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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: screenprintguy on May 15, 2014, 11:43:00 AM
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As we are planning the addition of a new press to our mix, we are tossed up between the decision of 12 or 14 colors. I know some of you guys have added machines within the last couple of years, or others have been around long enough to have been here before. I know there are ongoing arguments between printers and their print styles as to how many colors a press "needs" to be, in order to print a certain color count in one revolution. But for all intents and purposes, let's be realistic in the thinking here. There is obviously a difference in price on a 12 col and a 14 col machine, but has anyone gone the 12 color press route and wished they went for the extra 2 colors? We do some re-curring 8 color spot color runs that currently tie up our DB, which is a 9 color, 1 in head flash, 10 station machine. This print, to be as the "customer" wants, requires 3 revolutions. Moving forward, we would like to be in the single revolution position. We've been printing this customer's merch for almost 7 years now, so trust me when I say, the final look needs to stay where it is and we've done everything under the sun separation wise, and always end up back at the basic for them to be happy. I also know they are just one customer, but since we do this work for them, quite a few other customers have come on with us for similar work. Ok enough about seps, mainly let's get on track about the color count choice on a press. Danny G, you do what looks like a ton of 8 color printing. Do you find that having the 12 col is sufficient, or do you think would go for 14 next time around? Dirk, I know you were looking at 12 originally, but now that you have the 14, do are you stoked knowing you have those extra heads? Any of the other guys please weigh in. Bimmridder, I know you guys have a various count from 16 col's down. What are your thoughts?
Thanks guys!
Mike
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I personally think a 12 color press is perfect for our shop and what we do which consists of at least a few 7 to 8 color jobs per week that we currently do on a 10 color. We've never turned down a job due to our press but have had to print jobs in 2 revolutions, never have needed 3 revolutions before but I can see how some might need that done. When we upgrade, it will be a 12 color because of our experience with the 10 and our capability with it. We just need a few more cool down spots when we do those large color count jobs more than needing another head for printing. Of course a 14 color would be nicer and we'd throw in a 3rd flash with a 14 so depending on the deal we got there is a possibility we could buy a 14 but it's a slim chance. Since there hasn't been anything that we've failed at printing with a 10 I don't see a huge need for a 14 color but I could be persuaded.
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I would have been happy with a 12 and 2 tacanas, I am more happy with a 14, cards just fell my way that day. I would say 99.9% of the time you can print most jobs on the 12 in 1 revolution. Having 2 more is a bonus. We don't do a lot of contract stuff, but I am currently looking into it, and what I have found is that there are FEW that have a 14 color and its a huge bonus for me by being able to print what other guys cant. Also, although you can print 8 colors on the Dback, you can print it BETTER with a bigger press. Cool down positions are AWESOME! IMO! You have to do what fits in your budget, look at it this way, either is better than your current situation. Some advice though, DO NOT GET RID OF YOUR DBACK! Smartest thing I ever did was NOT trade mine in.
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12 is pretty sweet, for us I wouldn't have less than 12 now that we have a 12. IMO buy the largest machine you can swing for at the time. Not everyone's market is the same though. For what its worth even if your not printing jobs that require most of the heads you can at the every least gang up jobs thus having less set up and break downs. I dunno about you guys but when we can put 2-3 jobs on the press at once it seems to be faster to me.
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12 is pretty sweet, for us I wouldn't have less than 12 now that we have a 12. IMO buy the largest machine you can swing for at the time. Not everyone's market is the same though. For what its worth even if your not printing jobs that require most of the heads you can at the every least gang up jobs thus having less set up and break downs. I dunno about you guys but when we can put 2-3 jobs on the press at once it seems to be faster to me.
I had 6 jobs set up on my CH3 and 3 on my DB before I went home the other day, when I came in the next morning jobs were flying out of here fast!
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12 is pretty sweet, for us I wouldn't have less than 12 now that we have a 12. IMO buy the largest machine you can swing for at the time. Not everyone's market is the same though. For what its worth even if your not printing jobs that require most of the heads you can at the every least gang up jobs thus having less set up and break downs. I dunno about you guys but when we can put 2-3 jobs on the press at once it seems to be faster to me.
I had 6 jobs set up on my CH3 and 3 on my DB before I went home the other day, when I came in the next morning jobs were flying out of here fast!
now that's what I'm talkin about!!!!!!!
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I am in the more colors camp. You may not NEED them but I am sure it will come in handy on more than 1 occasion.
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I am in the more colors camp. You may not NEED them but I am sure it will come in handy on more than 1 occasion.
Thanks for the input, I'm thinking that we are leaning towards the bigger of the two for this reason here.
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You have to choose at some point where you draw the line on what you're willing to pay for a press, hence the color limit. Personally I'd buy a 12 color Ch 3 over 16 color Ch 2.
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nothing less than a 14 color
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If money is an issue M&R will build you a 12 color, 16 station.
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If money is an issue M&R will build you a 12 color, 16 station.
So in this configuration, you are basically setting 2 dedicated spots for flashes correct? I guess that's not the worst thing in the world. At least knowing you will always have a flash at either head 2 or 3 depending if you use a lint screen or not. We haven't gotten into the lint screen, but it's a thought since blanks seem to be getting dustier by the week. This isn't a bad idea at all going with 3 flash units, 2 could be in dedicated position eliminating those print heads, and then the third can be a floater. Thanks for the input Lizard!
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Mike, here's my .02 for what it's worth........ As you know our ch3 is a 12 color machine, had we had a large enough spot on the floor for a 14 color we would have gone that route. There's only a handful of times since we've had our press that I wish I had the 2 extra print heads which would have made the job run easier but personally I don't feel like we ever really sacrifice the overall print quality with our 12 color machine. Most of the prints we do are 8-9 color which gives us 2 flashes and a roller screen(we usually don't run a cool down station as I setup fans instead which work for us) and I feel like 99% of the stuff we print looks really good with 9 or less screens. If I had the 14 color I would def. take advantage and print more color on the prints we do but I don't think any of our clients would ever know the difference. Personally I feel like a 12 color machine should be able to do 90% of the work out there and that's 1 revolution. Like Lizard suggested, if cost is a concern which is always is for me I would strongly look at the 12/16 option to add 2 heads later. This will give you some nice flash/cool down stations and the ability to expand in a couple years. I'm going to be replacing my dback this year hopefully with a 3d and that will be another 12 color press. Like I said I think 12 color machine can do 99% of the work out there but we do run into a few times every once in a while where 14 would be ideal. Knowing what I know about your operation I think a 12 color would be a fantastic decision. My other advice is go with the digital package if you can, I kick myself in the ass all the time that our ch3 is not digital. Job recipe would be a dream for me around here..... I know you went to dirks but if you wanted to plan to come out here I'd spend a weekend day with you running some jobs, etc if needed.
Danny
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If money is an issue M&R will build you a 12 color, 16 station.
So in this configuration, you are basically setting 2 dedicated spots for flashes correct?
That and expansion later by buying the other two heads.
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I'm pretty jealous of you S.O.Bs! We were pushing our space limits with a 10 color XL! :( After measuring, the only way we are fitting something bigger than a 10 color is if we go with a oval press...
I would think the main advantage of going up from a 12 color would be setting up multiple jobs at one time. Which is a huge advantage. A 12/16, I think I would drive myself crazy trying to decide where the second "opening" would go! What about a 13/16?
Just curious, on a 12/16 where would people leave open? I would leave 3 open and MAYBE 8, but I would without a doubt drive myself crazy second guessing that 8 though! :)
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We have two 14s, one 10, and one 6. All have different advantages. One is a designated youth machine, one is a designated one color machine where we'll set up six jobs before production starts, and the other two do the rest. On the bigger machines we may also pre-set 2 or more jobs prior to production starts. Less than half a dozen times do we need all those heads for one job. The bigger machines allow for more efficiency.
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I am wondering. If someone is getting a 14 colour just to have the ability to set up multiple jobs, wouldn't it be better to use that money to invest in a future CTS?
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I'm pretty jealous of you S.O.Bs! We were pushing our space limits with a 10 color XL! :( After measuring, the only way we are fitting something bigger than a 10 color is if we go with a oval press...
I would think the main advantage of going up from a 12 color would be setting up multiple jobs at one time. Which is a huge advantage. A 12/16, I think I would drive myself crazy trying to decide where the second "opening" would go! What about a 13/16?
Just curious, on a 12/16 where would people leave open? I would leave 3 open and MAYBE 8, but I would without a doubt drive myself crazy second guessing that 8 though! :)
We are running an early CII 10/16 with 3 & 4 open and 9 & 10 open. Usually leave 1 open for loading issues and print white in 2 however we occasionally use 2 UB whites to boost color. Keep in mind that black in 1 and white in 2 is often a great choice and may eliminate the need for a second flash later on. Flash in 3 cool in 4.
Print WOW in 5-8, flash on 9 cool on 10 then 11-14 WOW for a true 10 color print at speed of 50-60 dozen per hour for most loaders all day long.
If we have a funky print that needs a little TLC with SE printing we sometime print the HD or Clear goop etc. in 14 after a third flash on 12 with a cool on 13 for a SE 8 color job with 3 flashes.
Earlier machines have trouble with multiple job sets up due to picking up ink on bottom of screens with high tension low off contact printing however the CIII takes care of that problem. Print order effects the ink pick up also but I really don't like to set up 3 reds for 3 different jobs and we find it just as quick to set up only 1 job at a time rather that multiple squeegee and flood bars with the same colors.
With CTS and pin/tri-loc registration switch outs are measured in minutes.
My 2 cents,
~Kitson
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Quite possibly but not necessarily. Depends on the business model. If it my first auto I would definitely sacrifice 2 heads for a CTS.
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I am wondering. If someone is getting a 14 colour just to have the ability to set up multiple jobs, wouldn't it be better to use that money to invest in a future CTS?
I really don't think setting up multiple jobs is the real advantage of a large color count machine, the real benefit is being able to say yes to jobs other shops say no to.
~Kitson
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Again depends on the business model. Not the case for us.
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I really don't think setting up multiple jobs is the real advantage of a large color count machine, the real benefit is being able to say yes to jobs other shops say no to.
~Kitson
Totally agree with you on that point. There is also the added benefit of not needing to merge some colors in some jobs. But I guess I was thinking that the need for the full 12 colors on 1 job would be a very small percentage of jobs/usage. The majority of the time the extra colors could be used for multiple job setups. Or maybe just bragging rights:P
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WOW guys, thanks for all of the input. What you guys say means a lot to us! We invested in an I-Image CTS a year and a half ago, so we already have that going for us. Now the second auto is to keep us from having to go to two shifts. 2 shifts is not where we want to be. I see, in the long run, the labor cost out weighing the investment of a second machine. True, the two may not run at the same time all the time, but right now we have days where we suffer bottle knecking, waiting on approvals, or just longer runs, more placements ect tying up the one auto while other quick and easy, or even bigger tougher jobs sitting on carts are waiting. I think we have it nailed down now, 14 co is the way to go. But now, does it need to be 14 co, 16 station, or 12 co 16 station? :o :-\. We truley appreciate so many of you guys who have opened invites for Niki and I to come spend time at your shop and see how ya'll do things, I mentioned Danny's offer, and Niki about jumped out of her shoes, "COLORADO", lol. We've been to Denver once, when I used to be a touring DJ, I headlined a rave out there, spent a couple extra days, went to Breckenridge, area is beautiful!! Her next question was, how far is Denver from Chicago, stop by M&R for a tour on that trip ;D . We really want to get up there too, I'm super stoked at how excited she is about go there to see the facility and the gear in person, I couldn't have prayed harder for a cooler wife! Greg, thanks for jumping in sir, your wisdom is always treasured around here!!! It's because of your articles, and Dave from Bimmridder that we decided to make the jump to CTS when Rich came a knocking about the I-Image, and it's been the best thing we've done so far. I've been doing a whole new layout in the M&R layout software for our shop, using some ideas that some of you guys have posted in the past. We have 6,000 square feet here and have really not taken advantage of it. We are crammed in corners and got to where everyone we know would ask us to store stuff for them in extra space, but that is allllll over now. I've hired a couple extra guys to do nothing but reorganize and trash/recycle anything that people didn't want to come back and get in production downtime. Can't wait to see these changes take place. It took me a little while to get comfortable in the layout software, but now that the basic template is to spec and some gear dropped in place, I think we have a good simple plan to move forward with. Totally excited over here!!!! Thanks again guys for hoping on this thread with your thoughts and ideas. Please keep it coming if you have more.
Mike
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Good luck Mike, Look to the sun, it will lead you in the right direction! ;)
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Good luck Mike, Look to the sun, it will lead you in the right direction! ;)
That's right brother, we always go to the Son for our descisions ;D.
Hey Alex, TCT, thanks for putting that in my head about the, "where to leave the other empty head". Man, you are right, that decision looks to be one that could drive anyone nuts!!!!!!!
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Hey Alex, TCT, thanks for putting that in my head about the, "where to leave the other empty head". Man, you are right, that decision looks to be one that could drive anyone nuts!!!!!!!
Sure thing! ;) Look at it this way- that is a pretty sweet problem to have!
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If your going to be in CO. feel free to stop by our shop too. BTW I know I'm late on this but we bought our 12 color about 5 years ago & looking back now I wish we would have got a 14. I think both Tony and Greg have a good point. I love the option to set up multiple jobs it has its advantages as well as saying yes to something somebody else has to say no to.
Murphy37
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If your going to be in CO. feel free to stop by our shop too. BTW I know I'm late on this but we bought our 12 color about 5 years ago & looking back now I wish we would have got a 14. I think both Tony and Greg have a good point. I love the option to set up multiple jobs it has its advantages as well as saying yes to something somebody else has to say no to.
Murphy37
Thanks Murphy! I really appreciate the invite. Like Alex says, it's time to go nuts figuring out now weather to gave all 14 heads, or designate 2 flash only sites. Normally I would not even think of x'ing 2 heads, but we will need a big dryer to replace the one we have now. It's a huge move for us, but we know its what we need to do.
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I know I change my print order depending on the design a lot so I don't know how much I would like not having the heads. As for the dryer I like our sprint2000/60" its good for two press gang ups for us. But as we do more across the board jobs I kind of wish we had one of the split dryers so we could run two types of jobs at once. On the flip side of that we would not be able to gang up on the dryer belt as mush either so I don't know about that.
Murphy37
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Like Alex says, it's time to go nuts figuring out now weather to gave all 14 heads, or designate 2 flash only sites.
Show of hands(or numbers) let's help Mike out here.... What 2 heads would you remove on a 14 color? I would probably drop 3 and 9.
You could take off head 14 and make it a production beast! ;D
Seriously though, if you can add the heads on in the future that is pretty cool! Also takes the stress of deciding way down...
Either way, I'm jealous!!!
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It would probably be 2 or 3 ( probably 3 ) & 9 here too. But I did run a job last night that if this was the case I would not have been able to do. Then again if it was a 14 I would have still had the 11 heads I needed.
Murphy37
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If you didn't have heads on 1&14 you could run double index with 2 loaders/2 unloaders and do some serious production. Not sure I'd choose this but something to consider as well.
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This is a great topic.
Depending on the press, I'd be looking hard at a 12/16 type of configuration, with open heads for flashes and/or cool downs. But if the cost is peanuts (relatively) for the two missing heads than may as well get 'em.
The more I've watched our little shop grow and learned about production the more clearly I see the need for what I used to think were excessively large presses. Unless I'm forced to, I doubt I would get less than 14 heads when upgrading. Much of this is related to HSA printing. I don't know where the PVC free thing will ultimately go but if HSA becomes the new standard and doesn't further develop in opacity we're all going to need a lot more print heads and flashes going on. Knowing what I know now I would have moved the shop into a space that could accommodate a modular oval press. TCT wasn't joking about people in Europe needing 20 station machines.
As far as where to put those open heads I'd probably say 1 head every 3 print heads. Encourages a minimum of 2 colors WOW, max 3, sounds like a happy place for most jobs in terms of consistency in production and ease of setup with art and on press.
Danny has a hell of a good point. I would give a nut to be able to double index in here later this week. Perhaps the ovals with the lift up heads have the best layout, you can make load/offload wherever you want. Can you do this on Sroque and MHM carousels though, simply high lift heads and convert to a double index setup? That's a major advantage to have comfortable stations for 2x index rather than having your crew working around the flip up heads and banging knuckles all day.
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MHM lifting the head.
MHM S-Type Xtreme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsbpeWG1VRI#ws)
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Nice. I once new a shop that would take two heads off the press & do this when they got 100k + orders. This would make that much easier. I like Danny's idea because you could still use one dryer.
Murphy37
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Wow, so the extreme has high lift and crazy high lift.
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when I used to be a touring DJ
Wait a minute back up. Off subject but your not getting off that easy.
What was your alias. Do you still kick around the 1s & 2s?
"Noooobody can mix like mix master Mike"
Murphy37
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TCT wasn't joking about people in Europe needing 20 station machines.
Dude, I just saw pics from a install in Indonesia I believe.... 56 station, 18 colors, 17 flashes! :-[ Thing is a beast! I can find pics if you guys want, but I must warn you, it's not blue :o
Danny has a good idea with the double indexing also, but then we are taking HIGH volume to make that profitable. What I was saying with the 3 open loading/unloading positions is: 1 person unloads, 1 throws the shirt on, 1 actually positions it and smooths it. Again HIGH production setting, fun to play the "what if" game though!
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when I used to be a touring DJ
Wait a minute back up. Off subject but your not getting off that easy.
What was your alias. Do you still kick around the 1s & 2s?
"Noooobody can mix like mix master Mike"
Murphy37
Mix Master Mike Intro, Glasgow 99 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fdj1AfFVa4#)
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Dude, I just saw pics from a install in Indonesia I believe.... 56 station, 18 colors, 17 flashes! :-[ Thing is a beast! I can find pics if you guys want, but I must warn you, it's not blue :o
You have my attention.:P
Some T-shirt porn please.
You can always pant it BLUE.
Murphy37
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Oh man, I'm gonna regret mentioning that, huh. Lol
Ps, didn't make the hights of the Beasti Boys like mixmaster Mike. Different genre all together. But it was 20 years of bass :P
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Oh man, I'm gonna regret mentioning that, huh. Lol
Ps, didn't make the hights of the Beasti Boys like mixmaster Mike. Different genre all together. But it was 20 years of bass :P
I can see mike spinning that dback back and fourth like turn table. wait till you get that second press, then you will be spinning the 1's and 2's! 8)
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Hey, 140 BPM is a good marching beat for loading a press:)
Murphy37
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Lol, you guys are awesome! How did you know 140 bpm was my production tempo. Ill send y'all a butt load of cds if you want.http://www.maliciousrecordings.com/producers.htm (http://www.maliciousrecordings.com/producers.htm)
http://www.discogs.com/artist/57072-Malicious-Mike (http://www.discogs.com/artist/57072-Malicious-Mike)
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There are a couple mix sets from my old late night weekend radio show I had in Tampa for 10 years. You can stream or download
http://soundcloud.com/malicious-mike/malicious-mike-oldschool-tribute-mix-live-on-the-xfactory-tampa-florida?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=mshare&utm_medium=email&utm_content=http://soundcloud.com/malicious-mike/malicious-mike-oldschool-tribute-mix-live-on-the-xfactory-tampa-florida (http://soundcloud.com/malicious-mike/malicious-mike-oldschool-tribute-mix-live-on-the-xfactory-tampa-florida?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=mshare&utm_medium=email&utm_content=http://soundcloud.com/malicious-mike/malicious-mike-oldschool-tribute-mix-live-on-the-xfactory-tampa-florida)
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Lol, you guys are awesome! How did you know 140 bpm was my production tempo. Ill send y'all a butt load of cds if you want.[url]http://www.maliciousrecordings.com/producers.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.maliciousrecordings.com/producers.htm[/url])
[url]http://www.discogs.com/artist/57072-Malicious-Mike[/url] ([url]http://www.discogs.com/artist/57072-Malicious-Mike[/url])
I can dig it. I know some of the guys here at the shop would too.
Murphy37
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Malicious Mike :o
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Really?
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(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/126s/45416387.jpg)
new avatar!
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I told you I was gonna regret makin this know. But with that said. The past is the past. I've said it before, I used to lead a troubled life and lifestyle. :o :P
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Good times Malicious Mike, no harm, we all grow wiser with age! Gonna steal that avatar if you don't use it first though!
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That's ne and my homie Dj Rose around 2002 at a rave in Charlotte
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MHM lifting the head.
MHM S-Type Xtreme ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsbpeWG1VRI#ws[/url])
That would be great to have on large runs. print the front on one side and the back on the other.
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Dude, I just saw pics from a install in Indonesia I believe.... 56 station, 18 colors, 17 flashes! :-[ Thing is a beast! I can find pics if you guys want, but I must warn you, it's not blue :o
You have my attention.:P
Some T-shirt porn please.
You can always pant it BLUE.
Murphy37
Sorry I got distracted today, here in Minnesota there was this BIG bright warm thing in the sky.... Then we all realized it was the SUN and we have just forgot what it looks like! So I was outside all day! Below is the pic I was talking about, all the way to the right in the pic is the 17 flashes. Let's see, 17 x 5K is... Wow! That is a damn press sitting right there!
(http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab14/twincitytees/10313999_10203591137999809_7720893043225236210_n_zps00fcc4ca.jpg) (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/twincitytees/media/10313999_10203591137999809_7720893043225236210_n_zps00fcc4ca.jpg.html)
Oh and Mike, I'll take a CD! :)
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;D:P;D:P
Nice.
Murphy37
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Holy flash stash batman! Rich was telling me about a super huge alpha that was being built to go overseas to a big plant a couple weeks ago. i think he said somewhere between 50 an 56 stations, thats huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge. can you imagine having something like that!
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Holy flash stash batman! Rich was telling me about a super huge alpha that was being built to go overseas to a big plant a couple weeks ago. i think he said somewhere between 50 an 56 stations, thats huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge. can you imagine having something like that!
That press is huge but if you think they will run 2 maybe even 4 jobs on it (2 jobs on each side like the MHM video) its not that big and the cost of one of those over 4 other presses is huge in savings I would guess. Plus the room savings. Wolfgang, the MHM tech, was telling me about a 27 or something like that color press over seas. It was a round press like we all have. That is huge for a carousel press and would take up a ton of space.
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So what are common dryer positions next to an oval?
Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
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Here's what these guys have as a dryer placement. I've seen a video where the guys at Castle are running their Alpha at double index so 2 loaders 2 pullers, talk about some production output at a comfortable click!
(http://www.keltexapparel.com/images/Alpha8-10L.jpg)
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That's how we did it at Precision Screen Printing. 2 loaders, two unloaders, one person flipping the shirts, two on the dryer. 3,000,000 shirts F/B one color on 2 machines.
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Double indexing sounds wonderful, until you have to pay AT LEAST 2 more employees, and then deal with 2 more employees and their problems. If you've already got them then it's not a big deal but it would be for us and shops like us.
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Double indexing sounds wonderful, until you have to pay AT LEAST 2 more employees, and then deal with 2 more employees and their problems. If you've already got them then it's not a big deal but it would be for us and shops like us.
I hear that, I don't think we would be any where near that type of running for a while, but I guess a place like Castle totally makes sense, maybe even a Danny G shop, or Tony P shop with all the extra sets of hands and the need for super quick output on huge 10k plus orders. I want to see our 300 peice multi location 8 color jobs move 2-3 times faster through our system right now and I'll be stoked! I think right now, if I had to set up jobs with double the set ups on one machine to do the double index, I'd be asking for trouble lol. Imagine, you have a 6 color job, that you want to double index, so now you have to make sure those 2, 6 color set ups come off looking identical. Not saying I can't do it, but that would be a stressor my mind wouldn't handle well right now, lol. I'd rather 2 jobs running from 2 different press, and let one press fly like the wind while the more simple job is trucking along on the DB, if ya know what I mean. ;D
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Double indexing sounds wonderful, until you have to pay AT LEAST 2 more employees, and then deal with 2 more employees and their problems. If you've already got them then it's not a big deal but it would be for us and shops like us.
I hear that, I don't think we would be any where near that type of running for a while, but I guess a place like Castle totally makes sense, maybe even a Danny G shop, or Tony P shop with all the extra sets of hands and the need for super quick output on huge 10k plus orders. I want to see our 300 peice multi location 8 color jobs move 2-3 times faster through our system right now and I'll be stoked! I think right now, if I had to set up jobs with double the set ups on one machine to do the double index, I'd be asking for trouble lol. Imagine, you have a 6 color job, that you want to double index, so now you have to make sure those 2, 6 color set ups come off looking identical. Not saying I can't do it, but that would be a stressor my mind wouldn't handle well right now, lol. I'd rather 2 jobs running from 2 different press, and let one press fly like the wind while the more simple job is trucking along on the DB, if ya know what I mean. ;D
We are on the same page. Our shops mirror each other a lot. You guys do more WB stuff but the makeup of the job and quantities are very similar. The need to do 5-10 multi-colored jobs per day as fast as possible is what makes us our money.
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Ah, perpendicular. That could work for running multiple, smaller dryers, the sprint in that pic looks tiny next to that oval.
I was just brainstorming on this. If you could run a larger, 32'-40' overall length, dryer parallel it seems like it could be possible to get a lot more color and station capacity out of a space with an oval. I also really, really like a modular option to add heads. And, you could still put a smaller carousel on the point of the dryer.
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I have seen dryers set up all ways with ovals. One at the end like in the pic Mike posted,. 2 dryers, one at each end, so the press and dryers form a "U". That setup would usually be printing 2 jobs, one job on one side of the oval another job on the other side. Think of it as 2 sperate linear presses.
I have seen a oval set up to parallel a dryer. This is actually the way we would need to set it's up if we added another press.
Theoretically if you had a TON of money you could set up a oval on each side of a dryer and a carousel type at the end... 3 presses 1 dryer. The dryer would have to be wide as all hell but think of the ROI on that dryer! ;D
Sorry the post got a little derailed Mike, to get it back on track- I'm sticking with removing #3 and #9. Final answer! ;D
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2 heads before flash. Sometimes you want black/dark down before ubase.
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I have seen dryers set up all ways with ovals. One at the end like in the pic Mike posted,. 2 dryers, one at each end, so the press and dryers form a "U". That setup would usually be printing 2 jobs, one job on one side of the oval another job on the other side. Think of it as 2 sperate linear presses.
I have seen a oval set up to parallel a dryer. This is actually the way we would need to set it's up if we added another press.
Theoretically if you had a TON of money you could set up a oval on each side of a dryer and a carousel type at the end... 3 presses 1 dryer. The dryer would have to be wide as all hell but think of the ROI on that dryer! ;D
Sorry the post got a little derailed Mike, to get it back on track- I'm sticking with removing #3 and #9. Final answer! ;D
TON of money, man don't we all wish we had that huh!!! Hit the lotto, set up a super shop, buy the best money can buy of all gear, give good folks good jobs, and have a ton of fun! 3 and 9 huh? hmmm, Making a little layout in Illustrator right now. 3 totally makes sense for sure!!!!
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2 heads before flash. Sometimes you want black/dark down before ubase.
That makes good sense. One of my reasons for #3 is that way you have the option of setting up 2 jobs that require a underbase. Not to double index, but more like seeing up multiple jobs in the am or something.
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2 heads before flash. Sometimes you want black/dark down before ubase.
That makes good sense. One of my reasons for #3 is that way you have the option of setting up 2 jobs that require a underbase. Not to double index, but more like seeing up multiple jobs in the am or something.
My flash is in head 3. Its good for a few things
Black, white flash
This is good for any color that is not underbased. just makes sense to flash another color at the same time as the underbase
discharge underbase, white flash
This one is great for things like Glow in the dark when you have only one flash or if you want a brighter underbase and don't want to PFPF your underbase.
Lint screen
never used one but having flash in head three makes it possible.
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If I was getting a press made and wanted to have open heads I would do head 3 and then an open one ever 3 heads. I don't like printing more than 3 colors wet on wet. Honestly I would only want head 3 open and then one moveable flash. But how much would that really save me. I see my head 3 as spare parts.
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2 heads before flash. Sometimes you want black/dark down before ubase.
That makes good sense. One of my reasons for #3 is that way you have the option of setting up 2 jobs that require a underbase. Not to double index, but more like seeing up multiple jobs in the am or something.
Yep, that too. Also, being able to have your machine run in both directions helps with this as well. We'll frequently setup jobs in both directions
to take advantage of flashes/using cool down heads as printing colors for jobs in the opposite direction, etc.
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our flash stays in head 3. i use black first a lot on spot color jobs.
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I have seen dryers set up all ways with ovals. One at the end like in the pic Mike posted,. 2 dryers, one at each end, so the press and dryers form a "U". That setup would usually be printing 2 jobs, one job on one side of the oval another job on the other side. Think of it as 2 sperate linear presses.
I have seen a oval set up to parallel a dryer. This is actually the way we would need to set it's up if we added another press.
Theoretically if you had a TON of money you could set up a oval on each side of a dryer and a carousel type at the end... 3 presses 1 dryer. The dryer would have to be wide as all hell but think of the ROI on that dryer! ;D
Sorry the post got a little derailed Mike, to get it back on track- I'm sticking with removing #3 and #9. Final answer! ;D
TON of money, man don't we all wish we had that huh!!! Hit the lotto, set up a super shop, buy the best money can buy of all gear, give good folks good jobs, and have a ton of fun! 3 and 9 huh? hmmm, Making a little layout in Illustrator right now. 3 totally makes sense for sure!!!!
what you save by removing heads is really not worth it. There a a lot of changes in ink that are coming. What is right today will be wrong tomorrow. Leave the heads on and just flip the screen holder up for flash stations. If you want to discuss I will be happy to call..
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i kinda agree with rich, I would rather have the head just in case.
also, what are these ink changes you speak of?
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ink changes? you cant say that and leave us hanging...
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I think I am just going to start printing with latex house paint...it's cheap, the color mixing is really cheap and it's easy cleanup. ;)
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ink changes? you cant say that and leave us hanging...
That's what I am saying. Come on Rich.
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Just taking a guess but, all plastisol ink will be off limits (EPA) & we all now have to use HSA or straight old school WB. lol.:'(
Murphy37
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ink changes? you cant say that and leave us hanging...
That's what I am saying. Come on Rich.
At my daughters graduation. Will elaborate later.
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Oh & stick with all heads. You might be kicking yourself later if you don't.
Murphy37
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... if for no other reason than another poster said.. spare parts.
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I still contend that our 8/12 press we had in the beginning was so far and above a better press than an 8/10. If you have a budget you can't go over, an 8/12 will do so much more than an 8/10 it's not even funny. There were so many jobs that we did on the 8/12 with one revolution that on a 10 station would have been revolved. I know the consensus is to go ahead and pay for the 2 print heads but if someone has a budget to follow strictly the 2 extra print heads aren't that cheap and someone can get a press that is way more than just "marginally" more capable and functional. If 5-10K isn't an issue then of course buy the print heads but I just know how we benefited with the 8/12 and I don't think that option should be discounted so quickly. I won't go so far as to say the 8/12 is almost as good as the 10/12, but it's far closer to a 10/12 than it is an 8/10.
I think a 12/16 would be unstoppable at our shop. We'd never run revolver mode ever again just like a 14/16 would afford us but it would be cheaper and just as versatile for the way we do things.
And maybe we'll be forced to use HSA's in the future and we'll all need huge machines to do what most of us do with plastisol with far less. A simple 6 color plastisol job on darks will turn into a 10 color because we have to have 2 screens for the red, blue and yellow in the design and we'll have to flash between all of them so we'll be running 2 revolutions on our 16 color monster machines. Then it will force the little guys out of business and leave a much easier industry to regulate and although the manufacturers will be selling larger machines they'll sell far fewer heads overall and then there will be two manufacturers to choose from and who knows what else will happen due to regulatory BS...CAN'T WAIT.
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Look at this guy ;D
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They should have put some powder on that head :). I'm thinking I need to do that with mine. Too many grey hairs and now I've got weird bald spots where my hair is falling out. I have 3 spots about the size of a quarter where it's completely bald.
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Alan, those spots are probably from beating your head against the wall
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sounds like the mange to me. I'd get that checked out. ;)
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MANGE, HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
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You guys are funny today
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HA HA HA MALICIOUS MIKE!
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/126s/45416387.jpg)
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Better go see Dr. Pendike!!!
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HEY! don't pick on us bald guys... Al, it's from too many U-Turns beneath the sheets :o
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ink changes? you cant say that and leave us hanging...
in the near future HSA and water base inks will be up to 60% of the market place. Other than the states this is the norm already. As such you may be doing things in the first couple stations that are not the norm today. Polyester is becoming more and more common and the brushed version will need stamping with something like our I-kiss unit that knocks down the fibulation before putting down a blocker. This takes a head to do so as it fits in like a in head flash. The savings on removing a head is around $1,800.00. To add the head is more like $5,000.00. It really does not make sense to spend for one head later the entire amount you would save by removing three heads now. Just a FYI.
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ink changes? you cant say that and leave us hanging...
in the near future HSA and water base inks will be up to 60% of the market place. Other than the states this is the norm already. As such you may be doing things in the first couple stations that are not the norm today. Polyester is becoming more and more common and the brushed version will need stamping with something like our I-kiss unit that knocks down the fibulation before putting down a blocker. This takes a head to do so as it fits in like a in head flash. The savings on removing a head is around $1,800.00. To add the head is more like $5,000.00. It really does not make sense to spend for one head later the entire amount you would save by removing three heads now. Just a FYI.
Well crap, since you put it that way, 14 all the way then! lol :P
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Sort of what I was hinting around about on the white ink thread. 80% of what we print is aqueous and not subject to so many tenets, postulations and theorems that apply to non aqueous print systems. Things are changing fast. Now that new polyesters,dry fits, and blends are being developed (after being stagnant for more than 15 ys), the HSAs are being refined as we speak.
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Ok Tony, now ya done did it. Bustin out with the big ole words on us huh :o ;D