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screen printing => Screen Making => Topic started by: alan802 on December 10, 2013, 11:37:41 AM
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I know some shops have them already but my local guy is going to stock these screens and see how it goes. I'm heading over there in a bit to pick up a few of each mesh count. I'll be documenting the tensions throughout their lifespan, well, at least until work hardened. I'll put the results up here for everyone to see and then be able to decide whether or not these statics are worth the money. I hope they are high quality and maintain a usable tension level, if they don't, we'll know pretty quickly. We are a roller frame shop that is about 75% S/Thin thread and 25% standard mesh counts in production but I want to test these frames for those who want a great screen without the price of rollers and bolt mesh. If they hold up like I think they should, this could allow a lot of shops to benefit from thin thread mesh. Stay tuned ladies.
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Keep me in the loop. My supplier Axiom America sells statics with the S-mesh and also offer re-meshing. I know they don't do any of it in-house (not sure if Murakami themselves do it stateside somewhere) because they're in the embroidery game and only offer a little screen printing stuff and not much/if any knowledge of the products.
I have stacks on stacks of statics I could use decent mesh in if the tension holds up on the s-threads (I'm skeptical).
They'd have to over-tension them by at least 5 newtons to get them to settle in the mid 20's for 150/48 in my opinion
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We have been stretching S-mesh on statics for a while now, they do work nice. So I had a thought about getting more tension out of them. Since the rollers seem to stretch easier, I was thinking of getting a oversized roller(one a 23x31 static could fit INSIDE of) stretching the mesh nice and tight and then putting a piece of steal on the screen like described in the M&R book from back in the day to help relax the mesh. Then after that is done, re tighten the roller to the max and press a static up from under the roller, adhere the mesh to the static and cut the excess away....
Make sense? Stupid? Am I missing the point all together? The voices in my head don't usually critique my ideas :o What do you guys think?
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If you were me, you'd run, reclaim, and retension it a few times before you glue it on a static... (hint hint ;))
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That used to be a problem for Newman when they first came out. If you wanted one single large frame they pretty much knew you were using it as a stretching device for statics and they charged accordingly. Not really an issue these days. We have a stretching table and some ginormous Newmans and a few thousand static frames and use the weight/tension method described above. Sold all the auto Newman frames.
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We have been stretching S-mesh on statics for a while now, they do work nice. So I had a thought about getting more tension out of them. Since the rollers seem to stretch easier, I was thinking of getting a oversized roller(one a 23x31 static could fit INSIDE of) stretching the mesh nice and tight and then putting a piece of steal on the screen like described in the M&R book from back in the day to help relax the mesh. Then after that is done, re tighten the roller to the max and press a static up from under the roller, adhere the mesh to the static and cut the excess away....
Make sense? Stupid? Am I missing the point all together? The voices in my head don't usually critique my ideas :o What do you guys think?
I have not tried it with s-mesh yet. But I run the roller frames through several print cycles with retention, then use the mesh on smaller static frames. It is quite time consuming but we are a manual shop and the employee prefer lighter screens.
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We have been stretching S-mesh on statics for a while now, they do work nice. So I had a thought about getting more tension out of them. Since the rollers seem to stretch easier, I was thinking of getting a oversized roller(one a 23x31 static could fit INSIDE of) stretching the mesh nice and tight and then putting a piece of steal on the screen like described in the M&R book from back in the day to help relax the mesh. Then after that is done, re tighten the roller to the max and press a static up from under the roller, adhere the mesh to the static and cut the excess away....
Make sense? Stupid? Am I missing the point all together? The voices in my head don't usually critique my ideas :o What do you guys think?
The weight is in the middle is a good practice, its a way to work harden the mesh before glueing. I was always taught to pulse the mesh up and add weights for a period of time, then remove the weights tension up to your desired tension add a couple more and glue. My local guy does it this way and my statics are mid 20s work hardened.
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I've purchased S-mesh statics in the past but, no matter how adamant I was, supplier wouldn't stretch them properly. I offered to pay extra, whatever it takes to get them to stage tension it according to Murakami's recommendations, then over tension slightly before gluing but no dice. So the one we have left for printing flags and OS stuff is pretty weak sauce on the tension and I know it could be better. Interested to hear how it goes Al even though we're pretty dug in on our M3s/pin lock setup.
TCT, as Tony confirmed, yes this is supposed to be one of the better methods. Make sure the steel plate is super smooth. If you have the time, an overnight sit at full tension with a bump up in the morn will really stabilize this mesh. Colin told me of some using 5k psi or higher press washers to "instantly" work harden screens, sounds like there is an art to that though. I really think just giving it enough time during stage tensioning and truly doing it right- releasing all tension after each stage -wins most of the battle. I know that might not be super production friendly but it's really worth it.
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With the advent of retens, the craft of stretching statics has become rather stale. There are forgotten techniques that allowed the printer to produce a quality screen; using the raw materials that he/she preferred. Since most static users rely on outside services to stretch/restretch the printer is now at their mercy. You get what you get. Can't share all the nuances but we have some proprietary methods.
Also if you're in the Southeast/ATL my friend Brannon has got a pretty mean re-stretching op.
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Makes sense. I'm actually in Montana so just the shipping back and forth to a supplier alone for restretch is a big part of why we went with rollers. With more space I would put in a stretch/glue setup but would want to then become a supplier in the area to justify taking up that mush floor space/investment for screen stretching.
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I stretch and glue at night or over the weekend. No extra room here.
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PLacing weights on the mesh for a period of time simulates what the squeegee does to the mesh. Its probably the closest you can get to work hardening a screen with out actually printing with it. Screens from the mass suppliers can have tension drops of 10 and higher, that right there is a tell tale sign they are simply rolling out the mesh and glueing immediately. My guys screens drop a few newtons and that is it. In fact I know I can get higher tensions out of him but he refuses to go higher than he is comfortable with. Either way i have awesome statics that cvan print just as well as any other screen types, the room for improvement now is for me to get some smart mesh or S mesh and have him stretch some up. That is of course if Alan sees the benefit.
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Couple of other techniques can improve the process. Think about it. What else besides off contact and pressure causes loss of tension?
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Couple of other techniques can improve the process. Think about it. What else besides off contact and pressure causes loss of tension?
Heat water chemicals? Solar equinox?
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Just got back with some 150, 180 and 135. The 135's are at 21 and 22 newtons and every other mesh count I tested came in at 22 newtons. He has 135, 150, 180, 225 and 300 in stock and I put the meter on multiple screens of all the mesh counts and they were all consistent. The quality of the frame, glue, flatness, etc are all as good as the Xenon screens that he also carries. All of the Xenon screens I've ever seen at his shop were top notch quality wise but I'm not sure what others around the country are getting but these Murakami screens are as good as it gets. There's not any streaks of glue on the frames, no metal poking out from anywhere, the frames are flat, flat, and flat. I hoped they'd be higher in the initial tension levels but if they stay around 20-22 after a few uses then we've got something good here. If they fall to 15, then consider them only marginally better than standard thread mesh in that you'll still have a larger percentage of open area with like mesh counts.
I'll have these taped and coated by the end of the day and by tomorrow afternoon we should have some numbers for after printing.
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Definitely excited to try these out. Let me know when you've had a chance to test them out Alan, and I'll pick some up if they are up to par. Do you know how many Kevin ordered or how quickly he can get more?
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Couple of other techniques can improve the process. Think about it. What else besides off contact and pressure causes loss of tension?
Imbalanced streched mesh (SS curve- "the stretcher" does not consider/compensate for the uneven warp/weft thread count)..
Isolated tensions (tensions when measured diagonally from a screens corner to center has a considerable jump in tension from corner to about a 3rd before center then reduces at the center)..
Mesh who's elongation has to go into the teens% to get past lets say 24n- This is where staging really plays a big role in mesh streching..
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If you guys are looking for re-stretches with high tensions. We offer that option at no extra charge. All it takes is just some extra time and skill. Check out the link below to see what we can offer on re-stretches.
http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frames.php (http://www.spotcolorsupply.com/Restretch_Frames.php)
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The S-mesh statics we stretch settle down to roughly 15 newtons on average. When we initially stretch them we only get them to about 22ish but our stretcher is less than the best one out there and it tears the mesh pretty easily. It is a older RhinoTech stretcher that used to stretch screens at a sign company, thing is frickin' huge. That is why I had mentioned stretching on a larger roller, those seem to be easier on the mesh.
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So the first screen has made it's way through the production loop and is reclaimed and ready for coating. The 150 is right around 21 newtons down from 22 when I got it. It's just a touch under 21 but well over 20. The 135 was coated but not used in production then reclaimed and it dropped from 21 to 20.5ish. That's a fairly low percentage of tension drop with a run through production for the first time. It helps that the screen was printed with a soft blade and 20 psi with lower off contact and those who put more pressure on their mesh will likely see a much higher drop in tension.
So in general I'm a little disappointed in the initial tension only being around 22 and was hoping they'd come in around 25-27 newtons and end up at 22. If they can stay above 18 once they work harden then I'll consider them well done. If they drop to 15 then I'm not sure.
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Any updates on these Alan? I am trying to evaluate which way to go with my screens right now. For me rollers are out of the question, too much investment and probably not enough discipline to use and care for them properly honestly. So are the $30+ Murakami 23x31 statics worth it? Or should I stick with our $16.00 23x31 statics? Or should we go with the Shurloc EZ frame? I just did inventory of our usable statics and I cant believe we are down to so little right now:
110-4
140-2
160-3
180-5
230-7
305-4
Definitely not enough.
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Wow, how to you manage with so few screens?! crap I am running a 6 color 2 station ghetto manual and doing one to three setups a day and I have almost 50 screens. Between printing flatstock and transfers, having enough to cover different variables (110 2/2 coated vs 280 1/1 for example), and not wanting to reclaim every other day, running fewer just wasn't cutting it. I'm actually thinking of buying about 20 more as soon as I get my diptank setup and finish my expansion, which should include a 120 sqft dedicated screen room (so psyched about this!).
Still haven't had a chance to try out the S mesh statics I got. I believe I bought 2 135s and 2 225s. I'm hoping they will help with long discharge runs and drying in issues on fine detail work.
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The 180/48's came back through their first run yesterday and I reclaimed them earlier today. They started at 23 and the tension meter says...22.5. That's a great number to see. Again, the mesh doesn't get worked very hard but not losing a newton in tension after it's virgin run is awesome in my opinion. I was expecting to see a drop of 2-3 newtons and then hope for the best but so far things are looking pretty good. Just the initial tension has been the only drawback I see and hopefully the rest of the screens will show similar minimum tension loss.
So to recap I've gotten 4 of the 5 back from their first print run and nothing has lost more than a newton or so in tension. I'll endorse these screens heavily if they all remain over 20 newtons.
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I manage by doing lots of 1-2 color jobs and ganging images all the time for the most part. Now for Murakami, there are screens stretched by them and then screens stretched by dealers using their mesh, I wonder which is better.
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Alan: Did you use them for discharge or plastisol? Any details on mesh count and coating technique?
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Alan: Did you use them for discharge or plastisol? Any details on mesh count and coating technique?
Plastisol only and we coat everything with the glisten method and the monster max scoop coater. I think every screen except the 135/48 has been used in production. The 135 was coated and exposed but we reclaimed it before we used it.
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This is a slight tangent, and may be better left to a different thread, but can you briefly clarify the glisten method? I have attempted it based on what I've read and I'm honestly just not sure if I am actually doing it. How much "glisten" should there be on the squeegee side of the screen? Should it look like a layer of emulsion was actually put on that side, or are you just wanting any amount of shine above what the mesh would look like uncoated? For discharge I typically coat 1/1 or 2/1 with the sharp side and at a 45 degree angle with medium to heavy pressure, pretty slow stroke. The emulsion is definitely in the mesh, but there isn't exactly a glisten compared to when I coat with the round side and 2 or 3 coats. The thinner stencil with the 1/1 works much better for discharge though in my experience as you can really push the ink into the mesh. I accidentally used a 2/2 110 for white discharge the other day (looooong day, rush job, and I just wasnt paying attention when burning it) and the final result was crap compared to when i use 160 1/1.
Any clarification would be great!
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The best way I can describe it is take a mid range mesh count, 200 ish and do one coat on the shirt side then take a look at the squeegee side. It will likely still be "dry" but still look like some emulsion has made it to that side. Then do another coat on the shirt side and look again. It's hard to describe but you'll know it when you see it. Just like porn, hard to define but you know it when you see it. It will look a lot like it does on the shirt side once emulsion has fully encapsulated the threads, but slightly different since your scoop coater's edge is in contact with the mesh and the squeegee side will just show emulsion wrapping around the threads. There will likely be cases where half of the screen looks like it's glistening and other parts do not, coat it again on the shirt side. If you use consistent pressure and speed throughout the entire coat stroke, the entire screen will be the same and you won't have parts that glisten and parts that don't. Coating a 110 you might see a complete glisten with your first coating, so don't use the lower meshes to get a good look at a glisten. Maybe a 280 or 305 would be good to test since it will likely take 3 coating strokes to see a full glisten on the squeegee side. After you've reached that glisten stage all you need to do is one coat on the squeegee side and you're done.
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Do you alternate the direction your coating on the single side (rotate the screen 180 degrees) or just keep it the same direction and coat again?
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Do you alternate the direction your coating on the single side (rotate the screen 180 degrees) or just keep it the same direction and coat again?
I was taught to do this and always thought it was a must. But I realized finally auto coaters and oat people never flip their screens so it must be unnecessary. But I also realize the screens I used to coat in my old job were super high mesh counts for circuitry printing and such so maybe the flip method had a purpose.
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Do you alternate the direction your coating on the single side (rotate the screen 180 degrees) or just keep it the same direction and coat again?
We used to rotate them but got away from doing it the last few years and there have been no issues. I know the old instructions from emulsion companies recommended you rotate but I can't remember exactly why or what the purpose was. The mesh still gets encapsulated the same and the stencil is no different from our experience.
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Perhaps the rotating and coating the opposite direction is to help even out possible inconsistencies at the beginning and end of the stroke.
This would also explain why an automatic coater (or Alan, lol) might not benefit from this technique.
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Perhaps the rotating and coating the opposite direction is to help even out possible inconsistencies at the beginning and end of the stroke.
This would also explain why an automatic coater (or Alan, lol) might not benefit from this technique.
True story, my printer used to coat screens before I let him on the auto, and I'd measure the stencils and I couldn't believe the consistency from screen to screen and from different areas on the mesh. He would be within a few microns on each like mesh count. I can keep it in single digits but I swear I'd get identical readings many times from one screen to another and the +- tolerance on the thickness gauge is fairly generous. I'm sure the auto coater could boast that type of consistency but I doubt it could coat 20 screens in 20 minutes like Carlos could.
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From what I recall the stated advantage was to be able to force the emulsion into the knuckles of the mesh from both sides. With such high mesh counts and such small openings and really really thin deposits it probably is advantageous to get as much grip as possible. For print our type of screens meh, don,t see the point and never seen a problem not doing it.
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I have been doing a 2/1 with the sharp side and a really slow coat. Have been getting really good stencils. Close to an acceptable white on dark thru a 160, probably would have been good on a 110.
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I have been doing a 2/1 with the sharp side and a really slow coat. Have been getting really good stencils. Close to an acceptable white on dark thru a 160, probably would have been good on a 110.
Have you compared those results to a screen coated 2/1 with the round side? At least with plastisol, EOM is your friend.
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Im gonna do that when I get a new coater. I was actually started to use the round side but it has a pretty good nick in it. Im debating whether to go with the Monster Max scoop or the AWT
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I ordered the Monster Max this morning. Very excited!
For one color plastisol, especially white, I coat 2/2 with round on either 110 or 160 (though I am going to be trying to perfect the glisten method this week) unless I am underbasing. My stencils are thick enough that you can easily see and feel the edge of the stencil on the shirt side. It lays down a great deposit of ink with nearly 100% opacity, but I still usually p/f/p for the one color lights on dark to get that extra pop and smoothness. If I underbase, I usually use discharge clear, or lay down one layer using the 2/2 160 then my other colors use 2/1 or 1/1 with 200 to 280 mesh. I'm excited about revamping the process using glisten method and a new coater though. The holidays are going to be all about testing...
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I don't want to disappoint about the monster max, but it's probably not going to do much for you. It's easier to hold and handle, it's got some fancy stuff about it, but it doesn't do anything but give a very slightly better stencil consistency and I may be dreaming on that.
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I don't want to disappoint about the monster max, but it's probably not going to do much for you. It's easier to hold and handle, it's got some fancy stuff about it, but it doesn't do anything but give a very slightly better stencil consistency and I may be dreaming on that.
Is that the one with the bottle opener, but the need to tweak the end caps?
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I know it's not a magic bullet, but I needed a new coater anyway, and the fact that it can hold more and has the thinner end caps is more than enough reason to buy it. The ability to tweak the end caps and the bucket opener is just a bonus.
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The 180's have made it back through round 3 of production and I'm happy to announce they are holding steady at 22 newtons. This is good news.
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I measured the 135/48 today after 5 trips through production and it's holding at 20 newtons. I think all of them are close if not work hardened at this point and they have not dropped in tension nearly as bad as most of the other statics that I've tried. I'm going to buy a few more but at this point I can say that as far as a static aluminum screen goes, these are the best I've used. They say the S thread doesn't elongate like other mesh and most all the major manufacturers all say their mesh maintains tension but the Murakami smartmesh is by far the best that I've tested. I've stretched all the major mesh manufacturers and none of them come close to to the smartmesh in regards to elongation.
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The smart mesh also has the added advantage of having a balanced SS curve so choosing whether the mesh is oriented warp vs weft is of no concern- the openings will still be balanced and square.. Now what's also smart is the coating of the threads, to bring it's surface energy lower than the inks surface tension so that the inks don't cling to the threads openings..
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I'm not pleased with mine. I'm bad to read instructions and I ripped three newly stretched s-mesh screens. If the designer would put a plastic end cap on the think I think he would have a winner.
I don't want to disappoint about the monster max, but it's probably not going to do much for you. It's easier to hold and handle, it's got some fancy stuff about it, but it doesn't do anything but give a very slightly better stencil consistency and I may be dreaming on that.
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...just got a MonsterMax here too. The very ends are razor-sharp, which is why they tell you to make sure the endcaps are higher than the coating edge. I saw that nightmare coming, so I filed off the very tip of the end and sanded it smooth. Works great now. I like how deep it is, seems to hold a quart or more at a time. bothe edges are identical too, so if you fatally nick one side, you can flip it around and get the same results.
http://www.basicsilkscreensupplies.com/products.html (http://www.basicsilkscreensupplies.com/products.html)
...these folks make a few crafty items, actually. I tried the winged flood bar but didn't care for it, the wings can potentially tilt downward for "fast and easy on-press mesh removal" ;D. Never happened, but its just seemed bound to at some point. We removed 'em and use as a standard flood bar.
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I put my thin thread mesh through several cycles on Newman frames then glue them on rigid frames. (59,90,and 305)
I am wondering how many cycles does it take for a mesh to work harden?
Also I read somewhere online about reversing the print stroke. If we do that, we will reduce the work harden process. Is this true?
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S mesh is a low elongation mesh- It does not have to use a lot of "elastic stretching" to get to the required tension.. Loss of tension will be more likely due to improper installation causing it not to be squared while introducing isolated tension in some areas. Also going pass recommended tension levels would cause necking in some of the threads. Also bringing low elongation mesh up to tension rapidly will cause a shock?? to the threads.. But once stretched correctly they're good to go.
There's nothing wrong with static frames paired with LE mesh..
Stretching mesh correctly is more than just tension so I wonder how involved does a static screen seller get when it comes to getting it right? (Right out the door..) A lot of people look down on statics- that they loose tension too quickly or they arrive with low tension.. It's not the statics to blame but the time and procedure it takes to build a stable screen-along with how stretchy the mesh is.. Time is money so the statics get the blame..
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I run across these threads and would like to help anyone who would like to try S mesh.
Here are some notes on S mesh:
1. Murakami has a stretch service on the West Coast and in North Carolina. The stretcher we use is not available to the public. Murakami manufacurers it's own stretcher to stretch for the electronic and graphics industry. We use this stretcher here to obtain excellent static stretch screens. The difference? Threads that are oriented square to the frame. Bar stretchers and Newmans are not as accurate on mesh capture. Also a well stretched static stretch and glue has a larger sweet spot, those softened corners on a Newman does reduce the sweet spot where tension, thread orientation are smaller than a static of the same size.
2. Tensions: We stretch to 22-24 newtons on S mesh. This is due more to textile shops not handling screens with care than the ability of the stretcher or mesh to reach a higher tension. Highly recommend rolling racks and carts to transport screens. Grabbing them two at a time and dropping them to the floor by the press is tough on highly tensioned S mesh. The following mesh guide shows the tension range. Stretching to maximum tension creates issues for textile shops where they are leaning against the wall or piled into a sink and handled poorly.
http://www.murakamiscreen.com/documents/MeshGuidefromCatalogweb.pdf (http://www.murakamiscreen.com/documents/MeshGuidefromCatalogweb.pdf)
3. Frames - We overbuild our static frames. They are capable of 40 newton tensions. For those that like high tension go with T or HD mesh. Trying to get high tension with S mesh is not advised. However S mesh does not need high tensions to print well. Newmans are a great tool, retensioning of mesh does help, but there is a cost advantage to statics.
4. Not all mesh is the same: Murakami/Nittoku uses a proprietary low elongation thread that retains tension. In our lab I have 150S screens from the video I posted on this mesh that were stretched to 24 newtons and still read 22 newtons and these screens are now 2 years old. If some are seeing a drop from 22 to 15 on Murakami mesh I'd like to know about it. We may want to go to 26-28n, but again, handling is key. Most textile shops don't use rolling rack, single screen reclaim processes. I like to use the analogy of washing dishes as a kid, would your Mom let you throw the dishes into the sink? Yet I see brutal treatment of S mesh screens in reclaiming in a lot of textile shops.
5. I could go on, but if you want to know more about Murakami S Mesh, here are some articles we have on the subject. If you want a quote on static frames either restretched or new on our frames just give us a call. You can specify the tension you want in the tension range, we chose one that preserves the mesh when screens are banged around.
http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/The-Power-of-S-Mesh-1.pdf (http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/The-Power-of-S-Mesh-1.pdf)
http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Stretching-S-and-LX-Meshes.pdf (http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Stretching-S-and-LX-Meshes.pdf)
http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/May-2010-Thin-Thread-Newsletter1.pdf (http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/May-2010-Thin-Thread-Newsletter1.pdf)
Alan Buffington
800-562-3534 ext118
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You can peddle it as the latest and greatest device to ever hit the market..
You can stretch it with NASA rated equipment made from titanium and powered by the wind, sun or gravitational pull
but it's still.. a.. static.. frame that loses tension. every. time. you. print. it.. ???
(http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/quot+You+can+golden+plate+a+turd+but+it+s+still+a+_cbb8334b4aefa581c991aad0ce7336dd.jpg)
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I'm still documenting our tension levels on the 5 S thread statics I bought at the beginning of this thread and they have all settled in at 19 to 20 newtons and they seem to be work-hardened and haven't lost any additional tension in the last few times I've measured. These statics with S thread are far superior to most other statics I've gotten over the years (I won't mention the suppliers but I've had at least 6 different statics) in retaining higher tensions and also printability. The only other statics I've bought that have retained any type of working tension (above 18 newtons) were the ones I got from Xenon. The Xenon 110's and 125's I got are still holding low 20's in tension which is far better than I expected. But with the standard mesh counts along with low 20's tension they don't compare to the Murakami S thread screens and certainly not a roller frame outfitted with S thread. The Murakami frames "seem" better built than ALL the others I've used and they are thicker and slightly heavier.
I'll never make a move to static frames versus retensionables but for those shops who want something better and can't/won't go with retens can make significant improvements to their entire operation with S thread statics. I believe guys when they say they can put out high quality prints through a 16 newton set of screens because I've done it too, but when it comes to setting them up and knocking the job out along with high quality nothing will ever beat a retensionable w/thin thread when it comes to printing plastisol.
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Alan and Alan,
Stretching some 150 LX now and am wondering if any "Registration" issues arise
with it (white UB) at only say 20N and other meshes at 30-35N within same design?
What are your Alan and Alan (or others that have had tension gaps like this) thoughts on this?
Thx!
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As long as all screens have mesh that is balanced, the only thing that should need addressing for different tensions is off contact.. But also consider that though the thread diameter stays the same, the mesh opening enlarge as the mesh elongate and tension goes up.
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I'm still documenting our tension levels on the 5 S thread statics I bought at the beginning of this thread and they have all settled in at 19 to 20 newtons and they seem to be work-hardened and haven't lost any additional tension in the last few times I've measured. These statics with S thread are far superior to most other statics I've gotten over the years (I won't mention the suppliers but I've had at least 6 different statics) in retaining higher tensions and also printability. The only other statics I've bought that have retained any type of working tension (above 18 newtons) were the ones I got from Xenon. The Xenon 110's and 125's I got are still holding low 20's in tension which is far better than I expected. But with the standard mesh counts along with low 20's tension they don't compare to the Murakami S thread screens and certainly not a roller frame outfitted with S thread. The Murakami frames "seem" better built than ALL the others I've used and they are thicker and slightly heavier.
I'll never make a move to static frames versus retensionables but for those shops who want something better and can't/won't go with retens can make significant improvements to their entire operation with S thread statics. I believe guys when they say they can put out high quality prints through a 16 newton set of screens because I've done it too, but when it comes to setting them up and knocking the job out along with high quality nothing will ever beat a retensionable w/thin thread when it comes to printing plastisol.
Hate plastisol, love statics
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Alan and Alan,
Stretching some 150 LX now and am wondering if any "Registration" issues arise
with it (white UB) at only say 20N and other meshes at 30-35N within same design?
What are your Alan and Alan (or others that have had tension gaps like this) thoughts on this?
Thx!
I know some really good printers are very adamant about having a multi-colored job having close to the same tension levels for all the colors but back when I was in my "super high tension phase" we had screens at 60 newtons and as low as 20 newtons and often jobs with 4 colors having tension levels from 20 to 60 and never had any regi issues that were noticeable. That was back when I was on the press too and I was looking for that since I had read that they needed to be all around the same tension level. I don't know if the fact that our press was very tightly calibrated at that time or if some other parameter played a role but we didn't have any issues with it. Most of our screens are 22-28 newtons right now and there is no regi issues to speak of but I wouldn't expect there to be.
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Static frames with S mesh from Murakami do hit a work hardened tension level. Not all thread and mesh are the same. Chinese Mesh on a static can't be compared to a Static Frame with Murakami Mesh. This isnt and either or situation. Both the Newman, and a static with our mesh will have great print qualities. I just find set up easier with statics on an M&R, they stay flat, no labor retension needed, larger sweet spot on the same size frame. Tension is mesh specific. Registration loss is a product of a screen losing tension during the print. As mentioned I have a set here that is a sim process design that I made 2 years ago that I still use for demos. Dot on Dot register still, no base poking out, crisp details.
Alan
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Mr Sheridan, since you are in my area, I can come down and show you. Seeing is believing. Somewhat amazed that a pile of golden poo is how you view statics. Lets do a demo with my screens and then decide. Not all statics are the same and I would agree that a lot of statics being sold nowadays under perform compared to a Newman. If you have the time to retension great, most companies I visit throughout the world don't retension much any longer.
Alan
Murakami Screen USA
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While most here do I would agree with Alan B that most companies never work harden rollers. I've been in a whole lot of shops and it is rare.
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Hate plastisol, love statics
Can I get a shirt that says this?
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Something that is overlooked when working with Rollers vs. Square Tube Frames is corner size. When you look at a static frame, the dual directional support of the mesh goes all the way from corner to corner. There is no single support thread line. With our EZ Frame, the single thread support line is about a half an inch inward from the ID of the frame. When you look at a roller frame, say a 23x31 M3 for example, you have a 15x23 area that is supported by dual threads. Any are outside of that is only pulled in "one direction" by the tube that is applying force to it. These "single thread" areas won't harden, they will just keep losing tension slowly and require retentioning often.
Work hardening a roller frame would be nearly impossible. Even with the best mesh on the planet (and yes Alan, I like your product the best) and even with our precut fabric panels, there is no way to stabilize the mesh when only the warp or weft direction is under pressure. You might only lose a Newton or two a week or month, but it won't stabilize. Eventually, you will need to loosen and retighten that mesh. At least that's what all of our testing has shown.
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Hate plastisol, love statics
Can I get a shirt that says this?
I would like to think you could make one yourself :)
I'm on the fence when it comes to WB/DC versus plastisol. On one hand there are things that make DC so much easier than plastisol, but then you look at something I saw in an earlier post from Jon where he had like 8 steps to do before he starts printing and with plastisol you just put it in the screen and go. But then you need to have your settings more dialed in with plastisol and tension and thread thickness, mesh openings, etc plays a huge role. DC isn't as picky with the print settings and 15 newtons, off contact, on contact, no matter, pressure...lot's, squeegee blade...just throw one in there it will probably work just fine, you get the point. I think for us, we've got things dialed in for plastisol and we don't normally have the issues that come with plastisol printing which makes it more appealing but with a little work we could be that dialed in with DC. I just don't like having so many things out of our control with DC and whether or not the shirts will discharge well and then with all the customers wanting 50/50's and polyester performance material it forces us to use plastisol for the majority of our jobs. I guess the point I'm getting at is there are fewer jobs that set up for a good DC print with our customer base. During the workshops I always set a job up with red ink on dark shirts with a plastisol white underbase with red on top then print the same job, setup and all directly after to show how DC can be beneficial. I encourage the attendees to learn WB and DC because of the trends and popularity and to not discount it because it could make up a majority of the jobs they sell in the very near future. I've gone so far as to recommend they do more WB/DC work than plastisol if possible just starting out then if their customers have to have plastisol then go that route but as a second option.
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Mr Sheridan, since you are in my area, I can come down and show you. Seeing is believing. Somewhat amazed that a pile of golden poo is how you view statics. Lets do a demo with my screens and then decide. Not all statics are the same and I would agree that a lot of statics being sold nowadays under perform compared to a Newman. If you have the time to retension great, most companies I visit throughout the world don't retension much any longer.
Alan, you are more than welcome to stop by and check the place out, bring a bolt of mesh with ya as we need some more 230. I've been a roller user since 1991 and i'm not about to change my mind about static frames. In my eyes, they are piles of poo no matter if gold plated or not.
The stretch and glue frame has become a commodity item, something that suppliers peddle off to printers the same as spray tac. It's become something you just order along with your ink. I know for a fact some major suppliers who stopped offering roller frames because they make more money offering stretch-and-glue services to their customers.. facepalm!
Now.. if we want to talk about the EZ frame from shurloc.. that is about the only 'static' frame that isn't a static and about as close to a newman as you can get when you take them to step 2 with the offset rails they offer.
We have over 500 custom sized (28x38) EZ frames and all of them use s-threads (that is what i'm told so don't hold me to that)
As far as shops failing to reten their rollers.. yeah that's a huge problem for the shop that decides not to do so. At that point, all they have are glorified statics.
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Hate plastisol, love statics
Can I get a shirt that says this?
I would like to think you could make one yourself :)
Eh, I'm a Newman guy, wouldn't feel right.
DC isn't the end all be all obviously, just yet another tool in the box.
We did just discharge some 50/50 dark heather Gildans, beautifully.
Have you tried an HSA white yet Alan? Seems like your kind of stuff.
Apparently colors blow but the white is the bee's knees. I could see getting
a one hit white with it more than I could with plastisol.
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Shurloc's getting technical.. Single thread and dual thread support :-[ Mesh inability to work harden because mesh is only supported in warp and weft directions only :-[
That's way over my head..
I thought you guys only provided innovative products?
Sent using Tapatalk
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My statics (rigid one piece high tension frames) can beat up your fancy girly high maintenance frames any day of the week.
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I am a Newman guy also and only use Newman mesh which IMO makes using the retensionalbles more valuable. I have used other HD mesh but the treads are thicker then the Newman mesh.
I recently tried 1 S mesh. I really need some practice with this stuff. The mesh was skewing from the pressure. I tried different pressures, squeegee blades used and new 70, 60, 65 and 70-90-70. I may go ahead and buy another as the first one I ripped while reclaiming.
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I don't use retensionables, mostly due to space and cost limitations, and I print on a manual.
I have about 25 of the S-mesh statics and they print like absolute butter. I have pretty much stopped using anything under a 150S, and those are only for one hit white plastisol prints where i'm doing crazy thick stencils. Pretty much everything else I am printing right now uses 225S and 300S. Trying to lay down a clean underbase white on a standard 230 vs. 225S is night and day when it comes to ease of printing and how clean the final print is (again, on a manual). I understand people with autos who use standard mesh on rentensionable frames at higher mesh counts all day long without issue, but if you havent tried to print 300 shirts manually recently and compared how the S mesh prints vs standard mesh, you really can't understand how much easier they make the process.
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Trying to lay down a clean underbase white on a standard 230 vs. 225S is night and day when it comes to ease of printing and how clean the final print is (again, on a manual).
The specs for 230 or 225 specs from Saati and Nittoku has puzzled me for a while.
In metric dimension they both have the same number of threads per centimetre, but in imperial units they are different.
Saati: 90thread/centimetre (230 thread/inch)
Nittoku: 90thread/centimetre(225 thred/inch)
Both have the same thread diametre: 40 micron.
1 inch =2.56 cm
2.56*90 = 228.6 Threads
Do they actually contain the same number of threads per inch? I think they do.
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Trying to lay down a clean underbase white on a standard 230 vs. 225S is night and day when it comes to ease of printing and how clean the final print is (again, on a manual).
The specs for 230 or 225 specs from Saati and Nittoku has puzzled me for a while.
In metric dimension they both have the same number of threads per centimetre, but in imperial units they are different.
Saati: 90thread/centimetre (230 thread/inch)
Nittoku: 90thread/centimetre(225 thred/inch)
Both have the same thread diametre: 40 micron.
Well if you would be precise 225 per inch would equal 88.58 per centimeter which of course is not possible. So they probably do some rounding up.
1 inch =2.56 cm
2.56*90 = 228.6 Threads
Do they actually contain the same number of threads per inch? I think they do.
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Some notes on recent comments. 225 vs 230, or just about any higher mesh count comparison. Thread count varies slightly. While we would like to believe that there are 225/230 threads per inch it can vary by a few threads within an inch, especially in higher mesh counts. The more important feature of mesh is how square the mesh opening stays under tension. Square, precise openings under tension can be affected by the quality of the mesh. The more square it is the easier it is to control moire.
I have no issue with Newmans. However mesh technology has changed a lot since they were developed to combat elongating mesh. Our mesh retains tensions well. Just like a car lot there are porches and Yugos and not all statics are the same. High tension HD meshes have good print quality and the retensioning ability is a nice quality control feature for predictable printing, but statics with our mesh reach a good working tension, no maintenance needed, and print quality is excellent. Once I have a screen that holds dot on dot register from the beginning to print 10,000 with good opacity and sharp details I know it's the mesh that was the reason, whether you like Newman's or Statics, quality mesh works better. Expose the Quality.
Original Art and Final Print -- Printed by Motion Textile in Sacramento Ca.
(http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1stGuitarPicHTMLimage.jpg) (http://murakamiscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Printed-Shirt.jpg)
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You can peddle it as the latest and greatest device to ever hit the market..
You can stretch it with NASA rated equipment made from titanium and powered by the wind, sun or gravitational pull
but it's still.. a.. static.. frame that loses tension. every. time. you. print. it.. ???
There is not truth to that. Good statics will work harden if set up correctly. If what you say is true then screens we have that are several years old would have zero newtons by this point, yet they are in the high teens, low twenties.
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Of course statics work harden. They just harden at a lower tension which is fine by me for what we do. Does not affect final outcome one iota.
I'm not a tension snob ;)
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OK these Murakami stock screens are interesting. Does anyone have a guestimate of a typical 160 Murakami S Mesh cost from them? I am afraid of jaw dropping pricing.
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Yeah I can never find pricing. I wondered what would be cheaper, me shipping them my 20 screens to have stretched or just buying a complete murakami frame.
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Yeah I can never find pricing. I wondered what would be cheaper, me shipping them my 20 screens to have stretched or just buying a complete murakami frame.
I am wondering if they do offer re-stretches, or have a list of "approved" S-Mesh re-stretchers.
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This screen is easily over 6 months old. It has not lost any tension after the first week.
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Thanks Jon for the photo and reply.
Alan
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I think Kevin at River City is selling the 150/48 at around $26-27 but don't quote me on that. I just remember being pleasantly surprised.
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Tension on emulsioned screens?
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Tension on emulsioned screens?
Emulsion doesn't change the reading much, if any.
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28x38 EZ Frame 225/48 S Mesh
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28x38 EZ Frame 225/48 S Mesh
Hey john i'm going to be in Oceanside this weekend.
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Hey john i'm going to be in Oceanside this weekend.
That's right your brother lives here. If my wife doesn't get called into work, then I'll be here for a bunch of hours on saturday, give me a call and i'll show you around.
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Hey john i'm going to be in Oceanside this weekend.
That's right your brother lives here. If my wife doesn't get called into work, then I'll be here for a bunch of hours on saturday, give me a call and i'll show you around.
Its my wifes family that lives there. I have a graduation to go it on Sunday. Saturday during the day maybe an option. I will call you. I will bring the beers....
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OK these Murakami stock screens are interesting. Does anyone have a guestimate of a typical 160 Murakami S Mesh cost from them? I am afraid of jaw dropping pricing.
I bought mine from West Star Solutions. Only company I saw that was selling them online. Price was about $27 each. Tension isn't great, but the mesh itself is awesome. My 150s are in the 15-16 newton range. 200s are a little higher. I'll switch to shurlocs eventually. But until then, I'm only using s-thread statics.
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28x38 EZ Frame 225/48 S Mesh
225 is 40 microns for S mesh. Standard mesh is 48. I know john knows this, but I wanted to correct it for anybody else looking for the info.
Pierre
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HI Allan B.
If I do get all the steps right in the murakami stretching instruction up to 24 Newtons before gluing the mesh with a stretching table.
http://murakamiscreen.com/stretching-smartmesh-on-common-stretching-devices/ (http://murakamiscreen.com/stretching-smartmesh-on-common-stretching-devices/)
Is it a good idea to let the mesh sit there for a day or two or massage is with a dough rolling pin then repulse it back to 24 Newtons then glue it? Or will it destroy the mesh fibres?
Thanks
Anthony
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28x38 EZ Frame 225/48 S Mesh
225 is 40 microns for S mesh. Standard mesh is 48. I know john knows this, but I wanted to correct it for anybody else looking for the info.
Pierre
Thanks for the correction.
Makes me question our mesh selection now as I was told we were using S mesh
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Just bought some 225-40 a few weeks ago. Such a great mesh count to have. 41% open area as far as I remember. Shame I forgot to mention in my order that I wanted yellow mesh. Bummer.
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I'd point out too, if you have tried these (or other good statics) and had serious tension loss issues, you may be running too high of OC habitually. Doesn't matter how nice a screen or good of mesh you have, you beat the crap out of it, you lose tension...
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There are two schools of thought on tensioning. The first is rapid tension, take it to the desired tension and glue immediately. The other is to stage the mesh by going to say 12, release completely, immediately go to 19 back to 0 then to 22, back to 0 and then to final tension, allow it to sit a few minutes, capture the 1-2 newtons that are lost and glue it down. If you have the time you can pre-soften the mesh with a weight or other method. I have seen great results both ways. A high volume shop may just take to tension, let it drop 1-2 newtons and bring up to tenion before gluing. For me staging does help. Athletes stretch before running and I think S mesh in particular likes the tension to be incremental to get accustomed to the tension. A lot depends on the stretching device, the better the stretcher, the more it has auto compensating corner softening and the more uniform the capture, the easier it is to take it to tension quickly and still get excellent results. We offer our stretched frames through our entire dealer network, or you can call the office here and we will work with your dealer to drop ship from here.
Alan Buffington
800.562.3534 ext 118
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We offer our stretched frames through our entire dealer network, or you can call the office here and we will work with your dealer to drop ship from here.
Alan Buffington
800.562.3534 ext 118
Do you offer re-stretch, or have recommendations out here on the left coast?
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My screen guy stages, once the mesh is at the tension he is aiming for he places weights on them for a while. Then he tensions back up to the desired tension and glues. His screens come almost work hardened to us because of the weights he uses but he is a specialty screen place only not open to the general industry for mass orders. But since he has some of our equipment and we have worked together for many years he hooks us up nicely.
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We restretch here in LA, Westar and Dimensional offer the service out of Washington area, and Kings Mountain Screen Service in North Carolina on the East coast also stretches on our frames or your clean aluminum frames. River City in Texas, Advanced Screen Technology in Phoenix, Multicraft in Ohio are a few others. Anyone on our dealer list can sell our pre-stretched and we do offer bulk re-stretching services if you want it done here on our stretcher as well.
http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-us-dealers/ (http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-us-dealers/)
Or you can call us here and we can arrange for your dealer to place a restretching order.
Alan Buffington
800.562.3534 ext 118
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Thanks Jon for the photo and reply.
Alan
Alan,
My post is not your screen. I just wanted to clarify that. My response was to the fact that statics can't hold tension over time or have high tension. Mainly pointed at john. By the way John has an amazing shop. Best shop I have ever seen. He has put alot of time and effort into that shop. Jak prints has to know they picked the right guy for the job.
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We restretch here in LA, Westar and Dimensional offer the service out of Washington area, and Kings Mountain Screen Service in North Carolina on the East coast also stretches on our frames or your clean aluminum frames. River City in Texas, Advanced Screen Technology in Phoenix, Multicraft in Ohio are a few others. Anyone on our dealer list can sell our pre-stretched and we do offer bulk re-stretching services if you want it done here on our stretcher as well.
[url]http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-us-dealers/[/url] ([url]http://murakamiscreen.com/murakami-us-dealers/[/url])
Or you can call us here and we can arrange for your dealer to place a restretching order.
Alan Buffington
800.562.3534 ext 118
I hate to bash Multicraft as they have been good to us, but I have given them several chances with the stretching and they keep failing miserably. Anybody looking for good screens, have them shipped to your dealer from Murakami. Without a doubt their screens were the best I've ever seen.
pierre
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There are two schools of thought on tensioning. The first is rapid tension, take it to the desired tension and glue immediately. The other is to stage the mesh
This was how I stretched my Newman frames for the first 10-12 years I made them. 305's would take me 3 days to make as I brought them up really slow, would weight them overnight then creep them up to production levels. Those were some glorious frames but the time to make them.. ugg!
Then I got a Roller Master and started going 25% over max tension and allowing them to rest down to production levels.
Doing this rapidly allowed the screen to hit the floor in hours and with 2-3 retensions, was golden.
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I bought us a small set of large, 36x45 or something, S thread statics direct for Murakami. Very nice screens at excellent tension for the size and reasonable cost. Murakami knows their own mesh and will tension it confidently. A lot of suppliers tend to get spooked and won't get up to target tension/working before gluing.
Statics are kind of a no-go for us considering location/shipping but I would have no problem running them if we were a little more local to a stretcher or stretched in house.
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Northwest Graphic(http://nwgraphic.com/ (http://nwgraphic.com/)) up here in MN will stretch them to upper 20's with the S mesh.
The thing we found is a "cheep" static frame can't hold the tension very well...
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Im using our slow time to edumacate myself and I have this question concerning s-mesh static's and retensionable frames that are running high tension.
Is the end results close when using either? A lower tension s-mesh static that has more open area versus a standard mesh retensionable running higher tension?
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I would say "about". But reten. "S" set to a bit higher tension than a s-static can be a very nice thing, fragile, but nice.
Murphy37
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On the opposite side of the fence I can't wait till some of my screens lose tension.
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On the opposite side of the fence I can't wait till some of my screens lose tension.
I have 50-100 "work softened" statics that I'd be willing to let go at a very reasonable price. ;D
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Ha.lol. Nice, this is why I'm likening the "S" statics lately, kind of a meeting in the middle.
Murphy37
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On the opposite side of the fence I can't wait till some of my screens lose tension.
I have 50-100 "work softened" statics that I'd be willing to let go at a very reasonable price. ;D
How much tension drop did you wind up having? (Not including those ones the mesh came unglued - I think that was you anyway.)
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Im using our slow time to edumacate myself and I have this question concerning s-mesh static's and retensionable frames that are running high tension.
Is the end results close when using either? A lower tension s-mesh static that has more open area versus a standard mesh retensionable running higher tension?
Having run standard mesh with high tension for a few years and just a little experience with S thread statics, I'd say no, not as close as you'd think. % open area with standard mesh and high tension isn't comparable to S thread at average tension. High tension standard mesh takes more maintenance and then your press better be calibrated very tightly or you'll have issues. If you have those roller frames you might as well put S thread in them or if you can find a good deal on used rollers. If you're thinking about investing in roller frames you should, in my opinion, fill them with the best mesh you can and for textile printing, it's S thread at the top and then all the rest.
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On the opposite side of the fence I can't wait till some of my screens lose tension.
I have 50-100 "work softened" statics that I'd be willing to let go at a very reasonable price. ;D
No doubt, I have like 200 up stairs I will sell at a crazy good price, if anybody wants them PM me.
We take very good care of our screens. So, not much ink on them but some old stains from a lot of use.
Murphy37
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How much tension drop did you wind up having? (Not including those ones the mesh came unglued - I think that was you anyway.)
The work softened post wasn't in regards to s-mesh statics, sorry for the mixup.
All of my s-mesh statics settled at 20N (which is plenty for s-thread), and I still use them daily. If I remember correctly, they work hardened at 2-3N less than what they arrived at. Really not much of a drop at all.
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I want to throw this out here. I started using S-mesh about a year ago. I use roller frames and have put about 30 screens with various mesh size in them 110S, 120, 135, 150, the one thing I have noticed and don't know if it something I am doing or not. But I have had 5 of the 30 rip, I have them taped and don't recall bumping them. Tension is not the problem. I was just wondering if I may have got some mesh that had been on the shelf a long time and was weak. Compared to my regular mesh it seems like I have a high mortality rate going on. Other that that I agree with what Alan and others say about them, they are a step up in quality.
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How much tension drop did you wind up having? (Not including those ones the mesh came unglued - I think that was you anyway.)
The work softened post wasn't in regards to s-mesh statics, sorry for the mixup.
All of my s-mesh statics settled at 20N (which is plenty for s-thread), and I still use them daily. If I remember correctly, they work hardened at 2-3N less than what they arrived at. Really not much of a drop at all.
Gotcha! That's not bad then.
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On the opposite side of the fence I can't wait till some of my screens lose tension.
I have 50-100 "work softened" statics that I'd be willing to let go at a very reasonable price. ;D
If they are rigid 36"x40" I'll take them!
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Me and the owner visited a shop last week in Manchester CT to check out their Douthitt machines. I cannot name the business but Rich would know who they are since they have many M&R presses including a new CHIII that was awesome to see in person.
Anyways this shop is huge and in league with places like New Buffalo, it blew my mind seeing this operation to say the least. And the best part is they have ZERO customers all they print is for their own line. A hugely successful line that many here would know.
Back to point I talked a ton with their head screen guy and a lot about S Mesh. He loves the S mesh but found the reject rate to high to be practical on anything above 150's. So they use more durable mesh on higher counts. This place goes through hundreds of screens a day and has a roller table the size of my office. He was a very smart guy that knew his chit, he showed me the box of tools collecting dust that he gave up on years ago. all those crazy tools to figure out OEM, film density, etc etc. What he came to understand being high production you need to find what works and stick with it, he reduced mesh counts down to a more managable inventory, tensions everything to identical numbers, uses the same emulsion on everything no matter what, uses the same inks, same chemistry on and on. He told me once this all happened everything ran smoother, money saved on not chasing perfection and things are far easier to track. Really does make sense. Seeing the work coming off their presses proved it as well.
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Same here on the s-statics tension settling @ 20n-21n.
And the old ones for sale are not "S" mesh.....23x31
Murphy37
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Inkman. Thank you so much for the kind words. I have been lurking around this board for a looong time. Never thought I'd find myself quoted here.
I just want to clarify that we find the S mesh more delicate than T and HD meshes for obvious reasons. It is. Dealing with the volume of screens that we do it's hard enough for my guys in the screen department to treat the screens carefully 100% of the time...and then there are the guys in the shop. Unfortunately practicality won out over technical superiority. But either way I would not say any of that mesh was defective. The pops and rips are all easily traceable back to people.
S-mesh is simply brilliant stuff. Since 150-S makes the best base plate I've ever used I would be foolish to not use it. Each setup only needs one base plate, occasionally we use it for X-Glue or Liquid Silver, etc, so it's pretty easy to keep those screens in stock. However since the 225 mesh makes up the vast majority of my ~600 screen inventory it was an uphill battle...up a greased hill...in a blizzard to keep the empty frame pile at a reasonable level. And that's before even worrying about the massive expense that pile represents.
It did break my heart to go back to 55lpi after seeing what 60lpi looked like. But for the vast majority of our designs the only people that would notice would be myself and the other veteran-printer-turned-manager.
Those kids in the shop have no idea how spoiled they are. They will never know the joy of attempting to squeeze Pop White through a 160/68 at 5am in late January. The last 160 that was floating around (for years) was used for a solid-fill white plate. 5 minutes on press until that operator was at my desk telling me how he had a screen that "didn't work."
The more I can do in the screen room to make jobs easier to set up and easier to replicate while lowering the barrier to entry for rookie printers the better. Reduce all the variables. Right?
Tomorrow is an R&D day...my favorite day of the week.
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Friday R&D- a man after my own heart.
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I'm jealous, I have to stay over the weekend to get any of that done. ;D
Kudos Dan, sounds like you know your stuff, and more importantly, your people.
I still struggle with the latter.
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Speaking of liquid silver. We ran a job yesterday using Liquid Silver through a 135S and damn if it was to much. The amount it laid down was amazing and I had to make some changes on press to keep it from being to much ink, S mesh is amazing stuff.
Glad to see you post Dan you have an amazing shop that would make many here zealous for sure, all the right tools for sure. Those all over rollers were massive!
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quick question, where is everyone buying the S tread statics at? anyone in the midwest? just for shipping purposes id like to get them from somewhere close. i want to try a few of these puppies in our shop. im sick of just reading about them :)
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quick question, where is everyone buying the S tread statics at? anyone in the midwest? just for shipping purposes id like to get them from somewhere close. i want to try a few of these puppies in our shop. im sick of just reading about them :)
We get ours from River City Graphic Supply in Texas. It's not very close to us, but they offer free shipping over $100.
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+2 for River City. Kevin runs a great operation there.
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River City as well, but he's a 10 minute drive from me :)
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placed an order for a few of them. guy responded in about 10 minutes saying they were shipping! pretty quick service.
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only a 4 minute drive for me! :D
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quick question, where is everyone buying the S tread statics at? anyone in the midwest? just for shipping purposes id like to get them from somewhere close. i want to try a few of these puppies in our shop. im sick of just reading about them :)
nwgraphic.com (http://nwgraphic.com) Up here in MN, ask for Ben he is a good guy.
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Just got my first batch of re-meshes from Spot Color Supply with S-Mesh. Can't wit to try these bad boys out. Had half done with the permanent block out to give that a whirl. Nice fast job guys!!!
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So that is remeshed with S-mesh? Definitely let us know how they hold up and print. I would love to have any popped or old screens remeshed with S-mesh and nobody really does it...
Careful with your pressure washer on that red glue by the way. I had a handful of screens a while ago with that glue and even my bottom of the barrel lowe's pressure washer on fan setting ate through it pretty quick. Not saying that is the norm, but something to look out for...
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What's crazy is the newman's I've had with S-Mesh on them have held up with no popping. I think a lot has to do with the stretching. Shurloc told me the exact tension to put on them and not to over do it and they have been great. I hope these hold up as well. Love printing through this mesh it's awesome stuff. I'm also anxious to see how well the blockout holds up. May help cut tape down big time.
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I've decided to bump this thread.
Lots of stuff here, and it might just catch the eye of someone who needs to see it.
I just got on board since the first of the year, with statics from Kevin @ River City. I've noticed how my waterbased DC jobs are staying open better.
Anybody else have something new to add since November?
Stan
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one thing I've learned is that you have to pick your restretching vendor carefully.
the guy in my area that does it, does not have the experience to correctly re-stretch S-mesh, and they come in at 17-18N, and drop to 13-14N after a few cycles... totally unacceptable in my book...
on a non-critical job yesterday, we compared printing at 14N with a 160S to printing with a 160S at 25N on a roller frame... (shurloc/murakami recommend 18-29N)... the 25N prints were WAY better, at less pressure...
Other than that, I LOVE s-mesh.
Can anyone comment on the River-City S-Mesh screens, incoming tension and how well they hold up after several cycles?
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All my Smesh screens are stretched by Murakami and have consistently been coming in at 22n.
Also, some of you guys have asked me to stock the SMesh panels, so we added the Shur loc panels for use with 23"x31" M3 Rollers.
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It's been almost a year and a half since I first got these and I have 3 of the original 5 left. We lost them both due to gorillas handling them and we've cut our screen damage in half since my last fit. All 3 are in the 19 to 20 newton range and for those mesh counts that is FAR superior to standard mesh at even 30 newtons. If anyone is still on the fence on whether or not they should at the very least try these, good lord just pull the trigger on a few of them and send us all a thank you letter when you realize you could have been printing like this for many years.
I thought I had put the tension levels somewhere in this thread, it should be full of real-world tension levels we've seen.
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Kev - can you guys do permanent blockout on the edges?
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I don't do that, but we sell the permanent block out. I would be worried I would block out too much or too little depending on the end users expectations.
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Newman Roller users should consider using Shurloc panels when printing with Murakami S Mesh. There are 2 reasons.
1. The mesh rests on the plastic strip that shurloc adheres to the mesh and not on the sharp inside edge of the Newmans which are often nicked or dented and not friendly to fine thread meshes.
2. They are pre-softened in the corners and tension well, but most impotantly save you a ton of time (labor$) to capture and tension.
Al
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I don't do that, but we sell the permanent block out. I would be worried I would block out too much or too little depending on the end users expectations.
You're worried of providing a certain level of standards to the end user?? But that's a key offering. I figure they'll respect what you've got to offer more..
Sent using Tapatalk
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we have only a handful left with permanent blockout on them... our screen washer girl HATES them... causes sprayback when pressure washing the corners... also, the scoop coater tends to get stuck on the blockout after a few dozen reclaim cycles.
We're now mostly Newman (thanks Greg K), but any statics we get from here on out will not have permanent blockout (and i'll probably be calling Kev at River City about them)...
I would have loved permanent blockout and not taping to work out, but the extra mess and hassle is just not worth it to us here.
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we have only a handful left with permanent blockout on them... our screen washer girl HATES them... causes sprayback when pressure washing the corners... also, the scoop coater tends to get stuck on the blockout after a few dozen reclaim cycles.
We're now mostly Newman (thanks Greg K), but any statics we get from here on out will not have permanent blockout (and i'll probably be calling Kev at River City about them)...
I would have loved permanent blockout and not taping to work out, but the extra mess and hassle is just not worth it to us here.
I tried the permanent blockout years ago, had to be about 5 years ago, and it was a HASSLE. The concept is without a doubt great, but conceptual and actual were not one in the same. I remember the spray back, and because I'm a weirdo I tried to get the blockout perfectly even and straight and it took me hours to do 2 screens. I gave up and said screw it, buy some more tape.
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we have only a handful left with permanent blockout on them... our screen washer girl HATES them... causes sprayback when pressure washing the corners... also, the scoop coater tends to get stuck on the blockout after a few dozen reclaim cycles.
We're now mostly Newman (thanks Greg K), but any statics we get from here on out will not have permanent blockout (and i'll probably be calling Kev at River City about them)...
I would have loved permanent blockout and not taping to work out, but the extra mess and hassle is just not worth it to us here.
same here, we hate permanant blockout for those reasons.
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If someone could figure out a viable solution to the tape problem they'd be an instant half-millionaire.
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LOVE our S-Mesh statics from River City!
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I can see the splash back.
The panels for Newmans are a good for another reason too-
With mesh locked in the strips, you can be assured the mesh will be "even tension" all the way around the frame
being so tender. When loading s bolt mesh using clips and such, it can be relatively even, but invariably there will
be some low and high spots, leading to premature failure.
Maybe they are not all the same, but the corner softening in ones we have so far seems to be massive,
making for shorter image area. Maybe they will tighten up once worked and rolled.
Like the less pressure though!
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Gary you can have Shur-loc use less corner softening in your panels, they're pretty cool about that.
We don't use panels but did try a round of them in the past due to only one shop member being able to stretch bolt mesh at the time and a need for about 30 screens fast.