Polyone and Wilflex has lost their mind!

[Frog]

Of course, as business folks we have to understand "thinning the herd" as a means to better bottom line.
On the other hand, as screen printers, a major recurring frustration is the discontinuation of a product which has been a vital component of a long running ongoing job.

It is great though that you can give the formulas in your mixing systems, to match these discontinued (and I assume standard) colors.

Have you guys gotten around to stocking small containers of your pigments (or RFU, for that matter)
I know for me, often a quart could last for years for some colors.

[dirkdiggler]

Hey Dirk. Zoo city is spot on. This is a non-standard color hence the price.

When Wilflex converted from Genesis to Epic they discontinued a number of colors. They had like 80 and now have 49 plus the specialties - still more than the other major brands. I think Rutland has 20?  Not sure.

The logic is simple really. Unless you use a mixing system, how many standard colors would you offer your customers?  10?  20?  100?  300?  It is a matter of offering enough to satisfy most while keeping your working capital as low as you can. Always a balance.

This should not be on our website at SourceOne since it is a non-standard. Left over I guess. We have some cleaning up to do!

That color has not been discontinued to my knowledge!  It is an epic color.  May be coming down the line, but not currently I don't think.  Wouldn't be a big deal, but I have 4 customers that use it in their logo, so I need it.  I understand they don't want to have a lot of inventory, so they force the end user to mix it themselves.  Or go shopping for another brand.  Think I will be getting the IC vegas gold.  I already have been switching some colors over to IC with ZERO problems and WAY cheaper.  Not smart Wilflex, not smart!

[Rob Coleman]

Dirk- just checked my lit.  There is no Epic Vegas Gold on the color card thus it is considered a CUSTOM non-standard now.  There IS the new Epic Top Score Vegas Gold as a Standard - $95 per gallon.

And yes, there is a reason that SourceOne starting inventorying the IC 7600 colors in gals and quarts.  The corresponding Wilflex colors are significantly more expensive, and we needed an alternative for our customers like you!  I am glad that we can continue to support your business.

I van state that when it comes to color systems, Wilfex is top notch. Color accuracy, consistency, wet on wet printing can't be beat.  The standard colors are top notch as well, but unfortunately have been priced over market in many cases. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

[dirkdiggler]

Thanks Rob, We will figure out something.  Its not gonna beat me.  If it can be made for $40, ANYONE with the mixing system should be making it and selling it for $80, or any color for that matter.  Seems simple.

[JBLUE]

It cant be said enough. Get a mixing system! You are throwing money down the drain on pre-made colors. Yes it cost a lot up front but if you are a busy shop it pays for itself in no time at all.

[Rockers]

That`s my thought too and that`s why we have ordered our Wilflex Epic PC system now. Just wondering how long the quarter gallon pcs will last before we`ll have to switch to gallon size pigments.

[Rob Coleman]

Rockers - this may help you a bit.  If you are using the actual PC system, Epic Mixing base will account for ~80% of your usage (with Equalizers - base is ~70%).  Of the pigment load, white and yellow will by far be used the most - perhaps 40-60% of the total - white being 25-40% by itself.  After that it really depends upon your color palette, but Marine Blue, Blue, perhaps Magenta.

So for example, say you mix 10 gals of color per month.  your usage of each MAY be like:

Base - 8 gals
Extra White PC - 0.8 gals
Bright Yellow - 0.3 gals
Blue - 0.04 gals
Marine - 0.04 gals
Magenta - 0.03 gals
Remaining 10 pc's combined - 0.8 gals.

[Zelko-4-EVA]

heres our ink usage - we use the Epic PC with the standard GNS base.  in 2012 we ordered 360 gallons of base before a price increase, it took us about a year to finish it off. you will notice that the amount of base is way off in 2013...

when a bucket is opened, another is ordered.  i keep some at a one gallon minimum unopened and some at 2 or more unopened. 

i use MS Excel to average how much ink was used within a timeframe and when i do inventory i can input into the spreadsheet how much is left and can find out a rough idea how many days of ink i have left.  on some supplies i add a few days for shipping

i have nearly all the supplies in production inventoried this way - therefore we dont run out of anything. 

[Rob Coleman]

Zelko:  Thanks for posting this.  Your usage absolutely dovetails with my breakdown above.  In 2013, White was just under 30% of your total pigment usage, while yellow was 15% -- combined for over 40%.  Your next two most used were blue and marine blue.  Interesting that you used a good bit of Electron Yellow as well.

Put your pricing in your sheet and then you can calculate your exact costing on your usage!

Good stuff!  Thanks again!

[Gilligan]

What is the cost of getting setup on one of these systems... on the smallest level practical (for space and usage reasons... we are SMALL time).

[Zelko-4-EVA]

Zelko:  Thanks for posting this.  Your usage absolutely dovetails with my breakdown above.  In 2013, White was just under 30% of your total pigment usage, while yellow was 15% -- combined for over 40%.  Your next two most used were blue and marine blue.  Interesting that you used a good bit of Electron Yellow as well.

Put your pricing in your sheet and then you can calculate your exact costing on your usage!

Good stuff!  Thanks again!

Electron Yellow?  we really didnt use that much.  my last purchase of a gallon was in December 2012. 


i do have pricing - but per Nazdar quotes stating that cant share my pricing so i cropped it out of the picture i uploaded.  that being said - we have saved a good deal of money by switching to Nazdar as a vendor and David Heald as an inside sales rep.

[dirkdiggler]

We are looking at a mixing system.  Probably gonna be equalizer.

[ebscreen]

I thought we were oddballs going through so much Bright Yellow. Glad to see we're not alone.

[StuJohnston]

What is the cost of getting setup on one of these systems... on the smallest level practical (for space and usage reasons... we are SMALL time).

They offer kits here http://www.sourceoneonline.com/item.asp?productID=169 it's at the top of the drop down list where you would choose the colors. From my research, it looks like the smaller kit is pints of pigments and a gallon of base. I am thinking of getting the smaller kit in a moment since I found out a little late that I needed to match a PMS color with top score or equivalent ink and this seems like the best deal for that purpose.

The one issue is, once you are done with a pig from the kit, then you have to buy a gallon to replace it. In the long run, this isn't a big deal, but the price of a gallon of a color of a pigment can seem expensive if  you are used to seeing only RFU gallon pricing. After using pigs for waterbased printing, oh my goodness, it is so much sweeter than trying to mix straight plastisol.

I suppose there is another issue if you are tight on space, it can be a bit much after a while of using the system unless you can mix exactly the amount of ink you need, you'll probably be left with extras. Those extras will start to take up a bit of space if you aren't careful. Though, if wilflex's mixing software is like the colorstar software, you should be able to plug in previously mixed inks and it can tell you what to add to get to another color. Come to think of it, it's really up to you though. You can either mix custom inks to take advantage of all of the systems capabilities, or just mix standard colors and save over buying RFU. It really depends on what you offer your customers.

I suppose I will ask here since it's a hot topic, what is the viscosity of the pc express pigments? Are they like the CCI WB Pigments? Can they be put into squeeze bottles?

[Rob Coleman]

Zelko:  my bad on the electron yellow - misread the sheet.  It was bright orange that followed the marine and blue in order quantity.

EB:  yellow is used a ton - in most all mixing systems, so you are definitely not alone!

Gilligan:  How much finished color do you think you would mix a month on average?  Total.  Not printing whites and such, but actual mixed color.  Also, do you need a scale?  Are you comfortable with working with pigments or prefer an RFU mixing system? 

You have initial start-up cost and then monthly costs.  For a small shop, the initial cost will probably be higher, but the savings will be in reduced ink inventory and cost each month.  There are a few different Wilflex start-up packages available.

You can pm me if you want and I can spitball something for you.

Rob