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screen printing => Equipment => Topic started by: blue moon on December 20, 2013, 01:28:37 PM
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So we are looking at adding a NEW manual press into rotation. Vastex is thinking they can make one that would work with our MHM screens and pre-registration system. We currently use a Rototex and need to upgrade to something better. Using the MHM screens and FPU just seems like the right way to go.
Here's the million dollar question:
-are we better off sticking with a separate set of screens for the manual though? I've heard of many shops standardizing the screens so they can throw stuff on what ever press is available if something goes wrong. Does this apply to the screens for the manual press too? (I am not sure yet on what's it going to take to make this happen and how much is it going to cost, thus the questions).
-I like the side clamps, but are they really necessary when used with pre-reg?
-am I missing something?
thanx,
pierre
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We liked our Vastex and used it with Auto Frames (23x31's). The press did probably need bigger shocks to hold them "best" but does work.
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My Vastex could hold static frames (23x31) just fine, but it struggled with my square bar franken-frames and the cylinders wouldn't lift and hold Shurloc EZ frames (23x31), but those are some heavy suckers.
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I'm interested in both the replies, and what you end up getting for a manual to accompany the MHM.
I'm thinking it would make more sense to use the same screens on both. That way everything falls completely into the same system you are currently using. You don't have to worry about purchasing a bunch of new smaller frames. And it would probably make it easier to utilize the MHM FPU.
What (color/station) configuration are you looking to get Pierre?
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Pierre, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question or not. Our entire set up is designed so ANY job can go on ANY press, auto or manual. I won't discuss brands , but I think if you have the chance to get something that will work with your pre press system as it is now, look hard at that. Today I had to do 5 pieces that we were short on an order yesterday. We ran it on the auto yesterday, but I wasn't going to tie an auto up for five pieces. Same screens from yesterday were used. Slap 'em in the manual and go. And the side clamps...I dig 'em, with air locks of course.
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Vastex is a tank, but as you know, i like my Antec Legend.
The only issue with a Legend, that it might struggle with a heavier screens.
Vastex it might be a better option if you are to use 23x31 or maybe Sure-loc frames
Stop by if you want to see it again or play with it.
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Vastex is a tank, but as you know, i like my Antec Legend.
The only issue with a Legend, that it might struggle with a heavier screens.
Vastex it might be a better option if you are to use 23x31 or maybe Sure-loc frames
Stop by if you want to see it again or play with it.
we have a legend as well, and it most certainly struggles with roller frames that are not square bar'd
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I lean towards having everything standard to fit on all the equipment. I would be a little careful with the fact that someone is saying they "might" be able to build something but Vastex has their stuff together so hopefully they can fullfill that need.
One thing I like about doing manual screens for the manual and auto screens for the auto is when using an 18x20 on the manual makes a lot of things easier to manage. I'll explain. I only did a few jobs on the manual with our 18x20's we used to have and on the rear clamp Vastex with the square bar newmans, it was much easier to register manually. The smaller frames were easier to handle across the board, lifting and lowering, spinning the carousel, and the job stayed in registration much better than the auto frames on the vastex and better than our side clamp press and auto frames now. You obviously won't be able to gang images on the smaller screens very often or at all with a rear clamp press/square bar newmans but something can be said for not having to worry about ganging images and just slapping one piece of film on a screen and go.
If using 2 different frame types, you'll have some difficulty in pre-press that I can't really say if it would be worth it or not. If you have a job that initially was going to go on the manual but something happened and it needed to go on the auto, you could be in a bind. We would run smaller frames on our auto no problem but your situation is different. If your rear screen holder on the E type will move to accept a smaller frame then problem solved but if it doesn't, you're reshooting screens or going on the manual. Using the auto screens on the manual isn't as big of a deal as long as the print head will hold the screen.
I personally like the side clamps better but I will say the jobs we did on our rear clamp press with square bar frames worked great, especially the smaller frames. Smaller frames means smaller sweet spot, but it also means less emulsion, less time coating those screens and I'm sure a few other little things that you can think of. Manual frames are cheaper, and although you may not be able to use them on the auto you wouldn't have to buy that many to get your manual jobs out the door. If you use the auto frames you might not have to buy any though with your inventory as it is.
So I didn't answer anything and probably made things more confusing. My bad.
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Well our best manual is a Rototex 8 color; it holds our 23 x 31 no problem. I don't know what would be better from what I've seen; ours is a rock. Side clamps are critical to a manual as I see it. Hated the Hopkins we picked up once. I started on a Vastex way back, and have always thought they made good product, but we are really happy with the Rototex. What doesn't it do that you need it to do? By the way, we have separate frame sizes for our manual, but we started with a manual before adding our first auto, a Matex (Italian machine). I also don't see a manual that will use the MHM end cups, so I'm guessing you just need the press to be able to handle the weight...
Steve
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Our manual sits in the corner and does nothing. Lately I've been thinking about bringing it back in rotation
though as there have been a few jobs that it would have made sense to print manually.
I am all for standardizing frame size, I despised having multiple sizes. That said, nowadays I will know
long before the job hits press if it is going on the manual or not, so having a dedicated set of manual
frames should not be an issue. We use 25x36 roller frames and I doubt any manual can handle those competently,
so it's not really an option anyway.
You'd be on your own for making the MHM pins/FPU work, though it really shouldn't be that hard. Just an attachment you
put on the press in place of a pallet, install all screens and go. Thinking the pins would drop down into the holders as opposed
to locking in from front and back. Clear as mud? Good.
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I am bringing in a new ten color next week and will be replacing the current manual that is here so I can use the same reg system on both. For reasons like Bim mentions above.
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I use my manual to hold my drink and phone while I run the auto, that's about all its good for, and its new!
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Lol, sounds familiar, they make a great 6-table rotating crap holder.
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Ours is used mostly for a screen cleaning station right now.
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My $0.02:
If you are considering any real "production" on the manual, as in you might have a regular manual printer running the thing every day, then I would get at least a few sets of "manual" sized screens. They are easier to spin on a day to day basis.
If the manual machine will be playing a more supplemental role, like sampling and small runs, then by all means use the same frame size as the autos. No reason to mix things up if you don't need to.
As far as manual presses that handle auto sized frames, you HAVE to go with side clamps. Back clamps are the SUCK.
M&R Chameleon and Sidewinder handle big screens without breaking a sweat. The Chameleon has adjustable lift tension to handle lighter frames or big Newman M3's or whatever you throw at it. It's essentially a Sportsman without automation.
Vastex presses are awesome but I don't know if they have a side clamp option. That makes it a no-go in my book.
Workhorse Mach series with side clamps are nice. They are MUCH better than anything Hopkins has ever offered.
Hix makes a fine machine and side clamps are an option. They spin fast and are very well built.
Rototex machines are pure evil.
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We have the two manuals, both have their uses in our shop.
The Vastex is a rear clamp press, side clamps are an option that get secured in the rear clamps. It is set up for numbering but we will use it for small runs, single color all over or jumbo prints or odd non garment stuff up to 4" thick. The rear clamps will not hold roller frames unless it is off set to one side where it will clamp on one of the corners. With the two gas shocks it will take and hold a 36"x36" Newman roller but again offset to one side but I burn the screen to compensate for this. It has no problem with any of the square bar frames 18"x20"-25"x36".
The Sidewinder is side clamp and will handle any of our frames up to 25"x36". The 25"x36" Newmans are a little heavy for the press but will work. The press is used mainly for small runs, add on orders like Bim said and pockets. It is nice for the pockets mainly single color so I don't have to change the pallets on the auto. I also use it for testing new products like inks or garments, I can leave a project set up with out effecting production.
Our reg system will work on the auto and the Sidewinder, need to make a jig to fit the Vastex.
We have 18"x20" static frames for the manuals but as they go bad they are not being replaced. I will keep stretching our small square bar Newmans mainly because they are handy. Other wise we use our std 23"x31" or 25"x36" frames on the manuals. Everything is burned to fit the auto and manual.
IMO a tool is a tool, once it is paid for it can sit in the corner collecting dust, it doesn't cost anything to sit there. Even if it is used once a year to get a job out that otherwise may missed a dead line it is well worth it.
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For the back clamp guys with Newmans, I use the Newman clamp adapters on 23x26 frames in our Vastex and it works perfect. They're not exactly cheap if you need a lot of them, but a lot cheaper than buying new frames. However, if you were press shopping, it would make side clamps a much more attractive option.
http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/product/newmanclampadapters?gclid=CLSH1qy2wbsCFQPNOgodaQMAGg (http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/product/newmanclampadapters?gclid=CLSH1qy2wbsCFQPNOgodaQMAGg)
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I'm in bimridder's camp with this- standardize everything. Whatever up front costs you go through to achieve this will be surpassed 100 fold by the saving via scheduling flexibility.
I do agree with Evo that if it's down and dirty, full time production on a manual that smaller frames are nicer.
I think eb's idea of the MHM pins dropping into slots should work well enough. It won't be dead on but probably really close and will standardize positioning of the art in any case. Or, just buy and possibly modify (if the MHM pin bumps the top block) a tri-lock platen. Reg on the FPU, tri-lock platen on the manual on press. So long as the film was originally attached in the same way, you should be able to mix/match systems.
I loved the old Rototex I used to have, it was my first press and it held reg better than anything I've used since. If yours is holding up well enough I might stick with it or invest in a few mods to make it easier to use. Mine had no micros though and I heard that the ones with were not so hot.
M&R's sidewinder, chameleon and Anatol's Thunder are the presses built to handle auto frames. You saw my experience with the purchase of a new Thunder, which I would not wish upon anyone, but the press does hold up our M3 frames now and is useable in a "normal" fashion. Just be sure to get one with the updates I instructed them to make, cross your fingers, burn some sage, say a few prayers....or just buy an M&R. The Chameleon really is like a manual sportsman, Evo's right about that. Great sampling press but that is not going to work for all sizes of people as a production machine in an 8/8 configuration. Don't plan on ever upgrading one to a second deck, the cost of a new second deck is more than a used 8/14 typically and I've only seen the upper deck being sold alone, used, once in lord knows how many years of scrolling through classifieds. Go with a 4/8 or a 6/8 might be perfect if they make it, an 8/8 is too much for some to spin day in/out. I personally enjoyed the extra chameleon workout, I'd rather feel like I was doing an ab workout all day than come home with the kind of kinks I get from being a desk jockey, but I'm a weirdo, and your staff may not share that opinion. Alan has a nice video on the Sidewinder which is supposed to be a lot lighter to spin.
Whatever you do, get side clamps with air clamps. Just suck it up and spend the dough for it, worth every penny and kinda necessary to actually use pre-reg to the best of it's ability.
If the MHM is the only press you've used in production then brace yourself to completely hate every other platen system out there. They all go out of parallel and need regular attention and re-adjusting.
Call me anytime if I can help.
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Great sampling press but that is not going to work for all sizes of people as a production machine in an 8/8 configuration.
Yep. I had an 8/4 Chameleon and when it was fully loaded with 23x31 M3 frames it was a beast. I'm 6'4" and sometimes it was a challenge to spin on big runs.
But I have to say, NOTHING compares to it. With a tri-loc and the air clamps it was lightning fast to set up and if dialed in correctly it held registration perfectly. I never did any trapping or choking in my art after I got it. All butt registered and all dead on, every time.
I miss that thing.
The Sidewinder is *almost as good. It spins much lighter but the Chameleon is more adaptable.