Drag and Drop Browser Seps

[inkman996]

Obviously we can't have a civil conversation with this dude. No one has been rude in any way to him but his last post is laced with rudeness and border line insults. How do you expect to get constructive criticism from anyone nowhere if you act like a little child every time someone questions your methods and claims? You are resorting to telling everyone they know nothing about anything, even the guy that had a career in programming and another that is one of the most respected printers in this country.

You said something about OEM even mattering yet claimed to not even know what it is, sadly this just proves what many have been saying about your lack of actual printing experience. OEM emulsion over mesh happens to be a huge factor in screen/print quality. But what do I know.

To question Danny about his image looking good or bad at fiver  colors is ridiculous, you are not a printer self admitted so why do you earn the right in being correct? Danny is the kind of industry veteran that can look at a design and through vast amounts of experience tell you NO! It cannot be printed five colors and look good. I can look at that pic and tell you the same thing, that's how far off you are from understanding real world textile printing.

Maybe you are under the impression that what can be done in paper can be done with textile, nope sorry.

Still will admit your project is awesome and would have a niche, but damn man listen to what people are telling you it's some serious experience you can tap in to here.

BTW yes I do tell artists my printing specs when having a job done, yes I tell them important things like mesh counts to be used, half tone capability and any other info they wish to know and use.

Something tells me you came here already predisposed for a fight even tho there is no fight. A certain little bird must have been chirping in your ear.

[DDSol]

NO

If you'd have paid attention, or tried it, you'd have known: It's is a test. It's called "Test 1".

It doesn't spit out seps, films or whatever you like to call it.

So no. When it's done, I'll print shirts that will ** removed this because it's very upsetting **. Sorry about that.

So, don't say it doesn't work, because I already told you it doesn't work. It's not done. Don't say it won't work, because you damn well don't know.

And @JBLUE, 5 colors is enough, if only because I said so. You didn't tell me why it would be insufficient. So then you didn't say anything. And IF it looks good on screen with 5 colors, I can get it to look good on a shirt as well. It's a matter of the right 2 dimensional transfer curve. (Not 12 dimensions)

@inkman:

OEM is original equipment manufacturer. WTF does that mean? Nothing. Manufacturer of what? Emulsion? IF I ask you to sep somthing for me, will you ask about my emulsion manufacturer?

And nobody "questions" methods or claims. They say it will not work. And they're wrong. I'll make it work. They haven't even bothered to look at it.

And you don;'t know if 5 colors is good enough if you've never tried it with MY SEPS. Sorry guys. No one has ever printed anything with my seps, so you can't know if it's good or not. So don't say it's bad. You don't know. Don't say 5 colors is impossible, you DON'T know, you havn't tried my seps yet, just yours.

[inkman996]

Biting my tongue going to stay nice.

First my ipad is auto correcting EOM to OEM.

EOM is emulsion,over mesh. No I will not explain this to you since you think we are all to dumb and you are some kind of genius.

Yes EOM is important very very important.

And no your sep nor anyone's,on this earth manual or canned will ever make that print work as a five color NO! Unless unless you have discovered or reinvented something after the sep program then no the seps does not make that pic five color and look good. You really do not get it because you do not have a clue as to what we deal with and realistic limitations to what we do.

For instance a constant struggle for us is achieving opacity but also holding half tones in the same screen. The best half tones are done with the highest mesh counts but the higher the mesh count the lower the ink deposit. So many times especially with the high end prints one color may be printed on more than,one screen, one with a lower TPI for opacity and one with a higher TPI for half toning.

These are things you obviously are not aware of but could be if you just relaxed and asked for this information to help make your program more viable. 

[AdvancedArtist]

Please guys calm down Han is sincere and working very hard to make this a reality. Help him do not bash him. He is potentially my competitor I do not care about that I want what is best for the Industry not what is best for you or me. So chill and help analyze and give feed back like gentlemen..

[DDSol]

Listen Inkman, I'm quite sure I'm off with some values. I put in ink opacity at 90%. I don't even know if that's right. It could be 12%, hell, I don't know. But rest assured it will take me no more than 2 minutes to fix that once the measurements are in.

And if EOM is important, there's gonna either be a checkbox to change it or a slider to adjust it OR I'll say "you have to use this or that".

How hard is it. Most seppers have specs Today. They say "tension this, mesh count that". They don't ask what you want. They just tell you how to do it. And I think most screen printers like that a lot better than having to be faced with a slider that says "EOM?" And they're like "EOM? WTF is EOM?". And then I have to do an EOM video that no one wants to waste time to watch.

And I'm quite sure you can sep this image to 5 colors. May not look as smooth as using 12 colors. But then again, I'm sure it'll look fine, PLUS you can use 12 colors if you should so desire. I can make a checkbox that says "High end print" and then it'll give you 12. I don't care. I can do that. That's not a problem. That said, I think 5 colors is plenty. And I don't care if person X with 450 years experience says it's not true. Had you asked experts of the 1500's about the shape of the earth, they'd all have told you "flat". Experts aren't right just because they say so. Hell, if I were to believe that nonsense, why even try. "It can't be done" is what the experts say. I say "You're wrong". And that's that.

And I don't see how you think I think you're dumb. You're not dumb. You just don't know what I know. There's nothign wrong with that. But if I can make a nice clean gray with just white on a black shirt, then it is also possible to make a nice clean purple with red and blue (but not a magenta!). And so 5 colors is enough.

I already solved the "my dots wash out at small sizes" issue. That means you can use a lower TPI. More ink. More opacity. Yum! Sexy prints. 5 colors.

If it can't be done, then why are you telling me? I'll just go down this DEAD END road and slam into the wall that awaits me. Let me die my own death please. Just another crazy person engaging in self destructive behavior. Don't worry about it. Your job's safe.

[inkman996]

No one is telling you it can't be done exactly. What people are trying to tell you and you resist is that no,way is a sep program going to be perfect. Your proving it your self every time you say that image can be five colors. It's like you,trying to tell a heart surgeon even tho you are not a surgeon or even seen surgery in person you can tell this heart surgeon what is wrong and what it right all because you say so.

Lower thread count yippee all that means is bigger dots, bigger dots suck unless intentional. Printers today print with super high mesh counts for a reason smaller dots!

Imam curious what frequency are the dots your program is creating?

[DDSol]

Dot size depends on what thread count you want. Right now it's a "virtual 50 lpi" and a "virtual 12 inch on the long side of your art". Fixed.

So, yeah, as I said, I have fixed the "my dots wash out because they're too small".

So this means you can use a lower thread count at the same dot size. The secret is XM. You know XM, right? I sure as hell hope you know what it is...

[inkman996]

Why do you need to be so damn rude and condescending? Yes I know what XM is.

That's nice lpi works great on higher mesh counts but not always ideal for open areas that need good ink coverage for opacity.


And seriously if you can't be respectful when talking to people you can go pound sand for all I care. And Tom you have the gall to say people are bashing him. The dude is turning into a world class jerk.

[AdvancedArtist]

Why do you need to be so damn rude and condescending? Yes I know what XM is.

That's nice lpi works great on higher mesh counts but not always ideal for open areas that need good ink coverage for opacity.


And seriously if you can't be respectful when talking to people you can go pound sand for all I care. And Tom you have the gall to say people are bashing him. The dude is turning into a world class jerk.

Why are you so scientifically offensive..? Like me and you on phone with R and W and B you remember that? And you had that buzz on and so did I. But get your math in place before you start running your you know what.

[inkman996]

You can go,pound sand as well.

No one is startingything here except you and your buddy. You both are spinning things and assuming things and completely,ignoring the fact that everyone is praising both you fellows work. But nope you both cannot take one ounce of criticism or handle the fact not everyone will bow down to either of you.

Get my math in place? For what? I am not programming anything nor even saying either,of your projects are bad never have. So why do you say that? Are you trying to belittle me with no merit?

Whycantyour buddy have a civil conversation without resorting to belittling and disrespecting? It is like you have an identical brother wow!

 I try to give the Malone single real world aspect to our printing process and his answer is more belittling. Do what's the point? I thought he wanted reviews and advice?

[AdvancedArtist]

In science and math InkSatan assumptions do on exist. Your pounding sand not me.

[AdvancedArtist]

Pretty much what Pierre said. I will go out on a limb and say there will never be a sep "program"/auto punch that can match hand pulled seps unless the original art is designed around the EXACT colors the program is pulling. I'm attaching a design that our artist just finished up a few weeks back, this is a great example of artwork that this sep program(or any for that matter) cannot accurately pull the PMS colors we are needing to print. The sep program might pull a cyan blue when in fact we need it to pull a pms 320 teal color. The sep program tries to make the pms 320 with a cyan, white, and green color all mixing halftones together when the overall print would look MUCH better printing a straight pms 320 color, not 3-4 colors blending together. The bottom line is unless the auto seps programs can pull the exact colors we are wanting to print on press, then it's still the same ole auto sep program imo and really isn't better then much else. If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want PMS 109, PMS 320, PMS 7502, PMS 216, etc then the program would pull seps based on the colors we tell it, then it would be special. Until that happens.....all I can say is meh....


I would be 100% game to have ddsol or tom do a sep like they are talking about on the attached artwork using their method.... Then we will have our house artist do a set of manual seps and compare the difference. I just don't see the programs pulling the exact colors that we need to print. In theory you should be able to print the main colors of the color wheel to achieve all other colors but on press and in real life shops, that is impossible to achieve..... When dealing with difference opacity inks, different shirt colors, the way colors blend on press, etc the real world doesn't lend itself to auto seps, but again this is just my opinion. All the math in the world will not solve the problems we run into on press, bottom line.

Thanks for the challenge how many colors do you want to print it in? 6, 10? 12? I can break it down slice it dice it you tell me.

[Dottonedan]

He's surly not Tom or realted.  LOL.  Tom would have pulled out a machete 10 post back. LOL. That was a joke Tom. Don't kill me.


Seriously tho.  In DDsol's defense.  Danny's job "technically" CAN be printed in 5 colors. This, (for this reason alone) is why many people already purchase sep programs as it knocked a multi color job down to whatever you put in for it to do. We all know that many of these programs don't do a design justice on all jobs. The whole point I think DDsol is saying is, (IF) you wanted to only run a design that someone gives you...on your 6 color press with a flash in one head, you could. It won't look as good as Danny's 12 color job but you could. All of the sep programs do that now.  DDsol's stance is that it does this BETTER than all of those others. So, for that, we all hope for, I'm sure.


But even DDsol knows, We've heard that all before. So there in lies your (ours) sceptisisim. He's right tho. Lets not burn him at the cross before we see it.  Not that I've really seen anyone getting way outta hand yet. I've read some sarcasm from both sides here so far.  Pretty even. I may even be guilty of it eventually. I'm no saint, but don't haste me over it.   I see DDsol as more of a light hearted passionate brainiac and some brainiacs can have issues like turrets er something.  I did for a long time when I was a young lad...er younger than I am now. but I've lacked the brainiac part. I sense a smart fun lov'n guy in him.


Lets face it, Skepticism alone can hurt ones feelings a tad. Thats for all of us. We me and you, all just need to realize that it's gonna happen (a little) so therefore, don't be surprised and realize that you're gonna have to just let it roll off your back and see what happens when it's all said and done. But PLEASE do, continue with the feedback. It does look like he's looking for that. He's just proud of himself as he should be if it even slightly resembles what he describes it's gonna do.


I do seps for a living, well, half my living. I take 8,10,12 color jobs and sep them down to work on many peoples 6 or 8 color press. Happens every day. So that part of the discussion is similar to Ex Pres Bill Clinton's reasoning. It depends on what your definition of (IS) is, or rather, it depends on your definition of what a good looking 5 color print (is).  Danny's job is (intended) to make use of that many colors (as it is more visually accurate)...due to the fact that most of the dots and blending are a none issue. This make sit easier and more efficient for large orders to run in production. This is in line with what I was saying earlier in this thread that would be good for you to look into if it does not already do so. That conversation I had about creating into the program to kick out (during the process of a 6,8 or 10 color sep option, to be able to input info to have it do more of a solid area (sep) of pms 158 or whatever pms I said.

How hard is it. Most seppers have specs Today. They say "tension this, mesh count that". They don't ask what you want. They just tell you how to do it.

  Yes and no. It's about a 70/30.  Most want me to tell them. Another portion prefers to tell me what they want to use (out of necessity). Maybe they don't have 305's on hand and maybe they can't hold the small dots on a 65 lpi. So, they tell me to use 230 mesh and 55 lpi. Thats all good dialogue that I need.

And I think most screen printers like that a lot better than having to be faced with a slider that says "EOM?" And they're like "EOM? WTF is EOM?". And then I have to do an EOM video that no one wants to waste time to watch.

  LOL.  Now, you all know THATS TRUE for a decent amount of printers. LOL.  Not many of this bunch, but yea. It can be like that. We all know it. everyones starting at some time and many will say that same thing until they get some ink under their skin.


We are jumping ahead of ourselves tho and technically, he's right. a lot of our feelings about this is based on what we have experienced in the past. Lets hope he's really onto something.
He IS very confident. So lets give him the benefit of the doubt. We will eventually see the results on press of someone.


In reality, as it stands now, it all sounds very cool and should be another great benefit (at the very least). From you're very own computer, dropping a file onto you're web browser and seeing the results on screen, making adjustment corrections or alterations (based on your own shops parameters) and receiving films back in the mail in 2 days....or, being able to then print seps to your printer in minutes?  C'mon ? who's not going to like that? The large majority of shops already purchase and use these other programs and may shops have 2-4 of them.  Even IF it's ONLY as good as SimpleSeps, UltraSeps, EasyArt, FastFilms ScreenPrintSeparator, etc. it's going to be a quick sell (for that convenience factor alone).  Convenience is very sellable as long as it's priced right.


Is DDsol off or not fully aware of some of the more technical variables?  Some of it, but then again, so are some of us printers. (this alone), is where it might make some of us think, hmmm.  He doesn't know 100% about screen printing variables, so maybe his sep program is not ALL that he says either. THAT comes from much of the for sure and definitive answers given by DDsol. But I'm sure he's just very confident. But like he himself said, just because an expert tells you something , doesn't mean it's true. So in the same vein, you are looked at as the expert here in your program...and we have seen one or two important some tell tale signs that you may not be 100% up on some of the screen print details...indicating that you may just be that expert that doesn't really know fully.  There's nothing wrong with that in and of it'self. It's just that you ARE very positive that you've got all of THE important things that make a great sep. Thats all that people are thinking. I'm sure you can see that side of it.


I don't know everything there is about separations, but I'm good at it. I've taken DDsol for what he's saying, and that it's still a TEST and that he's looking for solid suggestions. FOR THAT much, I respect and appreciate that he is looking for our input. As we all know, it's not "what you say", but "how" you say it. So, a few here are thus far a little guilty of pushing buttons a tad. On both sides. THAT alone, is not making this a bad thread. It's GREAT so far. BUt you know how some things can go...if we don't pay attention to "how" we say things. I'm the worse some times at that. Guilty as charged sir.  I need people to remind me and keep me in check. So that why all the long post.


I will say tho, DDSol,  Don't discount the P.  Pierre first of all, is our beloved "Nice guy".  So, even IF, he's not on you're level, Please respect the P. He's got shirtboard cred (as do many of us here), but he can hang for a much longer conversation than most of us (when speaking you're language) and he's ALSO, an extremely accomplished printer as well as many of  our members here. HERE, is where you will find THE most amount of meaty educational feedback on what your program IS and IS NOT doing or has not done yet (as it pertains to putting put seps for shirts and ease of use or functionality). In addition, The P is a much loved and respected personality on here for his well balanced input. Far more than I prefer "occasionally".         He's educated in 3 out of 3 areas that you are interested in. So, for that at least, never dis the P. 

[AdvancedArtist]

He's surly not Tom or realted.  LOL.  Tom would have pulled out a machete 10 post back. LOL. That was a joke Tom. Don't kill me.

ROFLOL

[Dottonedan]

Pretty much what Pierre said. I will go out on a limb and say there will never be a sep "program"/auto punch that can match hand pulled seps unless the original art is designed around the EXACT colors the program is pulling. I'm attaching a design that our artist just finished up a few weeks back, this is a great example of artwork that this sep program(or any for that matter) cannot accurately pull the PMS colors we are needing to print. The sep program might pull a cyan blue when in fact we need it to pull a pms 320 teal color. The sep program tries to make the pms 320 with a cyan, white, and green color all mixing halftones together when the overall print would look MUCH better printing a straight pms 320 color, not 3-4 colors blending together. The bottom line is unless the auto seps programs can pull the exact colors we are wanting to print on press, then it's still the same ole auto sep program imo and really isn't better then much else. If the program worked in the manner that we could actually tell it we want PMS 109, PMS 320, PMS 7502, PMS 216, etc then the program would pull seps based on the colors we tell it, then it would be special. Until that happens.....all I can say is meh....


I would be 100% game to have ddsol or tom do a sep like they are talking about on the attached artwork using their method.... Then we will have our house artist do a set of manual seps and compare the difference. I just don't see the programs pulling the exact colors that we need to print. In theory you should be able to print the main colors of the color wheel to achieve all other colors but on press and in real life shops, that is impossible to achieve..... When dealing with difference opacity inks, different shirt colors, the way colors blend on press, etc the real world doesn't lend itself to auto seps, but again this is just my opinion. All the math in the world will not solve the problems we run into on press, bottom line.

Thanks for the challenge how many colors do you want to print it in? 6, 10? 12? I can break it down slice it dice it you tell me.

That would be good to see. But I'd suggest a fair compassion in a real world experience. These sep programs are marketed as if it will be the answer to all sep issues for everyone.  So, let Joe average (any sep programs biggest target audience who would be buying these right off the bat and is for all sep programs, a key target audience) be the ones to use them on (one specific design that is the same # of colors and let them be the ones to print a submission.  This printer should be a Joe average (non award winning and non pro separator) as the key target audience would imply. It would be best for both of the sep program submissions come from that same printer...so we get a consistent comparrison of both sep programs.


from DDsols sep program...and let that Joe average guy be the one to do the tweaking (if needed)...


From Tom, then also let that same Joe average (who remains anonymous to you, DDsol and Danny's sep guy).  This person is doing the submissions...and all of the tweaking themselves....and then let Danny's sep guy sep that same job...and let HIM do HIS tweaking. (That IS who you have been targeting) for challenges so you shouldn't mind that. referring to those Pro Separators that will be obsolete in a year or less.


THAT is a real world comparison as you have indicated yourself, (correct me if I'm wrong), that this is THE way to do it...and the other way is the wrong way and all who buy into your process will be able to do award winning prints. (I think thats what I read a few times).  I could be mistaken.


NONE of you get to see the results of each others and they all go directly to some 3rd party judge that can be trusted and has no stake in the matter for any party. Probably a Mark Coudrey. One who is clearly capable of knowing what he's looking for. Finding that judge would be someone you all would agree on.


That seems fair.  Just a suggestion. Not for me tho. As they say on Shark Tank. I'm out.

This is not a dig at you. It's probably the most easiest opening for you to finally get a public audience to really see the results. Could be you're biggest opportunity to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that HBS or SimpleSepsRater is THE way to go.  Think of it, what better advertisement?


It's fruitless to have you, DDSol or Steve do it since  you're all three an expert at your program. You need you're KEY target audience to do it...and compare that result to Danny's Sep guy (or any other willing Pro sep guy.


Again, it's not to put you or your product down. I have much respect for your products. It's a rare opportunity for all interested.