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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: TCT on February 08, 2014, 06:54:14 PM
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The new Workhorse auto and it looks like all the new MHM's are using a tablet for the main control(I think MHM made a brilliant move still having a control panel under the dock). Am I missing something here? What is the HUGE advantage of this? Why would you ever remove the tablet from the press? If you remove it to say enter production data, well then your employees can't run the press.
I am not trying to come off negative with this post, I just wonder if I am missing something? I am a HUGE fan of technology, I like touch screens and LOVE the idea of a digital readout, but what is the advantage of a tablet to run the press?
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I think that it's less expensive to fix the control panel. Say $500 to get a new tablet, download the program, back up and running within say an hour. That's what I got (understood) from workhorse. I'm sure there are other advantages.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
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OK, I did not think of that!
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Yep that would be sweet right now. Part of my PLC on my sportsman went blank last week. When I called in it sounded like it was going to be 2k. Luckily even with it out you can usually guess where the buttons use to be.
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I thought the advantage of the tablet was for video conferencing.
When something is down, you can take the tablet to where the problem is and they can talk you through the solution.
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Tablets are really their to increase owners morale. Giving owners the false sensation that employees are working rather then checking their personal email while standing at the press.
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Reliability is one of the strongest advantages of using a tablet as a controller. A lot of time and money was spent to assure the user the product would last. We get to piggy back on that for screen printing applications. The tablet controller has a lot more capability than we use currently. Look for more and more use of that capability in the future. Updates can and will be sent through the WiFi feature just like Windows or Adobe.
Back to the original question, I can't remember having the tablet docked (easily removable), coming up in design discussions. It is now though. Our tablet controller is in a case, but it's not hard wired in place either.
Just my .02
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I get what you mean Paul, almost like an attempt to future proof that part of the press. It is sounding cooler now and a bit more practical when you mention the possible addition of screen printing apps(how about a TSB app!) right at the press there.
I have to say though the idea of using it to diagnose a problem via video chat from the tablet it self seems excessive. I would think if you are using the tablet to video chat/diagnose then you couldn't use it to control or test the press.... Plus, seems everyone these days have these things in their pockets- a Smartphone! I used mine one time to Skype to diagnose a error light, extremely convenient! If you are one of the 11 people out there that don't have a smartphone no need to worry, you can probably get the schematics sent to your thermal fax machine while listening to your favorite cassette! ;D ;D
Either way, I am beginning to understand the reasoning behind tablet control now!
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Another benefit to this type of tech is the ability (maybe not there yet) to remotely see real time production data. Larger shops can benefit from this watching multi able presses or equipment at the same time, realistically you could be on a cruse in the Caribbean and see what is happening in the shop.
It could also be integrated into front end programs to let sales staff see where the product is in production. This can also help identify production problems and streamline the whole process. In theory you could download the production data each month and see exactly how much was done on each press down the the second.
Something metioned at the show at the booth was posiably being able to order supplies right from the tablet.
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Another benefit to this type of tech is the ability (maybe not there yet) to remotely see real time production data. Larger shops can benefit from this watching multi able presses or equipment at the same time, realistically you could be on a cruse in the Caribbean and see what is happening in the shop.
It could also be integrated into front end programs to let sales staff see where the product is in production. This can also help identify production problems and streamline the whole process. In theory you could download the production data each month and see exactly how much was done on each press down the the second.
Something metioned at the show at the booth was posiably being able to order supplies right from the tablet.
I see what you are saying! Cool possibilities!
One HUGE flaw in your post though, "you could be on a cruse in the Caribbean and see what is happening in the shop" Um ya we are screen printers, it would be more like a canoe on the river... ;D
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presses should be going to tablets...period. It faster/easier to update software, they are cheaper than a proprietary print panel, and they are replaceable.
The screen on our embroidery machine is on it's way out...quote from SWF---$4800. Sorry, ain't gonna happen for that price. I found a local screen repair shop that can do it for $1000...the screen alone is $850.
I can but 2 great tablets for that price.
It's a HUGE selling feature for me.
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A friend has a couple new packaging machines and it helps him get things fixed , he had a tech in Florida last week able to control and check his machine out, at $1000 a day +travel he has seen a saving.
On another note I feel we are really lucky with screen machines they seem pretty trouble free compared to some industries.
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One gotcha for me on the new Workhorse press is that the operating system 'behind the scenes' is Windows! WTF Workhorse?
The last thing I want to worry about is service packing/patching/virus scanning/etc my press.
while I like the direction of going to general purpose computers for industrial control, at least pick a stable OS and locked down environment.
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ha, nothing is locked down anymore. there are becoming more and more threats to android and ios all the time.
That being said, this isn't a personal use system which should limit the risk of a virus.
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One gotcha for me on the new Workhorse press is that the operating system 'behind the scenes' is Windows! WTF Workhorse?
The last thing I want to worry about is service packing/patching/virus scanning/etc my press.
while I like the direction of going to general purpose computers for industrial control, at least pick a stable OS and locked down environment.
agreed here, Windoze should not be an OS for a device. The amount of calls to the kernel (going in and out to run and check the subroutines) is three times as high as in Linux. Calling three times as many subroutines is introducing a three times higher likelihood of something going wrong. The MHM is running on Linux and has proved to be a pretty stable platform (we have to reboot about once a quarter). While Windows has made big strides in becoming more stable (we are not talking XP or Win7 here, there are versions specifically designed for this purpose), I would have a really hard time buying anything running on Windows.
pierre
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That being said, this isn't a personal use system which should limit the risk of a virus.
tell that to Target ;)
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and nieman marcus...or healthcare.gov
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One gotcha for me on the new Workhorse press is that the operating system 'behind the scenes' is Windows! WTF Workhorse?
The last thing I want to worry about is service packing/patching/virus scanning/etc my press.
while I like the direction of going to general purpose computers for industrial control, at least pick a stable OS and locked down environment.
agreed here, Windoze should not be an OS for a device. The amount of calls to the kernel (going in and out to run and check the subroutines) is three times as high as in Linux. Calling three times as many subroutines is introducing a three times higher likelihood of something going wrong. The MHM is running on Linux and has proved to be a pretty stable platform (we have to reboot about once a quarter). While Windows has made big strides in becoming more stable (we are not talking XP or Win7 here, there are versions specifically designed for this purpose), I would have a really hard time buying anything running on Windows.
pierre
There are a lot of reasons running anything industrial on a pad is a bad idea. Not trying to knock any ones product but this is not a good idea.
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDUBYABBBBBBBBBEEEEEEEEE is gonna drive by your shops and hack your wifi's and cycle your presses.
LOL
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Maybe remote operation wouldn't be such a bad thing. Alan could log in and set us up for great one-hit whites. Tony could log in and give us seamless WB/DC blends, Omar could log in and bump up the speed to ~ 2000/hour, Pierre could log in and give us some award winning prints......... Maybe 244 could log into my 24x14 1981 Hix and make it run like a Super Sprint.......
....Ahh the future.
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One gotcha for me on the new Workhorse press is that the operating system 'behind the scenes' is Windows! WTF Workhorse?
The last thing I want to worry about is service packing/patching/virus scanning/etc my press.
while I like the direction of going to general purpose computers for industrial control, at least pick a stable OS and locked down environment.
agreed here, Windoze should not be an OS for a device. The amount of calls to the kernel (going in and out to run and check the subroutines) is three times as high as in Linux. Calling three times as many subroutines is introducing a three times higher likelihood of something going wrong. The MHM is running on Linux and has proved to be a pretty stable platform (we have to reboot about once a quarter). While Windows has made big strides in becoming more stable (we are not talking XP or Win7 here, there are versions specifically designed for this purpose), I would have a really hard time buying anything running on Windows.
pierre
We didn't invent using windows as a controller OS. If it was that problematic, it wouldn't be as big or growing as fast as it is. We're just riding the wave.
And if you're afraid of WiFi, you can turn it off.
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I would just hope your ducks are in a row on that one because it could be a total disaster if it locks up or crashes often.
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I would just hope your ducks are in a row on that one because it could be a total disaster if it locks up or crashes often.
Thanks for your concern Brandt. The technology is not "disaster technology" and we've tested our product. I think you can ease your mind that we've got our "duck in a row."
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I am starting to come around to this tablet idea after this discussion. BUT I would say the ONLY OS I would feel comfortable with would be Linux, maybe google/android maybe.
Not trying to knock it here Paul, but from a user's standpoint I would be nervous to have a press that is supposed to make my business money running on Windows OS... I said it the day I saw it at ISS, Workhorse made a huge leap forward with this press. If you guys feel confident and happy with Windows OS then that is great! You may want to put some "marketing" or "educating" focus on the stability of it to us, the end users. As a printer if I were looking at that exact press, that would be on my top 3 question/concerns list...
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I would just hope your ducks are in a row on that one because it could be a total disaster if it locks up or crashes often.
Thanks for your concern Brandt. The technology is not "disaster technology" and we've tested our product. I think you can ease your mind that we've got our "duck in a row."
What happens when Windows locks up and I assure you it will at some point. Press stop? Or does it freak out like the playtex presses did? I only bring this up because its a fair question.
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MHM is Linux.
Either way, the average joe can typically reinstall Windows in worst case. PLC's not so easy...
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I am starting to come around to this tablet idea after this discussion. BUT I would say the ONLY OS I would feel comfortable with would be Linux, maybe google/android maybe.
Not trying to knock it here Paul, but from a user's standpoint I would be nervous to have a press that is supposed to make my business money running on Windows OS... I said it the day I saw it at ISS, Workhorse made a huge leap forward with this press. If you guys feel confident and happy with Windows OS then that is great! You may want to put some "marketing" or "educating" focus on the stability of it to us, the end users. As a printer if I were looking at that exact press, that would be on my top 3 question/concerns list...
I'm not sure about Linux, but we tested Android. Android was too unstable for us.
Here's a fact. 95% of the worlds ATM's run a Windows OS HMI. They handle cash, talk to banks and are secure.
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There are a lot of reasons running anything industrial on a pad is a bad idea. Not trying to knock any ones product but this is not a good idea.
Care to elaborate? It's been my understanding that PLC's were the control of choice due to harsh industrial environments; vibrations, bad air,
heat/cold, etc, that an actual computer couldn't handle. With the advent of SSDs and no-moving-parts computers I would think that the majority
of those concerns have been invalidated. This is speaking strictly from an hardware angle of course.
Software wise, while a virus infecting your press would be ridiculous, unless specifically designed to do so the likelihood of any
random virus causing damage or a misbehaving press is pretty much nil.
And it's software to control a press, not a desktop computer. You won't have employees surfing to sketchyass websites opening
questionable email attachments, which is the major vector for infection. Granted if it is networked (and who could resist that) you have
the possibility of something spreading to it that way.
New ideas are always great, and anybody that has been stuck with a dead PLC can appreciate reinstalling software locally.
Time will tell I suppose.
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There are a lot of reasons running anything industrial on a pad is a bad idea. Not trying to knock any ones product but this is not a good idea.
Care to elaborate? It's been my understanding that PLC's were the control of choice due to harsh industrial environments; vibrations, bad air,
heat/cold, etc, that an actual computer couldn't handle. With the advent of SSDs and no-moving-parts computers I would think that the majority
of those concerns have been invalidated. This is speaking strictly from an hardware angle of course.
Software wise, while a virus infecting your press would be ridiculous, unless specifically designed to do so the likelihood of any
random virus causing damage or a misbehaving press is pretty much nil.
And it's software to control a press, not a desktop computer. You won't have employees surfing to sketchyass websites opening
questionable email attachments, which is the major vector for infection. Granted if it is networked (and who could resist that) you have
the possibility of something spreading to it that way.
New ideas are always great, and anybody that has been stuck with a dead PLC can appreciate reinstalling software locally.
Time will tell I suppose.
Like!!!
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There are a lot of reasons running anything industrial on a pad is a bad idea. Not trying to knock any ones product but this is not a good idea.
Care to elaborate? It's been my understanding that PLC's were the control of choice due to harsh industrial environments; vibrations, bad air,
heat/cold, etc, that an actual computer couldn't handle. With the advent of SSDs and no-moving-parts computers I would think that the majority
of those concerns have been invalidated. This is speaking strictly from an hardware angle of course.
Software wise, while a virus infecting your press would be ridiculous, unless specifically designed to do so the likelihood of any
random virus causing damage or a misbehaving press is pretty much nil.
And it's software to control a press, not a desktop computer. You won't have employees surfing to sketchyass websites opening
questionable email attachments, which is the major vector for infection. Granted if it is networked (and who could resist that) you have
the possibility of something spreading to it that way.
New ideas are always great, and anybody that has been stuck with a dead PLC can appreciate reinstalling software locally.
Time will tell I suppose.
Like!!!
I would also be interested, or *Like* also.....
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There are a lot of reasons running anything industrial on a pad is a bad idea. Not trying to knock any ones product but this is not a good idea.
Care to elaborate? It's been my understanding that PLC's were the control of choice due to harsh industrial environments; vibrations, bad air,
heat/cold, etc, that an actual computer couldn't handle. With the advent of SSDs and no-moving-parts computers I would think that the majority
of those concerns have been invalidated. This is speaking strictly from an hardware angle of course.
Software wise, while a virus infecting your press would be ridiculous, unless specifically designed to do so the likelihood of any
random virus causing damage or a misbehaving press is pretty much nil.
And it's software to control a press, not a desktop computer. You won't have employees surfing to sketchyass websites opening
questionable email attachments, which is the major vector for infection. Granted if it is networked (and who could resist that) you have
the possibility of something spreading to it that way.
New ideas are always great, and anybody that has been stuck with a dead PLC can appreciate reinstalling software locally.
Time will tell I suppose.
PC-based systems running a Windows operating system (OS) are not a good solution for real-time operations because a PC is not deterministic, i.e., you cannot guarantee a response time to interrupts and tasks. A PLC, on the other hand, has a guaranteed scan time, ensuring its I/O and interrupts are serviced on a regular basis. What that means in layman terms is you send out a signal to do a function and the PLC will go no further if within the allotted time frame it does not get a signal back to confirm function. A PC will send out a signal and even without confirmation will continue on or send multiple signals. Imagine a car doing 60 and you need to slow down. You take your foot off the gas but the car doesn't need to confirm it so it keeps going down the road at 60. If the car had to confirm the gas was off as in a fail safe situation the car would slow down. This and the fact that a tablet is not designed for machine vibrations, heated environments, and does not have the safety of being deterministic are the reason for my statement. also while minor the operating system used for programming is not a stable platform. Microsoft changes this often and that will affect the long term support for your pad.
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Cool thanks for your input Rich. I really appreciate you dumbing it down for us screen printers ;D I fully admit we are over my head on this technical stuff.
Is the vibration really a concern? All the machines I can think of currently with a tablet control are all servo index, and I can only think of one(the forthcoming MHM SA-EVO) that has pneumatic heads. I would think vibrations would minimal at best. I understand that is only one issue out of a few that were listed.
Good discussion though guys! I am super happy I brought it up because I love the technological advancement aspect of the tablet idea but I was just not completely understanding the benefits/drawbacks.
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I'd think that if a tablet can handle the abuses of daily travel it shouldn't have an issue with being attached to a machine.
I'm no Windows fan by any means, but apparently they developed a Robotics Development Kit back in 2007 to handle
the deterministic issue.
I think that our machines fall under a slightly different category than a huge milling machine or a laser for automotive manufacturing.
In terms of future support, I'm going to have to side with a PC. Even if the software changes, that's adaptable. Finding the ladder logic
program for a NLA Mitsubishi PLC? Let alone IO modules? NLA means what it means.
Alex, do you happen to know what PLC your S-Roque uses? My MHM's use Hitachi's, and while I have never had an issue with them, even when
the battery goes dead and needs to be replaced, parts availability is almost nil.
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I want to say it is APC or something like that.... I can't for the life of me remember right now. I can look when I get in tomorrow though!
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I think that it's less expensive to fix the control panel. Say $500 to get a new tablet, download the program, back up and running within say an hour. That's what I got (understood) from workhorse. I'm sure there are other advantages.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
When we broke our MHM panel a few years ago, it was 3 -4k, so a new tablet is certainly less than that.
Steve
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Alex, do you happen to know what PLC your S-Roque uses? My MHM's use Hitachi's, and while I have never had an issue with them, even when
the battery goes dead and needs to be replaced, parts availability is almost nil.
Hey man sorry about that, turns out "tomorrow" turned into a week! I was installing a new program on the press today and while the brand was staring me in the face it rang a bell!!!
The panel the S-Roques use is a Beijer. I am pretty sure after the first of the year all their presses use them now. Anyway there is a office in Utah. Here is a link to my exact panel-
http://www.beijerelectronics.com/web/web_en_be_com.nsf/alldocuments/6666452DE5742394C125786A0027EE37 (http://www.beijerelectronics.com/web/web_en_be_com.nsf/alldocuments/6666452DE5742394C125786A0027EE37)