 are bad but they have a replacement (not installed) for one of them. Elements aren't too expensive ($300?) and I'm figuring right now 2 elements would probably be plenty of heat for me.
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But even if you print over the temp strips the part that you can read isn't what is covered in ink.
Temp strips are like a stick thermometer. They have a bottom part that takes the reading and a top part that you read.
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Waiter says "ok sir, I'll taste the soup... where is your spoon"
Old man "Ahh haa!"
;)