Doing The Right Thing

[pwalsh]

Here’s a couple of questions for all of you garment screen-printers.  Suppose that you had a business relationship with a company that had developed a very successful line of pre-print design tee shirts that they sold to the market through a series of wholesalers. Now suppose that this particular pre-print line forms the core of the company’s success as a manufacturer in our industry until….

Along comes another company that produces an almost exact copy of the first companies original design, and then uses a low price strategy to entice the wholesalers to switch suppliers by offering then “seemingly-identical” designs at prices that are 30% - 50% lower than the company who produced the garment with the original design. 

The knock-off companies policy is that this approach would allow the wholesalers to make additional profit, and/or allow the people actually buying the shirts to get them at a cheaper price than they could from the company that produced the original designs.

( A ) Would you think that this was OK because the wholesaler was making more profit and/or the end-user was getting a less expensive product?  Yes / No

( B ) Would you think that legal action should be taken against the company that printed the knock-off shirts and the wholesaler that brought them to market?  Yes / No

( C ) Would your answers be the same if the action of introducing a knock-off of an original design was being perpetrated by a screen-printing equipment manufacturer and their sales and service division Yes / No

[mk162]

hey, if I can get is cheaper...great!!

Just kidding.  The problem I have with knock-offs is quality & service.  Even reverse engineered products are usually not as good as the original.  Also, the cheaper products usually come with a worse warranty, and a much smaller service department.  Downtime is a common thing no matter what brand equipment you use.  But length of downtime is the difference.

You get what you pay for.

[GraphicDisorder]

Awesome topic, I bet some people are blowing a gasket right now over it. 

[Frog]

Awesome topic, I bet some people are blowing a gasket right now over it.

I know one guy who is probably blowing the importer and service guy and giddy with the thrill of a ruckus over here that will be copied and posted on the two other forums that profit from these sales and promotions.

[GraphicDisorder]

[jmd]

I don't think it is a simple yes or no answer with the information you gave. Is the original copywrite, trademark or patented? Whats is morally right to some might not be to others but what is legal and not applies to all.

[squeegee]

Sweet Jesus!  Here we go again!

[jesterapparel]

Here’s a couple of questions for all of you garment screen-printers.  Suppose that you had a business relationship with a company that had developed a very successful line of pre-print design tee shirts that they sold to the market through a series of wholesalers. Now suppose that this particular pre-print line forms the core of the company’s success as a manufacturer in our industry until….

Along comes another company that produces an almost exact copy of the first companies original design, and then uses a low price strategy to entice the wholesalers to switch suppliers by offering then “seemingly-identical” designs at prices that are 30% - 50% lower than the company who produced the garment with the original design. 

The knock-off companies policy is that this approach would allow the wholesalers to make additional profit, and/or allow the people actually buying the shirts to get them at a cheaper price than they could from the company that produced the original designs.

( A ) Would you think that this was OK because the wholesaler was making more profit and/or the end-user was getting a less expensive product?  Yes / No

( B ) Would you think that legal action should be taken against the company that printed the knock-off shirts and the wholesaler that brought them to market?  Yes / No

( C ) Would your answers be the same if the action of introducing a knock-off of an original design was being perpetrated by a screen-printing equipment manufacturer and their sales and service division Yes / No

You have posts after posts, hell you have pictures of them building the blue dragon right next to a f'ing M&R.  Not only do you sue him once he sells one, you throw them all in Prison. You have enough proof from the dumb ass to have them serve time.  There are many cases out there were people knowingly sold ripp offs and went to prison.  You need to contact the authorities as soon as he sells one.  I'm sure rich print of all the post and pictures of them coping your machine.  You won't be able to touch the folks in China though.

[Shawn (EIP)]

Could this have anything to do with a Mustang?

[prozyan]

Could this have anything to do with a Mustang?

No.

[Command-Z]

A - NO
B - YES
C - YES

And yes, there are gaskets being blown.

When China was given "most favored nation status" and the GATT/WTO free-trade sold out the US workforce, didn't they include patent protections anywhere in the trade deals?

[alan802]

I think a lot more details would have to be given in this scenario for me to really take a hard stance, but my stance right now would be:
A) Wholesalers making more profit and end users getting a less expensive product isn't a bad thing...but
B) Depends on the "but" above
C) Same

Like I said, I think there are more details needed (how close these 2 products are, is there an obvious effort to make the knock-off better?) but I think the most important thing for me to decide on whether it was right or wrong is MOTIVE of the knock-off company.

[inkbrigade]

hmm.. I don't exactly have an answer to peters question but here is what I think. I like M&R, rich and the boys take good care of us and we have a shop full of M&R stuff. With that said, let's look at this logically without feelings.

The chinese press shouldn't be able to have anything on it that M&R has patents on. Patents DO run out though look at Stretch Devices. The idea of the roller frame is no longer just theirs. The patent ran out, now others are able to make roller type frames.

Don has since made improvements on his original designs and those are patented. But if you want, you can buy a sefar roller frame.

Dons frames are made in the USA. The Sefars are made in China.. Guess what. The sefar frames suck.

Same deal with the Fender Stratocaster. The patent ended and now a hundred different companies make guitars that look like Strats. Has this hurt fenders business.. sure. But people still want to buy $1000.00 fender strats and will pass over the $200 pieces of crap all day long.

So can M&R do anything about the Chinese control box looking the same as the Sportsman.. probably not... Unless they have a TM or a patent on it.

Think about this.. any ass can put ink on a t-shirt and under cut your prices. So why should people come to you as a print shop? Hopefully because of service and print quality.

Does it suck when you lose some sales because of this. You bet! Can i do anything about it. Nope. Just keep my eyes on the prize and keep up our quality and service.

As long as the Chinese don't infringe on any patents i don't know M&R can do anything other than what they have been doing. Quality, reliable machines with great service. M&R will be just fine.

I don't think Peter is actually asking us if Nazdar should carry the Chinese stuff or not. That would be nuts.

Personally I don't think Rich and M&R should sweat the Chinese stuff.

-Jamie

[GraphicDisorder]

hmm.. I don't exactly have an answer to peters question but here is what I think. I like M&R, rich and the boys take good care of us and we have a shop full of M&R stuff. With that said, let's look at this logically without feelings.

The chinese press shouldn't be able to have anything on it that M&R has patents on. Patents DO run out though look at Stretch Devices. The idea of the roller frame is no longer just theirs. The patent ran out, now others are able to make roller type frames.

Don has since made improvements on his original designs and those are patented. But if you want, you can buy a sefar roller frame.

Dons frames are made in the USA. The Sefars are made in China.. Guess what. The sefar frames suck.

Same deal with the Fender Stratocaster. The patent ended and now a hundred different companies make guitars that look like Strats. Has this hurt fenders business.. sure. But people still want to buy $1000.00 fender strats and will pass over the $200 pieces of crap all day long.

So can M&R do anything about the Chinese control box looking the same as the Sportsman.. probably not... Unless they have a TM or a patent on it.

Think about this.. any ink bucket can put ink on a t-shirt and under cut your prices. So why should people come to you as a print shop? Hopefully because of service and print quality.

Does it suck when you lose some sales because of this. You bet! Can i do anything about it. Nope. Just keep my eyes on the prize and keep up our quality and service.

As long as the Chinese don't infringe on any patents i don't know M&R can do anything other than what they have been doing. Quality, reliable machines with great service. M&R will be just fine.

I don't think Peter is actually asking us if Nazdar should carry the Chinese stuff or not. That would be nuts.

Personally I don't think Rich and M&R should sweat the Chinese stuff.

-Jamie

I agree.

Besides the only reason to worry about a China press is if the pest wasn't behind it at all.  The fact it is the pest behind it actually brings no real reason to worry about it as far as market share goes or anything like that.  NOTHING he has done has taken any HUGE bite out of M&R or anyone else for that matter.

M&R Possibly suing someone who IS breaking the law with patents or otherwise, I see no issue with. 

Besides he put some rough pricing on DS when he first started talking about it, it wasn't that great anyway. 

Is everything that's made in China crap?  Nah not everything.  But I know this much, EVERYTHING that is made over there is suspect until proven.  I wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole even if it was HALF PRICE of a M&R.

[tpitman]

The Sefar roller frames mentioned are a prime example. I've got 6. One bolt or the socket it screws into has stripped. Other sockets were too shallow, either from insufficient tapping or from flash from the casting clogging them up. Had to put washers under the bolts, which then can interfere with the adjacent bolt.
Savings? The price of the Sefar frames are only a couple of bucks cheaper than a Newman. I've got some 40 Newmans and I've never had a failure from any of them, either old blue ones or the dozen new ones I've bought.
Suspect until proven is some sage advice, GD.