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screen printing => General Screen Printing => Topic started by: shirtz on November 25, 2013, 08:53:14 PM
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Epson 4900, 14"wide fixxons roll film. Our seps are not lining up. Almost like the film is being stretched.
Not just a liitle but as much as 1/8" in 19" long output.
Is this common?
Any ideas?
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from what I understand, this is actually common, especially with the roll. There are ways to compensate for it digitally, but the easiest fix would be to cut the films rather than use them off the roll.
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The films never line up on my 1400 if I stack the films but the reg marks and image still line up if that makes sense.
To your issue have you tried unrolling the roll of film before it feeds it? Maybe there is too much tension on the roll, I know that happens with my vinyl cutter if it is trying to pull it off the roll.
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Depends on if using a rip, in the rip you usually can adjust this. I run a 4800 rolled using ulano film and rarely have problems.
Shane
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Epson 4900, 14"wide fixxons roll film. Our seps are not lining up. Almost like the film is being stretched.
Not just a liitle but as much as 1/8" in 19" long output.
Is this common?
Any ideas?
it sounds like a feeding problem. The compensation others have mentioned only works when you are getting consistent results and the output is too long or too short. Check your rollers and the spindle that carries the film. It is spring loaded and only operates correctly in one direction (supposedly).
pierre
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On a Wasatch RIP for example you can apply crop marks and extend them around the whole image area. That way the Epson printer avoids skipping areas that are empty. Helps a lot. Alternatively you can draw as well the outlines of a square around the whole image area in Illustrator or what ever software you use and use the registration swatch so it prints on each film.
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If mine ever go out it is at the end of a roll, totally random too. As others have mentioned it could be a feed calibration problem from your Rip also. Wasatch has a way to recalibrate it with a file you can print, measure, then change a setting to handle it. In Wasatch you can also adjust for the thickness of your film which may or may not make a difference. Your rip may be different or or may not allow for this. I have also been having really good luck with the 17" film I have been using, it is nice to rotate images to save footage, they also offer 14". I forget the company we get it from being I normally deal with the owner & I am headed towards senility lol. Hit up dirkdigler if you would like to know the place to get it for a try out.
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We are using accurip, I think I saw a option for lining it up in the software. I'll check that out.
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I too notice this issue. Its exactly as you mentioned and on the Epson Pro 4900. But with further investigation we have found that its not in fact stretching the film but squishing it. Its still off as you say but where we thought it was stretching it too its actually the opposite. We also notice this only happens (randomly) on the last 10-15 feet or 7 jobs of the roll. Can you confirm the same thing? Also did you ever find a solution. :-\
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same here and still no fix, same problem on 2 different 4900s.
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have you considered the film you're using..
are you buying it based soley on price or because it works best for you.
Like they say, you get what you pay for.
I know wasatch has a calibration feature that is designed for long prints over 18" in length. It prints little marks and you measure them and it will adjust the feed for you.
Another thing is to only print the image the same way, IE don't rotate this and that to make the best use of the film.
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I'm using a epson 7700 and fixxons film. I lay the film on my FPU and try my best not to stretch the film when I tape the 4 corners and still I have the problem of the top 2 marks lining up but have to stretch the film slightly to get the bottom ones to match up. I've been using the 24" wide film but just got a new batch of 17" film hoping that will solve the problem. I stopped just sending all of my films out at once in illustrator and started sending them one at a time after I unroll the film some first which is an extreme time killer. That solved some of it but not all. It really makes it a b**(** at the press to fine tune. I know the fixxons film is really inexpensive compared to many others out there and it's a 4 mil film. I'm just wondering if 5 mil film would stop the stretching. I saw it advertised at like a $100 a roll which is expensive compared to the fixxons but if that would solve the problem then it would be worth it by a mile because the extra $20 would be saved easily in pre-press time.
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have you considered the film you're using..
are you buying it based soley on price or because it works best for you.
Like they say, you get what you pay for.
I know wasatch has a calibration feature that is designed for long prints over 18" in length. It prints little marks and you measure them and it will adjust the feed for you.
Another thing is to only print the image the same way, IE don't rotate this and that to make the best use of the film.
I tried all kinds of brands with the same problems. NOW, that Wasatch feature you mention...need to try that, how do you do it?
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Yeah, all different film, no luck, and it doesn't matter how they art is rotated the design gets shrunk slightly length-wise. Again note: Its NOT stretching.... its getting smaller. There has to be an epson specific calibration or issue as it appears some of us are using different rip softwares but the same issue... right?
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have you guys tried printing stuff without the rip? see if it is the rip or the printer or the film. When I had this issue, it was a mechanical problem on the printer.
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For as long as can remember, I have heard of rolls being more problematic on this than sheets.
The printers are being asked to do a job best described as "off label use", and their feed doesn't always seem up to our tasks and needs.
Have any of you tried cutting the film or, as suggested, slightly reducing tension on the roll?
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Yes. Still happens regardless of the rip. But I kind of figured when I started hearing other people with other rip softwares with the same issue. But we tested it to be sure. Same issue regardless of the rip software of the rotation.
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I just ordered 5 mil film to try it out. If that doesn't work then I have 5 rolls to cut in sheets. Until I can swing a DTS. As far as tension on the roll feeder there are 3 settings on the Epson 7700 "Normal" "Strong" and "Strongest". Mine is already set at normal
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I do have the 4800 service manuals that techs have if you are interested, I'll see if I can e-mail it.
here's what was wrong on mine.
If you are facing the printer, the left side cover comes off with a few screws. towards the back you will see a round dial attached to the spindle. This dial has various markings on it that rotates through a sensor. clean that off with some alcohol -I used moonshine and a Q-Tip ;D -- clean off the sensor too, problem solved...now this was just my issue, it may not work, but it might be worth a shot...pun intended..
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Just had this happen, towards an end of a roll. Registration marks on one color don't line up. printed it three times, all wrong. Other colors printed right. It was odd, not sure if it is a printer thing or a rip thing since three times in a row it printed the wrong thing.
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I printed many a roll from my 4000 over the past couple years and I can only remember on a few occasions where i got some shrink/stretch
I was using dye inks and non waterproof film
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Just had this happen, towards an end of a roll. Registration marks on one color don't line up. printed it three times, all wrong. Other colors printed right. It was odd, not sure if it is a printer thing or a rip thing since three times in a row it printed the wrong thing.
The 3 that printed wrong of that color have you checked to see if those three line up with each other. Just wondering if they are off by the same amount each time you print that color. If they do line up that would tell you that it's more than likely the printer or rip. If they don't and they are off by different amounts then it's probably the film shrinking, stretching or expanding.
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On a Wasatch RIP for example you can apply crop marks and extend them around the whole image area. That way the Epson printer avoids skipping areas that are empty. Helps a lot. Alternatively you can draw as well the outlines of a square around the whole image area in Illustrator or what ever software you use and use the registration swatch so it prints on each film.
Thanks Matthias, I tried it today with a rectangle outline around the print image, and it worked great. Solved my problem on a T1100
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Yep regardless of rip software it still does it. Definitely seems like a printer issues. Not sure if the weight of the roll is triggering some sort of offset, or if the printer is feeding slightly faster near the end because of a lack of tension or what but there is an issue for sure. Really hoping someone has found the solution. Or at least is aware of the issue and sorting it out at Epson.
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I've cut 5 pieces of film off of a roll and printing films as sheets that I had difficulties with lining up the other day to see if that solves my problem. I'll post results
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It also will happen when too much ink is laid down and there are large areas of ink. I had this happen on a 18 inch tall print of a mushroom. The only film that was off was the base film where the largest deposit of ink was laid down by the printer. That coating contracts a little as it absorbs the ink.
With Wasatch you can compensate for it. I just do not remember how to do it right now. I know you print out a long section of film and measure the crop marks and adjust it in the rip. You might have to do it several times but it will calibrate it. I only ever run into issues where it might be a hair off up in the 20 inch tall print range. Even then it is so minimal it is not noticeable enough to the untrained naked eye.
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Well cutting it in sheets instead of printing off a roll didn't help it here.
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Can you snap a pic of the image area and where it is off?
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I'll post pics when in a little bit. After printing the sheet 2 were perfect and the 3rd 4th and 5th the top would line up and the bottom was off by about 1/8 inch. Then changed the roll feeder tension from normal to high and that seemed to fix my problem with all 5 films lining up. Which is exactly opposite of what I thought. I thought the tension was too high already.
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Just had this happen, towards an end of a roll. Registration marks on one color don't line up. printed it three times, all wrong. Other colors printed right. It was odd, not sure if it is a printer thing or a rip thing since three times in a row it printed the wrong thing.
The 3 that printed wrong of that color have you checked to see if those three line up with each other. Just wondering if they are off by the same amount each time you print that color. If they do line up that would tell you that it's more than likely the printer or rip. If they don't and they are off by different amounts then it's probably the film shrinking, stretching or expanding.
It was the distance, about .25 inches. In corel draw I went from page to page on seps and the marks on that page were correct. Makes me think it's the rip. I use accurip
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You will want to adjust the suction as well. Try -3 and see how much that helps. (Thank Pablo at Parmale for that tip). I just printed a set of films at 22" between reg marks and every color is dead on.
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I am not noticing any type of tension setting in the 4900. I don't see a manual way of tightening or loosening it either. And rom what I can tell the amount that it is off each time is random. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I did notice however today, as a random test. That it seemed.... my removing the roll that was about to expire. And placing it back in after powering off and powering back on the printer that it didn't seem to stretch or squish the image any further.... (did I discover some sort of reloading or new roll tension reset)?
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This is the result of what I got when I cut sheets off of a roll. Either I could line up the top two or the bottom 2 but not both at the same time. I increased the roll feed tension and the problem went away at least for one 5 color separation. I've been fighting this problem for awhile and it's been a nightmare so I decided to fix it on my day off. I took the picture with an iphone so I had to just snap 4 individual pics and put them on 1 page in PS. I hope you make them out. I just wonder how many are using the fixxons film? I'm not bashing it by any means because I've used it for about a year now and I don't know for sure that increasing the tension has really solved my problem for good because I only ran out the one 5 color separation. I'm just saying it's either the film or something else has happened because I don't remember having this problem before.
UPS just delivered a 5 pack of 17 inch fixxons film that I ordered but to find out if it makes a difference I also ordered a roll of 5 mil film which is what I used before I started ordering from fixxons but I'll have to set my tension back to the original setting to make if fair.
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I am not noticing any type of tension setting in the 4900. I don't see a manual way of tightening or loosening it either. And rom what I can tell the amount that it is off each time is random. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I did notice however today, as a random test. That it seemed.... my removing the roll that was about to expire. And placing it back in after powering off and powering back on the printer that it didn't seem to stretch or squish the image any further.... (did I discover some sort of reloading or new roll tension reset)?
Here is a link for yours: https://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pro49_/pro49_ug.pdf if youre using windows it's on page 77 if you use a mac it's on page 98
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its not the film, I use a different brand, but have the same problem.
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its not the film, I use a different brand, but have the same problem.
I second that on the film. That is not the problem unless way too much ink is laid down. Try these settings below. I think I have them all on there.
(http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt25/Inkwerksspd/Printer1_zps4b8a3e5b.jpg) (http://s594.photobucket.com/user/Inkwerksspd/media/Printer1_zps4b8a3e5b.jpg.html)
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its not the film, I use a different brand, but have the same problem.
I second that on the film. That is not the problem unless way too much ink is laid down. Try these settings below. I think I have them all on there.
([url]http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt25/Inkwerksspd/Printer1_zps4b8a3e5b.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s594.photobucket.com/user/Inkwerksspd/media/Printer1_zps4b8a3e5b.jpg.html[/url])
Whoa! thanks for that, will take a look at our settings on Monday.
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I'll try that as well. If it works we'll owe you something because you'll be saving us mucho time.
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If you guys get stuck just PM me and we can go through all the menus together to make sure you do not miss a setting. I have not had to calibrate the stretch in Wasatch yet and so far up to 28 inches tall my films line up fine. I can print out a 1000 mm piece of film in Wasatch and measure its length. if it measures short or long that number can be plugged in to compensate for the stretch. That is the next fix if the above settings wont fix your issues.
I should add we use 17 in Fixxons film. The wider the film the less stretch you get as well. Just in case someone is running a 13 in roll.
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I second that on the film. That is not the problem unless way too much ink is laid down. Try these settings below. I think I have them all on there.
Giving it a try, thanks.
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Im a little confused. You are suggesting to "decrease" the paper suction to -3? According to the documentation you would decrease the suction when printing on lighter mediums... I would think for waterproof film being its thick you would want to increase it right? Heck, we are willing to try anything at this point, just trying to understand the logic behind the fix. And thanks again for suggesting it! I don't know that I have ever noticed that in the print settings, I certainly have never noticed it on the printer. Im about to go looking for it right now.
We also use a 5mil roll of waterproof film 17" x 100' (2 inch core)
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Another question though somewhat off topic is... does anyone know what to set the cutter adjustment to when your cutting roll film?
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Im a little confused. You are suggesting to "decrease" the paper suction to -3? According to the documentation you would decrease the suction when printing on lighter mediums... I would think for waterproof film being its thick you would want to increase it right? Heck, we are willing to try anything at this point, just trying to understand the logic behind the fix. And thanks again for suggesting it! I don't know that I have ever noticed that in the print settings, I certainly have never noticed it on the printer. Im about to go looking for it right now.
We also use a 5mil roll of waterproof film 17" x 100' (2 inch core)
The little vacuum in there can pull the film down in the channel a bit causing drag and distortion. The key is to have it suck just enough to keep it off the print head.
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The little vacuum in there can pull the film down in the channel a bit causing drag and distortion. The key is to have it suck just enough to keep it off the print head.
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That makes perfect sense. I never thought of it that way. Anyway, I've made the changes you've suggested and it looks like it has solved the problem. If you are ever in Southeast Arkansas give me a shout and I'll owe you lunch or something. Thanks again.
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Tried the settings posted made it close to the end of the role and the same registration problem.
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I've had this problem for about 6 months where I would have to fool with the micros on 5 out of 6 jobs. I was thinking that the stops on my pallet jig was wearing. my printer was screwing up or any number of factors that might be the problem. I'd even wake up at night thinking about it, it was driving me crazy.
I've been using fixxons film. Last week I splurged a little and instead of paying $79.00 per roll of 17" waterproof film from fixxons, I paid $122.00 for the same size roll. Between yesterday and today I had 6 multicolor jobs and only had to use the micros on 1 of the jobs and just 1 of the colors. The film I bought was a 5 mil film instead of using the 4 mil from fixxons.
I was noticing that the 4 mil film was stretching to some extent. Sometimes being off all the way around. The 5 mil doesn't. From now on that's the film I'll use because the extra cost of the film is easily made up at the press. I'm not knocking fixxons because it may work for a lot of printers but for me it wasn't happening. Also, I was able to lower the droplet weight in accurip to get the same amount of opaque black.
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I've had this problem for about 6 months where I would have to fool with the micros on 5 out of 6 jobs. I was thinking that the stops on my pallet jig was wearing. my printer was screwing up or any number of factors that might be the problem. I'd even wake up at night thinking about it, it was driving me crazy.
I've been using fixxons film. Last week I splurged a little and instead of paying $79.00 per roll of 17" waterproof film from fixxons, I paid $122.00 for the same size roll. Between yesterday and today I had 6 multicolor jobs and only had to use the micros on 1 of the jobs and just 1 of the colors. The film I bought was a 5 mil film instead of using the 4 mil from fixxons.
I was noticing that the 4 mil film was stretching to some extent. Sometimes being off all the way around. The 5 mil doesn't. From now on that's the film I'll use because the extra cost of the film is easily made up at the press. I'm not knocking fixxons because it may work for a lot of printers but for me it wasn't happening. Also, I was able to lower the droplet weight in accurip to get the same amount of opaque black.
Fool with the micros? If there was a film problem, that wouldn't have solved it.
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My film wasn't lining up on my FPU. I did change the settings to the recommended by Jblue and it did solve it to some extent but my reg marks weren't lining up 100%. I always print an extra film to lay on my FPU table and tape it down but the subsequent films reg marks wouldn't match the marks of the first film. They would either be too short, too long or even occasionally be out of whack all the way around. When I noticed that a particular film wasn't matching, I would print another of that exact film "sometimes I would have to print as many as 10 films for a 5 color job". Sometimes the reprint of the exact film would match up and others it would be off in a different way then the first film just like it. I knew when they wouldn't line up on the FPU that there would be problems at the press. When I said "fool with the micros" I would just try to adjust it to where the amount off was even all around and not so noticeable.
With the 5 mil film they match up quicker/easier and my setups so far have been 5 out of 6 perfectly registered so far so I'm pretty positive it's the film. I went the longest with very rarely unlocking the micros so it was blowing my mind as to why I started having this problem then it dawned on me that I had started buying different film because of the savings. Like I said the 4 mil film may work for a lot of printers but for me I'll have to switch to a 5 mil. It could also be that the epson 7700 I have doesn't print the 4 mil as well as the 5mil.
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There is that old saying " You get what you pay for " Its good for film and especially white inks............... ;)
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The little vacuum in there can pull the film down in the channel a bit causing drag and distortion. The key is to have it suck just enough to keep it off the print head.
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That makes perfect sense. I never thought of it that way. Anyway, I've made the changes you've suggested and it looks like it has solved the problem. If you are ever in Southeast Arkansas give me a shout and I'll owe you lunch or something. Thanks again.
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I will take you up on that!
I am glad it worked out for you. If anyone else needs help with it dont hesitate to get a hold of me. Happy to share.
Might as well throw it in there. 6 jobs today and only had to bump the micros twice. Once was my fault. I flipped the clamp release instead if the squeegee. Still it was almost dead on. Anyone can get pretty dead nuts setups if they take the time to do it right and have good (blue) machines.