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screen printing => Ink and Chemicals => Topic started by: alan802 on November 21, 2013, 03:35:00 PM
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So we have Rutland Super Poly, Triangle Excel and Excalibur Athletic white that we've used for printing on poly shirts. I know Wilflex has their Top Score inks and Union Athletic white, One Stroke has one that a local shop is using so I know we have quite a few choices. I would like to know what everyone is using for a 100% poly red that has a white imprint?
We carry some low bleed spot colors but we haven't invested in the inks that cure at 290 to 300 degrees and since these 100% poly shirts are taking over around here, I'm thinking it might be time to get a system like the top score from Wilflex or something comparable. With inks curing at 290, we still won't be able to set the dryer to a temp below 320 so the shirts will be reaching the magic 320 degrees no matter what ink we use. For our ink temp to reach 310, the dryer is set to 360-370 with a belt speed of 20'/min which allows us to print fairly fast, but you see the ink temp lags far behind the actual temp inside the dryer but the shirts themselves get up to the 360-370 easily.
On another note, I just looked at a sample print we did with the Rutland Poly a few months back and compared it to a print we did earlier this week and the change is dramatic. There is far more puff in the last gallon than the test prints I did a few months ago and it's bubbling up in so many places. The bubbling will stop when I turn the dryer down to where I know the inks are not reaching 300 but I don't have any donut probe numbers to back up my thoughts but I know that dryer well. I've ran hundreds of probe tests through the dryer and know how the inks react at what temp and belt speed to have a good idea.
We just had another job that was on sport tek 100% poly shirts and we've seen major shrinkage before with these shirts but this time it's bad enough that we have to replace shirts. The conversation with our rep that we bought the shirts from didn't go well and they sent me the "tip sheet" for printing on 100% poly shirts and the contradictions on that sheet are freaking hilarious. It says to use 85-110 mesh but only flash for 1-2 seconds, ha. Then it says to put a layer of dyno grey base through an 85-110 then our standard poly white through the same mesh count then top colors if needed BUT the shirt must not get over 320 degrees. Most of us that have mapped our dryers with a donut probe or those of us that have dryers with accurate temp readings know that to get the entire ink deposit that has been printed with at least 2 layers of ink through 85-110 mesh without getting the shirt itself over 320 would require a belt speed so slow that we'd never get anything done. It also says to not get the shirts over 320 because of dye migration, but most of us know that dye migration occurs at a much lower temp, 250 degrees.
Sorry for the additional read but what is everyone using for 100% poly shirts?
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We use the Union Athletic.. i like it.. the coaches come back in they are wearing the poly shirts we printed the white on and still look great. We have not printed on red but we do a ton on maroon poly.
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i cannot say it enough use one stroke color max white. yes it is more $ but you will no longer have any of these issues. Plus if you tell one stroke what shirt you are printing they will tell you the best ink for it, as they have tested most of our industry fabrics. my contact is robb mears.
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Reg or Mustang here.
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On other posts too:
Wilflex Extreme first choice / Quick second
-156 -Flash- 156
Not too much heat in dryer and covers enough as not to raise and pucker fabric.
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Get a bucket of WFX Performance White and try it. Skip the Top Score White, inferior coverage and stretch properties to Performance. Perf will cost you but you'll be repaid on press and with the finished print. 1% or so of viscosity buster if/when it's really needed. Warm and stir first before assuming it needs the v buster.
Stupid slow belt speed is a plus and will be needed on the worst of it but you can solve a lot of issues with this in pre-press, steering clients away from big, blocky areas right from the get go. It's an easy sell- you don't want your moisture wicking performance shirt covered in a non-breathable patch. Out belt runs at about 5 (TexAir w. 10' chamber) for all jobs except those where we can get away with boosting the panel temp and need more belt capacity.
I've never had a poly shirt shrink on us like you described but we tend to run less of those jobs and higher volume when they come through so I haven't experienced it all. I default to SanMar's stuff a lot (ST350 is often the best deal available) and have found UltraClub to run fine as well.
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Hey Alan,
I know some have talked about the silicone ink on here and I also talked to another shop in my area recently about this ink a few weeks ago. The guy I was talking to does a bunch of poly and just got tired of all the problems with it so he has been using it and claims it is amazing. You may want to try some if you are doing a lot of poly printing.
We just don't do a huge amount of poly but when we do we run the dryer at around 350 and about 45 seconds dwell. Don't usually have issues. If we get above that temp it is hit or miss.
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Ran a lot of 100% poly st350's yesterday using the Rutland Super Poly white for the first time. Very thick ink, I think it can actually be reduced a little and work well, will have to try that, but it is suuuuuuuper opaque, very nicely priced, we paid 84 for a gal, and didn't bleed like we have had happen in the past with some others. We were using Wilflex performance white, but between it's price, and the inconsistency we were seeing from bucket to bucket, I think Rutland Super Poly white is our winner for now. Is it just me, or does it have a very unique scent, almost like auto paint lol.
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Wilflex Performance White rocks. The only issue we had was the "ageing" of the ink during transport. Got a lot thicker during the flight which means we have to reduce it a bit.
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Lot of ink info, what about your screen specs guys?
Laying it on thick or hfh? This will tell the neexed second half of
the story.
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we have been using the crap out of the ICC low cure white. the hand is incredible out of the bucket. Smooth and easy to print
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I use Rutland NPT HO Low Bleed White, seems to have a little puff to it, but PFP and it's golden.
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Ran the batch of st350's with 160/64. Hoping to have our first smart mesh panels from shurloc in today. I didn't go with the lx want to try the straight "s" panels first. Have a bunch of st350's to do next week and am anxious to see the same ink through the s mesh.
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The Rutland super poly that we are using today has too much puff. We are printing 100% poly hoodies right now and one stroke they are almost perfect but then when you run through the dryer the ink puffs up and then the shirt begins to show through so pfp is a must. Then we tried going to a higher mesh a bit ago and it's so cold outside the poly white wouldn't go through a 195/55. They are putting a 180/48 on the press right now to see if we can clear it and I've got the ink inside warming up. We originally were printing these hoodies through a 123/55 which doesn't deposit a thick layer like you'd think, but pfp with the puff is too tall of an ink deposit for my tastes.
I use Rutland NPT HO Low Bleed White, seems to have a little puff to it, but PFP and it's golden.
I have not heard of this one.
we have been using the crap out of the ICC low cure white. the hand is incredible out of the bucket. Smooth and easy to print
Is that what it's called, "Low Cure White"?
Hey Alan,
I know some have talked about the silicone ink on here and I also talked to another shop in my area recently about this ink a few weeks ago. The guy I was talking to does a bunch of poly and just got tired of all the problems with it so he has been using it and claims it is amazing. You may want to try some if you are doing a lot of poly printing.
We just don't do a huge amount of poly but when we do we run the dryer at around 350 and about 45 seconds dwell. Don't usually have issues. If we get above that temp it is hit or miss.
I have printed some samples of the silicone based white on 100% red poly and it did great as far as bleed resistance goes. Opacity was ok, the ink was too much like some of the discharge whites though and wouldn't sit on top of the fabric all that well. The main problem with the silicone ink is price, and then I don't think you can print plastisol on top so using it as an underbase is out. But for white designs on darks I suppose it would work great if I could stomach the price.
And we have two suggestions for Performance white from Wilflex. I can have some of that in here on Monday, I might just get that in here to try it out.
Ran a lot of 100% poly st350's yesterday using the Rutland Super Poly white for the first time. Very thick ink, I think it can actually be reduced a little and work well, will have to try that, but it is suuuuuuuper opaque, very nicely priced, we paid 84 for a gal, and didn't bleed like we have had happen in the past with some others. We were using Wilflex performance white, but between it's price, and the inconsistency we were seeing from bucket to bucket, I think Rutland Super Poly white is our winner for now. Is it just me, or does it have a very unique scent, almost like auto paint lol.
It does stink. No puff issues with your bucket? The print we are doing this morning was puffing well over 150 microns from it's height before the dryer.
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It's the EL9074 poly/cotton ink. I'd guess it doesn't puff as much because it's for blends, but I use it on 100% as well. Printing some maroon 100% poly hoodies today. Think the screen is 150/48 but could be a 135. If I can find a spare black poly tee I'll run a couple test prints with it and post the single hit, pfp results.
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Wilflex Performance white is the Mutts Nuts!
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we have been using the crap out of the ICC low cure white. the hand is incredible out of the bucket. Smooth and easy to print
Is that what it's called, "Low Cure White"?
yep, item 7113, we get it from GSG.
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I'll also say I'm looking forward to trialing the HSA inks for this. Preliminary test with standard WB inks on poly has come out very strong so if the HSA has the opacity and durability it could be a go. The cost is just as high as high end plastisol however.
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Does anyone have any experience with the worst named ink that I've ever heard of...horse white? :) I think I tried some a while ago and can't remember how it performed other than I think it was very glossy/shiny.
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Does anyone have any experience with the worst named ink that I've ever heard of...horse white? :) I think I tried some a while ago and can't remember how it performed other than I think it was very glossy/shiny.
was it that xenon pony white or something like that? i recall it being super glossy too.
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Does anyone have any experience with the worst named ink that I've ever heard of...horse white? :) I think I tried some a while ago and can't remember how it performed other than I think it was very glossy/shiny.
was it that xenon pony white or something like that? i recall it being super glossy too.
That would be the one.
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Yes. It is called mu$t@ng White and the site filters change it. It cures at 258 degrees and can go on nylon without an additive. It can be made in a mat finish if desired.
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Wilflex Performance white is the Mutts Nuts!
I disagree Alan, I think Dog Balls White is probably the worst name ever for a white ink.
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Pony white? lol that is awesome!!! Sonny, has Xenon come up with any msds yet that are more definitive as to what is or isn't in any of the products?
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It's the EL9074 poly/cotton ink. I'd guess it doesn't puff as much because it's for blends, but I use it on 100% as well. Printing some maroon 100% poly hoodies today. Think the screen is 150/48 but could be a 135. If I can find a spare black poly tee I'll run a couple test prints with it and post the single hit, pfp results.
Correction, I have the NPT Super Poly White. Printing on maroon Badger 100% poly hoodies today, this is a print/flash/print/flash/top colors. Only 20 so time flashing wasn't an issue. In my opinion, the ink didn't puff too much, just enough through a 150/48 screen. I probably could have just double stroked it, flash, then top colors but it wasn't worth the risk testing for such a low quantity.
Single super slow stroke on a red 100% poly badger ls tee was opaque enough but didn't fully cover the shirt, had tiny cracks in the deposit of ink telling me it wasn't thick enough.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/ABalFacNnOnmA-jCT-BH8PIdfN37blLTigCZPIx8m3Y=w1152-h864-no)
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we haven't notices much of a puff either so far. I wonder, depending on distributors, if the mixes are altered at all. I know some of the big distributors buy in large vats, some may actually alter, not sure about that. I know the first 5 gal of street fighter we got through Rhoder, was a bit looser than the 5ers we got from Tubelight. Both distributors had in house labels printed and stuck to the buckets. Same size buckets but the Tubelite buckets were almost bursting out the top they were so full, where the Rhoder 5er had about 6" of open space. The Street fighter from Tubelite seems to be more opaque too. Makes ya wonder some times.
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If you all would just try the Wilflex Performance white, that would put an end to this thread;)
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Used performance for the pat year and a half, price jump is rediculous.
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Used performance for the pat year and a half, price jump is rediculous.
agree, but it is awesome!
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I have Wilflex Performance White as well as Wilfex Performance Underbase Grey.
Is it ok to use standard cure temp (Wilflex Epic) inks on top of low cure temp (Wilflex Performance) inks?
Will the higher oven temp defeat the purpose of using a low cure as an underbase / bleed blocker on poly blends?
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Used performance for the pat year and a half, price jump is rediculous.
Sometimes this is the worst way to look at it. There is not an ink out there that is not worth every penny if it does what you need it to do. There are so many post of people using crappy products and wondering why it does not work right, print right, block dye, flood right, have good opacity.....bla bla bla. Sorry tha last parts the beer talking....... ;)
If you factor in the time wasted trying to get crappy products to work like good products you never come out ahead. For example: If your shop rate is 200.00 per hour to run and you spend that our messing around with ink your savings is right out the window. Not only did you lose that 200 for the hour wasted but how many shirts could you have printed in that hour? 500 pieces, 800 pcs? Is that really worth 80.00-100.00 dollars in a price difference for 5 gallons? Not how I see it. I can honestly say that I have tried or tested almost every white out there. Some of the ones mentioned here suck. It is what it is.
If you have Harbor Freight quality products you get Harbor Freight results. There is a reason why its cheap. Its because they are not putting the good stuff that makes the better products work.
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I'd pay $500/5 gal for a white if it was good enough to get everything I wanted out of it, but like Blue, I've used so many different white inks the last few years it's hard to keep track. I agree that with white ink price shouldn't be the main factor, but too many times we've used a cheaper white ink and gotten better results than with some of the expensive inks so price is not always a determiner of performance. Many times it is though. I'm fairly certain some ink manufacturers sell the same basic ink with very slight adjustments or perhaps none at all and label it something different, charge a different price for it and most shops never know. Printers are a weird bunch. I've given my guy a gallon of white to test and he hates it, then I ask him what he thinks I should mix together and what percentages and then I give him something totally different than what he asked for but he loves it because he thinks it's his formula. Sometimes I really wonder how some shops are using some white inks because too many times I've tested an ink and thought it was terrible only to hear others rave about it. Then I'll rave about an ink only to hear that others thought it was terrible. We might be the only shop using the Tidy white with success but there hasn't been another ink that has given us as many one hit prints than it, and it's not even close really. It's not production friendly but when mixed thoroughly and altered very slightly it becomes friendly. Just like the old qcm 159 versus 158, I much preferred the printed results of the 159 but it climbed the squeegee too bad for real production and the 158 wasn't much better but we used it more. The 158 wasn't as opaque nor did it flash as quickly but it was still a pretty good ink. The 158 reminds me a lot of the Miami smooth.
I gladly pay more for the Tidy white and then alter it slightly so it doesn't climb the squeegee but I still test new inks all the time because you never know. The Miami whites really surprised me with their performance and they are the cheapest we've used besides street fighter. SF is good for the price, probably the best white for that price that there ever was, but it just isn't opaque enough for us. I've gotten a gallon of SF and a gallon of snap only to not be able to tell the difference between the two and wonder why we paid more for the snap when it looked, felt, and performed exactly like the SF.
I love talking white ink, I've got two poly whites to test coming in on Monday and I'll post my thoughts and results next week.
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Less than $500/5 will buy you the best ink on the planet- Wilflex.
Try a gallon Alan. Unless I missed it, read most of your posts and haven't seen
this PolyOne/Wilflex brand. Have you extensively tested any of it? I'm sure you would be a very
honest evaluator. Quick or Extreme and a few more from which to choose. I bet if you pm'd
a rep, they would even send a free sample.
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I cant see us paying more for a white ink other than Street Fighter. My only gripe is that it does not drop off the squeegee after printing. Is that enough of an issue to go from paying under $40 a gal to something double or triple the price? Not for us. We are not high production anyway, I am the only one loading and unloading and am happy printing away at 2-300 pieces per hour. I am going to experiment with some sort of additive to help it drop off the squeegee better and I got a winged floodbar from Action coming to see how that works for us.
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Less than $500/5 will buy you the best ink on the planet- Wilflex.
Try a gallon Alan. Unless I missed it, read most of your posts and haven't seen
this PolyOne/Wilflex brand. Have you extensively tested any of it? I'm sure you would be a very
honest evaluator. Quick or Extreme and a few more from which to choose. I bet if you pm'd
a rep, they would even send a free sample.
In the past year I have tried several wilflex whites, the sprint and quick for sure then another I can't quite remember, is there a buffalo white? The sprint was really good for a while, then it separated/got unstable and almost gelled in the bucket. The quick was very good, short bodied but still usable. When I was trying the wilflex I also got in a gallon of Tidy from rutland and that's the main reason I didn't go back to the wiflex.
I've got some Union Poly white coming in this morning and hopefully some wilflex performance tomorrow. I got another confirmation of bad puffing with the rutland super poly over the weekend so that's not good. I was hoping maybe I got the only batch that had too much puff. We've tried going to higher mesh counts but the ink doesn't work all that good with them and the cold snap we've had here the past week has made the ink even more difficult to work with. The super poly through a 180/48 still had too much puff in it with PFP but obviously wasn't as bad as the lower mesh counts.
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i am over puff in white inks. My understanding is it's needed more in poly to offset the dye migration.
I was corrected by an ink rep one time about puff in white ink. He was quick to say it's not puff, but instead it's a blowing agent. I told him I didn't care what it's called, it sucks and if it acts like puff, I will call it puff.
I have not tried Wilflex performance white, their HT Polywhite is thick as heck. Good but just thick. Xenon Mu$tang white is a fine name, does Tiger white or Buffalo white not sound pretty much the same?
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Less than $500/5 will buy you the best ink on the planet- Wilflex.
Try a gallon Alan. Unless I missed it, read most of your posts and haven't seen
this PolyOne/Wilflex brand. Have you extensively tested any of it? I'm sure you would be a very
honest evaluator. Quick or Extreme and a few more from which to choose. I bet if you pm'd
a rep, they would even send a free sample.
In the past year I have tried several wilflex whites, the sprint and quick for sure then another I can't quite remember, is there a buffalo white? The sprint was really good for a while, then it separated/got unstable and almost gelled in the bucket. The quick was very good, short bodied but still usable. When I was trying the wilflex I also got in a gallon of Tidy from rutland and that's the main reason I didn't go back to the wiflex.
I've got some Union Poly white coming in this morning and hopefully some wilflex performance tomorrow. I got another confirmation of bad puffing with the rutland super poly over the weekend so that's not good. I was hoping maybe I got the only batch that had too much puff. We've tried going to higher mesh counts but the ink doesn't work all that good with them and the cold snap we've had here the past week has made the ink even more difficult to work with. The super poly through a 180/48 still had too much puff in it with PFP but obviously wasn't as bad as the lower mesh counts.
Post a pic of the puffed print. I overprinted orange on my white super poly and it didn't blow through and is 100% passable and even looks great. I wouldn't ever try to do super fine detail with the rutland poly but for poly fleece it works great for me. There's no way in hell my customer would be able to tell the difference if I showed them one printed with regular ink vs poly ink. They just aren't that in tune with those kinds of details. Print looks good and is bright = out the door $ in hand.
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Yeah I would like to try Rutland, so hard when using a product for so long.
I have always revered Rutland over the years.
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i am over puff in white inks. My understanding is it's needed more in poly to offset the dye migration.
I was corrected by an ink rep one time about puff in white ink. He was quick to say it's not puff, but instead it's a blowing agent. I told him I didn't care what it's called, it sucks and if it acts like puff, I will call it puff.
I have not tried Wilflex performance white, their HT Polywhite is thick as heck. Good but just thick. Xenon Mu$tang white is a fine name, does Tiger white or Buffalo white not sound pretty much the same?
When I say puff I am really talking about blowing agent, just like you I will call it puff, it's exactly what it is and what it does so that's why I've always called it that. It has always been used in some white ink formulas for different reasons, in poly inks to help with blocking dye migration, I just wish it wasn't in our super poly. It's a recent issue for us so it's not like it's always been in the super poly white. I am looking at 4 prints I did a few months ago with rutland super poly on 100% poly red and the deposit is not too thick, it's absolutely perfect really, no puff/blowing agent. Now I have printed samples of the super poly that are unacceptable to me although I doubt any customers would have a problem with it.
And I thought the Xenon white was called "horse" white not knowing the word m u s t a n g would be edited. I don't think mu$-tang is a bad name, but horse...yes, that would be a terrible name for an ink.
I'll try and get a pic that will show the amount of puff I'm talking about. I'm not sure a pic will do it justice but we can try.
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You see in the first pic the amount of puff and the roughness of the print. This shirt is a nightmare to print on and we've tried numerous mesh counts to get something smooth. They are the 95% poly, 5% spandex ST700 for anyone who's interested and I hate printing on them. A smooth print is not easy to achieve on this shirt so be advised. We had a few test shirts to play with and this was one of them. If you do print on this shirt, get a few extra to use for testing to get the fiber matte down you need.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Tshirt%20Pics/IMG_4684_zpsc01fcd24.jpg) (http://s485.photobucket.com/user/alan802/media/Tshirt%20Pics/IMG_4684_zpsc01fcd24.jpg.html)
This pic doesn't do the puff justice, and it's on a tight weave hoody, the sport tek F244, and not the usual 50/50 hoody we all are used to. You can see the blowing agent is very noticeable, to me at least. Although this print looked great from 2 feet away, up close you see the imperfections. This pic is of a single stroke through a 123/55 and not PFP like I said earlier. We ended up printing it differently with a PFP and not the single stroke like seen here.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr211/alan802/Tshirt%20Pics/IMG_4740_zps2a9a86f8.jpg) (http://s485.photobucket.com/user/alan802/media/Tshirt%20Pics/IMG_4740_zps2a9a86f8.jpg.html)
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That through a 180 single hit PFP? That's a healthy puff lol. There has to be something up with your batch of ink, my NPT poly white didn't puff like that, yours the non-phthalate version? I'd cut it in with a regular white and mix the piss out of it. Not sure I'd give up on the Rutland poly white, think you have an off-bucket.
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Top print was a 150/48 single stroke, flash, single stroke on the white. The bottom was printed through a 123/55 with one stroke.
I have the union ink here to test so after lunch I'll see what it's all about and post my thoughts.
Edited: Gave wrong info about the bottom pic print. We ended up printing it PFP through a 180/48 but I took a pic of the single stroke through the 123.
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One of the reasons I really like the Rutland Super Poly is its super smooth finish.
I'd say something got mixed up in the mix there Alan, which in itself is a ding
against the product.
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I'd say something got mixed up in the mix there Alan, which in itself is a ding
against the product.
A big ding in my opinion. I will never go back to an ink situation where every bucket is dramatically off from the last. This chit is hard enough to do as it is without the ink changing on you constantly.
I'm going to try the NP Street Fighter low bleed white that my rep dropped off just to be nice but, with multiple reports of formula changes, I'm not seriously interested in Rutland plastisol. I'm in JBlue's camp- don't stress ink cost, get the best or what works best for you.
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Personally I haven't seen any inconsistency with Rutland from bucket to bucket, though I'm not timing flashes either.
Might be a shipping thing, which could affect any manufacturer. I know Rutland is southeast, but we're just north
of a major market for their products, so I'd assume it comes via truckload rather than UPS shipments sitting in freezing
warehouses over the weekend.
I use to love Quick, tried the SF, and while price is of little concern, the difference between the two was so minimal it did not justify 2X the cost.
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I just remembered the last pic with the forest green hoody and white ink was one stroke through a 123/55 and down the dryer. We ended up printing it with a 180 but initially we tried a one hit and the puff was too much even with one stroke. I was looking at it and remembered taking several pics of that print and obviously the one hit was lacking coverage and that was the pic I posted above.