Wow, Screen Tape Costs!!!

[bimmridder]

Ummmm, what about tape?

[Socalfmf]

Alan

it falls under our insurance as day labor...that is anything under 600 bucks a year.  it works well.

and thanks Brandt. 

Sam

[GraphicDisorder]

Seriously where did I ever say our profits are down or we cannot afford a DTS? an ROI calculation on a CTS is not hard at all anyone with more than a Pea sized brain can get a decent rough estimate from it.

This is what I said:
How can DTS have such a poor ROI but Sam can easily afford it who apparently is "half" your shops size?  It's a fair question.... how can he afford it if the ROI is that bad?  Some of you act as if it would put you out of business its such a poor move.   

[inkman996]

Single day job shadowing is more common than you might think Alan. I did it when i was approached by Mills Pride to work for them. They paid my transportation lodging and time for one day it was nice.

I know hospitals also do this a lot, its how they weed out the non medical staff that need to work in areas with lots of trauma and blood.

[Socalfmf]

and I will add this...remember I USED to have a DTG.  it was a good product, but it didn't work for us.  I lost some one it, but it was a calculated risk and move.  I will be the first to say it didn't work.  ok didn't work for US! 

so, I am not above thinking that we had it worked out however it didn't work out. 

sam

[ebscreen]

So the DTS started it's life as a DTG is what you are saying?

[tonypep]

Single day job shadowing is more common than you might think Alan. I did it when i was approached by Mills Pride to work for them. They paid my transportation lodging and time for one day it was nice.

I know hospitals also do this a lot, its how they weed out the non medical staff that need to work in areas with lots of trauma and blood.

Spent a week on St Thomas on their dime twice before I took that bait.

[Socalfmf]

EB  no  the DTG I thought we be a great addition but it wasn't due to our current business plan...however we all know that is a living breathing document and we shifted as a company and that machine became unuseful. 

that is to show I can accept when things don't go the way I thought they would.

sam

[Inkworks]

I think it all comes down to how good your FPU, film filing and other systems are. If you have a good FPU and other systems, you probably won't see much improvement from getting a DTS. I certainly haven't seen a solid explanation of where all the ROI money is going to come from posted anywhere yet.

Printing film is "hands-off" time, and on repeat jobs you only print film once. Pulling film from a good filing system has to be faster than printing DTS everytime. Taping up screens on a good system like Alan's is faster than any DTS screens I've seen.

A good FPU system has plenty good enough registration.
A good FPU has only 2 tiny marks that need to be taped up or blocked out
A clean shop doesn't have significant pinhole issues.

All of the things that can make a DTS an expensive and low-profit venture for most of us small to medium shops are systems, or can be had for a tiny fraction of what a DTS costs.

If you are having significant set-up times, you don't have a good FPU system or aren't using it correctly.
If you are having pinhole problems, you don't have a clean shop or have employees following the systems
If it takes you a long time to find old films or if they are in poor condition you have a bad film filing system or have employees not following good systems.

A few will tell (belittle) us over and over how great a DTS is, and how good the ROI is for a medium sized shop, but never offer any actual facts. There are plenty of reasonable people here who would love to hear the reasoning and would accept supported facts, there just haven't been many presented.

Some are happy with their DTS. Great, and you certainly don't have to explain yourselves here, but if you do, be prepared to back it up is all I guess. My 60" automatic squeegee sharpener is an undefendable purchase I recently made, I didn't even really have room for it yet, but yet there it sits.  ROI, never probably. Happiness factor is through the roof though. I justify it to myself because I've had several other equipment purchases which complete ROI was achieved in the first production run on them.

[Socalfmf]

I offered plenty.

our Exposure time went down 69%
our rise out time went down 20%

we have zero pin holes due to no glass.

our set up time increase so we can do about 3-5 jobs more per week.  even thought I think it is higher now.

I will have to go back and look but I know I posted most of them and then started getting more in depth with tape and whatnot.

with that labor was a huge savings and by doing more jobs it is making us more money vs. saving money!

sam

[inkman996]

I think it all comes down to how good your FPU, film filing and other systems are. If you have a good FPU and other systems, you probably won't see much improvement from getting a DTS. I certainly haven't seen a solid explanation of where all the ROI money is going to come from posted anywhere yet.

Printing film is "hands-off" time, and on repeat jobs you only print film once. Pulling film from a good filing system has to be faster than printing DTS everytime. Taping up screens on a good system like Alan's is faster than any DTS screens I've seen.

A good FPU system has plenty good enough registration.
A good FPU has only 2 tiny marks that need to be taped up or blocked out
A clean shop doesn't have significant pinhole issues.

All of the things that can make a DTS an expensive and low-profit venture for most of us small to medium shops are systems, or can be had for a tiny fraction of what a DTS costs.

If you are having significant set-up times, you don't have a good FPU system or aren't using it correctly.
If you are having pinhole problems, you don't have a clean shop or have employees following the systems
If it takes you a long time to find old films or if they are in poor condition you have a bad film filing system or have employees not following good systems.

A few will tell (belittle) us over and over how great a DTS is, and how good the ROI is for a medium sized shop, but never offer any actual facts. There are plenty of reasonable people here who would love to hear the reasoning and would accept supported facts, there just haven't been many presented.

Some are happy with their DTS. Great, and you certainly don't have to explain yourselves here, but if you do, be prepared to back it up is all I guess. My 60" automatic squeegee sharpener is an undefendable purchase I recently made, I didn't even really have room for it yet, but yet there it sits.  ROI, never probably. Happiness factor is through the roof though. I justify it to myself because I've had several other equipment purchases which complete ROI was achieved in the first production run on them.

Damn you summed it all up perfectly! And you nailed one important fact on the head. Some people will buy certain equipment that have no ROI in any reasonable amount of time but they do so for quality of working conditions. Brandt for example would buy a CTS not because he cannot keep up on screens but because the quality and ease of use you can get out of it. I would never begrudge anyone for doing something like that its awesome actually.

[Inkworks]

I can buy the exposure time going down because you're not exposing through glass and film, but as mentioned, for most small-medium sized shops that's not a bottleneck unless they are using crappy light sources, and it's hands-off time. I posted about how a $500 Nuarc flip-top can be modified to have exposure time to rival, or beat the new LED units, nobody seemed to care. My 3K Nuarc Fliptop smokes my 8K Olec and wall frame, but it doesn't matter to us as the worker can be doing countless other things in the 60-120 seconds an exposure takes. I still might by a used 6K fliptop that will accommodate a 23 - 31" screen as I see them go for under $1000 often, and sell the Olec 8K and wall frame for a profit.

I'm still not sure how a press set-up is faster than a when using good FPU system, care to eloborate? Did you have a good FPU system before the DTS?

I guess I just find it too easy to circumvent an expensive piece of equipment with some cheaper things and good systems.

I for one will make a point of stopping in if I get down that way, beers and lunch are on me.

Just times the Nuarc Flip-top, 45 seconds exposure including pulling vacuum on a 156 non-S mesh with Autotype 8000 with Diazo. Murukami Autosol HV with a half-load of Diazo would cut 15-20 seconds off of that.

[inkman996]

I can buy the exposure time going down because you're not exposing through glass and film, but as mentioned, for most small-medium sized shops that's not a bottleneck unless they are using crappy light sources, and it's hands-off time. I posted about how a $500 Nuarc flip-top can be modified to have exposure time to rival, or beat the new LED units, nobody seemed to care. My 3K Nuarc Fliptop smokes my 8K Olec and wall frame, but it doesn't matter to us as the worker can be doing countless other things in the 60-120 seconds an exposure takes. I still might by a used 6K fliptop that will accommodate a 23 - 31" screen as I see them go for under $1000 often, and sell the Olec 8K and wall frame for a profit.

I'm still not sure how a press set-up is faster than a when using good FPU system, care to eloborate? Did you have a good FPU system before the DTS?

I guess I just find it too easy to circumvent an expensive piece of equipment with some cheaper things and good systems.

I for one will make a point of stopping in if I get down that way, beers and lunch are on me.

Just times the Nuarc Flip-top, 45 seconds exposure including pulling vacuum on a 156 non-S mesh with Autotype 8000 with Diazo. Murukami Autosol HV with a half-load of Diazo would cut 15-20 seconds off of that.

My guy organizes film while screens are being exposed. He shoots two then develops them. So he has no time wasted standing around doing nothing. If he has no films to organize he cleans carrier sheets. When we have a large screen day I do all the exposing while he does all the developing, works smoothly and is certainly not a bottle neck area for us. Our bottle neck from what i can judge is during change overs. They seem to just take to long unless I am back there managing the guys directly. But if I am not back there changeovers take so damn long it drives me nuts and I have to figure out how to get these guys to work more proficiently ion that area.

[kingscreen]

To be honest, I'm only lurking and skimming this thread but am I the only person wondering why everyone seems so concerned about how other people are running their business? It seems to me that every shop is different and what's more worth the investment, equipment wise, will vary greatly from shop to shop. Some people may have systems down in their screen department that a CTS wouldn't be more beneficial than a second or faster press. For some shops, maybe additional staff would be more valuable than equipment. Am I missing something here? Didn't this all start out just being about screen tape being pricey?

Scott

[Inkworks]

To be honest, I'm only lurking and skimming this thread but am I the only person wondering why everyone seems so concerned about how other people are running their business? It seems to me that every shop is different and what's more worth the investment, equipment wise, will vary greatly from shop to shop. Some people may have systems down in their screen department that a CTS wouldn't be more beneficial than a second or faster press. For some shops, maybe additional staff would be more valuable than equipment. Am I missing something here? Didn't this all start out just being about screen tape being pricey?

Scott

Simple. I don't give a hoot, and I'm glad people like their various machines and make money. Like I said about my squeegee sharpener. It's when ROI is defended that some of us question it when it doesn't make sense to us. that's all.

Nobody has to defend any purchase, but when you try to, be prepared if the math looks like it adds up differently to us.