S (thin thread) mesh

[tonypep]

Ok..so I read this thread and you all talk about getting new mesh and to get our heads out of our asses...but when I tell you get a DTS I get all kinds of "why you cannot" 

hahahah  booomm right back at you!

Thats funny Sam I just finished a meeting with our Saati rep (who makes these) and they whole heartedly agreed that they are not for us. (uh oh now Pierre will have to split this thread again!)
And because we're almost all WB on old presses S mesh and rollers won't cut it (or don't deliver a ROI)either. Everyones different. For us the dolars for DTS would be best spent towards a new press.
Not a dig on anyone here so please no rants.

[ZooCity]

Tony, just an FYI, the S/thin thread mesh absolutely excels at WB printing.  It made shifting to WB really easy for me to implement.  The mesh will hold up on rollers and old presses.  I was concerned about this too at first but we have not seen breakage from squeegee pressure running 90 through 225 S mesh on the Gauntlet S and, as you know, there is a ton of constant blade pressure depressing the mesh when running WB on that press.   Your biggest implementation issue might be in handling- i.e., no laying blades and floods on the mesh, no tossing screens around, etc.  Get a few yards of 150/48 and stretch it up on your statics, it's worth a looky loo.  It also lets you use bare minimum pressure when printing plasti on the older M&R presses, mitigating the extreme platen deflection and flex of the print head. 

Alan, you're going to dig that 90/71, the open area is spooky.  PFP plastisol on that count generates a mini-HD look.  We primarily uses ours for metallics and pearlescents, both plasti and WB. 

[tonypep]

Have some samp yds coming but rep said probably not worth it for us. Also a Photo P for discharge that I have always had issue with but it is new so why not try it. Makes sense that the S mesh mesh would help those who are new to WB though.

[ZooCity]

You guys stretch/glue in house right?  Just take yer time with the S thread, follow murakami's recommendations and don't go too high.  I think stretching + shop handling are the deal killers for many with thin threads but it's easy to overcome both of these.

Seriously, just play around with a properly stretched 150/48.  If we had to, we could print 90% of all our jobs with that one mesh, coated in various ways.  The versatility of each count is another advantage.  I have our entire mesh selection down to:
90 - 110 - 135 - 150 - 180 -225 -330  with the 90, 110 and 135 only used for speciality inks or where we need mega ink transfer, it's mostly all 150, 180 and 225.   

[JBLUE]

Have some samp yds coming but rep said probably not worth it for us. Also a Photo P for discharge that I have always had issue with but it is new so why not try it. Makes sense that the S mesh mesh would help those who are new to WB though.

For what it is worth I run all our WB on S mesh on an older than dirt Challenger. Works better for because of having to use less pressure on the print stroke.

[tonypep]

Interesting

[Doug S]

Just stretched some shurlocs 10 with 150/48 6 with 180/48 and 3 with 80/55.  I don't imagine I'll use 80/55 much but for those big block letters with white ink should be pretty much a 1 hitter.  By the way this might be for another thread, but I really like the shurloc 125 frames.  They hold their shape, don't warp, they are lighter/thinner and still heavy enough that they sink in the dip tank without having to use something to hold them down.

[alan802]

I don't think Sam was "trying" to get into an argument with me but rather having a friendly jab?  Perhaps I read into it wrong and didn't take his comments as an invitation to get into the CTS argument but I could be wrong.  This thread is more about thin thread and I know I get caught up in the importance of mesh but it cannot be argued that it's not the most important "tool" that we use.  Even though CTS is the next best thing, it pales in comparison and will never be as important to the process as the super cheap, underappreciated, often abused mesh. 

I know where we fall in the CTS versus film discussion and our shop is a lot closer to Tony's in that we are a lot more efficient with film than the average shop and we have a regi system that is very fast and accurate.  I know we will see major improvements with CTS in exposure time and we will eliminate film and inkjet ink costs, and I do believe we will see faster press setups but it will not be to the degree that straight triloc users have seen and surely not close to non regi system shops when they made the move to CTS.  I know there are hidden savings here and there and those will be nice to see but they will not have the impact that the other improvements that I mentioned will have or they'd be all over the marketing sheets and websites by now and no longer "hidden".   

Here is what I know for sure:  A "first time" multi-colored job will be done faster at our shop from start to finish with a CTS machine and we will see consumable savings of about 4-5K a year.  Repeat jobs will likely be done in about the same time overall with a slight edge to the CTS but likely single digit % faster.  The fact that is overlooked is our regi system works almost as good as the MHM and is it's closest equivalent that I have to explain how our system works.  The MHM is faster since you don't have to load a pallet jig on and off but as far as the job lining up on press that's what we have.  Now maybe those MHM guys will understand our thoughts on CTS.  I have a feeling that although there are tons of positive reviews on the regular triloc, it isn't as accurate as it could be or should be.  I know that it will never be agreed with but I think the carrier sheet system is flawed and the master frame on the exposure unit paired with the carrier sheets causes issues that can't be fixed in many cases.  The film shifts and that's all there is to it.  I know there are things that can be done to help out the film shift on the exposure, but I do believe that there are some systems that have flaws that will never go away.  Our film is taped directly to the emulsion and our vacuum blanket comes down tight and the film doesn't move at all.  I can say all this because I used the triloc as it was supposed to be used for about a week and we had ok results but it's nothing compared to what we see now.  I had a guy at the workshop this weekend that has a diamondback and the triloc and he doesn't use it because it doesn't work.  His setup has been inspected and is installed correctly but the fact is that he can't use it and chooses to set up jobs manually.  He is going to convert his triloc to the modified FPU that we use.  I've showed many people how ours works and I've done setups for people wanting to see how accurate it is and everyone is amazed, especially those who have or used a triloc.

[Socalfmf]

Alan

I would venture to bet your "buddy" did not go to M&R to get training on his machine or tools for his machine correct?  I bet if he did he would be using tri-loc on every job making more and more money per job.

but then again that is just me and my shop...

[screenprintguy]

Ok shift to another aspect. S mesh, or this"thin" mesh, if the diameter of the actual thread is way less than standard mesh, and is it a weave difference too? Would this also lower exposure times? If so, S-mesh, being thinner, allowing light to penetrate faster and better, mixed with less emulsion on the mesh, should lower exposure times, now marry that with a CTS and you have some more efficiency right? We are a small shop and most though I was nuts to get a CTS, man, I would NEVER, go back to the old way of doing things. I have to say, you would never understand it until you had one in your shop. It's too bad there weren't demo models out there that manu's could lease on a say 1-3 month basis to really show a shop how much of and amazing addition to their process a CTS will be. At any rate, I'd love to try some of this stuff. What is the recommended brand to get, I'd support Sonny and order some through him with Xenon but if they don't have it yet, I'd like to get enough for a half dozen or so frames and give a try, especially under basing and W/B prints. Is the thin mesh higher cost than standard? Just curious on more intimate details, I have asked certain suppliers and most don't even know what the hell it is and just push what ever they have on the rack.

[Gilligan]

*No longer needed*

[alan802]

Alan

I would venture to bet your "buddy" did not go to M&R to get training on his machine or tools for his machine correct?  I bet if he did he would be using tri-loc on every job making more and more money per job.

but then again that is just me and my shop...

You are right, my "buddy" didn't go to M&R and get training, they went to his shop, set up his press and triloc and I'll let you guess why that tech is no longer with them.  Let me say this, I've spent some time with this "buddy" of mine and I can tell you that the reason his triloc doesn't work isn't because he didn't go to M&R, or because he's not a business guru, or because he's not intelligent enough to use the registration system, it's because it is not perfect.

Did everyone here with a triloc system go to M&R so they could use it properly?  I won't put you in a bad spot and ask you if it works as great as some might have you believe.  And don't let my comments have you believe I don't think it works at all, that's not true, it CAN work great a lot of the time.

Sammy, I have no doubt in my mind that your triloc worked well, but the fact that you think you have to go to M&R and get training on how to use it properly is ridiculous. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings about it I'm just being honest and maybe I'm saying things that others know but might not want to say publicly.  Remember I said that I used the system, and as much as I love M&R and what they do, the system is not as good as it could be.  There are as many members on this forum that have a triloc and theirs works perfectly as there are members that have one that performs great about half of the time.  I know this because I've used it and I have spoken to shops who ask me why theirs doesn't work.  Have I mentioned that I've used the triloc yet?   

I wonder if the triloc worked so well, why is it when triloc-user shops go CTS they have these enormous boosts in setup times and therefore such fast ROI?  If the triloc worked as well as you claim shouldn't it virtually be the same as a job setup via CTS?  What am I missing?  Don't answer that last question, I already know the answer. 

[Frog]

Creative Screen Technologies will stretch provided mesh for you.
Interesting frame design as well, I had a few and no qualms.

Their site presently has no pictures.
Are these the one piece bent aluminums with round corners?
Tubelite (also in San Leandro back then) sold'em.

Their re-stretch prices are crazy high.

[Nick Bane]

ahhh, what a read....

[Socalfmf]

alan

why do I go to M&R when I buy something...because I know that I don't know everything.  I go because if I can learn one thing to make me more money it is worth it.  as for the people who it doesn't work for well thee are many many reason it might not work.  what screens are they using?  who is lining up their films, who is printing the films, how are the films being printed?  I could go on and on...but remember tri-loc is a system.  Going DTS takes out some of the human element for lining up carrier sheets...but yes it works great and has since day one for us!


also the techs that set up presses are just that, they set them up and make sure they work...but you do not learn from the tech you learn from the team at M&R about your press, dryer, dts or whatever it is you buy.

But then again I worry about everything in our shop not just certain areas so I think I might just look at it as an investment vs. buying or doing something.