Is discharge printing cheaper than plastisol

[tonypep]

Yes and no really. Before we discuss the particulars I advise most printers  to shop around. Discharge products are widely varied in price. Some import the products while others manufacture domestically. Just remeber performance over price. So, that said lets review:
 Those who use discharge base as an underlay probably are saving money. You only need to beef up the one screen and if you compare ink costs well; it's a no-brainer. As with all discharge inks just watch that you don't activate an excess amount of ink. It helps to have an ink cart or station right next to the screen with a water bottle, wipes, mixing materials, base and activator. This way you can react quickly and accurately.
Whites pretty much same applies. Multicolr pigmented? This is more challenging. The pigments vary in cost as do plastisols. The pricey ones are generally stronger. (Note the 6 to 8 percent guidelines are not always accurate; sometimes less is more). With formulas you're on your own. The formulas provided by manufacturers are helpful but less than accurate. And different dyes and fabrics will often yield different colors.
It takes me approximately 50% longer to prep the screens so an eight color can chew up some pre-press time. And theres the waste issue.
Multicolor short run? Discharge could actually cost more. Long runs over 500 pcs? If you do things right you're probably saving some dough.
Just some random thoughts for the morning.
Oh and BTW back in my Precision days we used to make drums of waterbase (not discharge) for $3.00 per gallon!

[mk162]

very neat to know.  I am going to investigate discharge again here soon.  I liked it, but not the smell.

if I am going to do any quantities, I would need to get another module for my dryer.

[ebscreen]

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

White on black (or any other dischargeable color) no brainer. CCI white
is about half of Quick, plus no flash or second screen.

My dryer limits us to about 600/hr for discharge unless the image is really
large, so there is that to contend with.

However, if we take performance vs. cost into account as mentioned, our
clients are much more pleased with discharge than plastisol, so the price
is almost negligible. Except for Rutland Violet pigment. $300+ a gallon?
Don't spill....


 

[tonypep]

Never occured to me about the dryer inhibiting press speed I have some pretty big puppies here so its not an issue. For vector art low mesh we run at zero dwell single hit. For sim process on highe mesh double hit zero dwell.
But yes that should figure in to the cost of production if its an issue.
Also Erin if you're reading this please please please metnion to the boys and girls in Kennesaw you reall need to look into selling the pigments in dispensible containers like industrial grade mustard dispensers. it's a  messy PTA to have to funnel them into bottles yourself but if you don't it's difficult to keep them sealed. Some pigments will dry up and become useless when exposed to even a little air. Sounds petty but some pigments are very pricey! Also maybe a small starter pc kit in pints might make it easier on the wallets for those who don't want to overcommit straight out of the gate.

[ebscreen]

Second the squeeze bottles.

Tony, do you strain your inks before going to press?
I freaking hate doing it, but some pigments make it necessary.

[squeegee]

We strain ink a lot.  It's been on my to do list to find a good metal collander I can fit on a gallon bucket, then line with scraps of fine screen mesh each time to make the job easier.  I hate doing it but it works wonders on heavily used colors.

[Prosperi-Tees]

Never occured to me about the dryer inhibiting press speed I have some pretty big puppies here so its not an issue. For vector art low mesh we run at zero dwell single hit. For sim process on highe mesh double hit zero dwell.
But yes that should figure in to the cost of production if its an issue.
Also Erin if you're reading this please please please metnion to the boys and girls in Kennesaw you reall need to look into selling the pigments in dispensible containers like industrial grade mustard dispensers. it's a  messy PTA to have to funnel them into bottles yourself but if you don't it's difficult to keep them sealed. Some pigments will dry up and become useless when exposed to even a little air. Sounds petty but some pigments are very pricey! Also maybe a small starter pc kit in pints might make it easier on the wallets for those who don't want to overcommit straight out of the gate.

Jantex has a nice little pc trial kit for 99 bucks. I bought and used the discharge and it works well although I have nothing to compare it to besides Unions Plasticharge which I did not care for to much. Here is a link http://inksandbeyond.com/products/222-jms-starter-kit.aspx

[tonypep]

Second the squeeze bottles.

Tony, do you strain your inks before going to press?
I freaking hate doing it, but some pigments make it necessary.

No I do not strain but I have ruined more PC than I care to admit. Now I am misting water over the PC before sealing the containers. Squeeze bottles will fix this also. The piece featured in "What have you printed lately" uses CCI base and Oasis pigments. That CCI base is the best I have ever used. It pretty much refuses to cause ink drying problems. 305 mesh...we had to wait 45 minutes for approval. Soon as we got it we just fired up the press.

[dsh]

Can you print 4 color process over discharge?

[tonypep]

I assume you mean 4CP plastisol. It's not impossible but expect mixed results at least at first. Seps are critical. I have a true 4CP photographic discharge print (not plastisol) photo somewhere I'll try to dig it up and post later. Sim process, like the New Balance Road Race shirt is a far better technique IMO. If you look at the shirt your eye sees purples, greens, and orange. But those screens/inks do not exist. They are blends of discharge yellow/magenta/cyan with a spot red. You cannot see the dots even under a magnifying loupe.
In either case the water base dots blend seamlessly.

[ErinAllenLamb]

Never occured to me about the dryer inhibiting press speed I have some pretty big puppies here so its not an issue. For vector art low mesh we run at zero dwell single hit. For sim process on highe mesh double hit zero dwell.
But yes that should figure in to the cost of production if its an issue.
Also Erin if you're reading this please please please metnion to the boys and girls in Kennesaw you reall need to look into selling the pigments in dispensible containers like industrial grade mustard dispensers. it's a  messy PTA to have to funnel them into bottles yourself but if you don't it's difficult to keep them sealed. Some pigments will dry up and become useless when exposed to even a little air. Sounds petty but some pigments are very pricey! Also maybe a small starter pc kit in pints might make it easier on the wallets for those who don't want to overcommit straight out of the gate.

HI Tony! It looks like I found it!! The industrial grade mustard dispensers have been discussed as well as starter kits, but at this point they have just been discussed.   I believe the current manufacturing/packing method makes it hard to package this way.  I will pass along your request.  It is a great idea and I hope one day we can provide a package that makes mixing a bit easier.

[3Deep]

I just bought a gal of plasticharge from union ink I think the stuff I,m getting you can mix it with any color you like to make a discharge ink.  Question can you use any mfg's ZFS agent to mix with your plasticharge ink? I got a job coming up with black shirts and the ink colors are white and grey ink, I know i,ve got to get a different emulsion for this stuff.  If any of you are using plasticharge can I get some pointers.

Darryl

[alan802]

I've been wanting to mess around with the plastcharge product as well, I did with white ink and used it as an underbase and it was nice, but not with any spot colors on darks yet.

[Frog]

I just bought a gal of plasticharge from union ink I think the stuff I,m getting you can mix it with any color you like to make a discharge ink.  Question can you use any mfg's ZFS agent to mix with your plasticharge ink? I got a job coming up with black shirts and the ink colors are white and grey ink, I know i,ve got to get a different emulsion for this stuff.  If any of you are using plasticharge can I get some pointers.

Darryl

I have used the product from  Wilflex, Oasis NF Plascharge. For the runs I did, it was fine, but what I learned was colors get very very much lighter, and even with pastel results expected, mixing to match an established color will take real work (and luck).

I used the Murakami Aquasol HV SBG emulsion, and with my smallish run of 72, did not need any additional hardening other than a post development secondary exposure.
Two methods for real industrial level hardening are common; adding Diazo, or a post exposure and development application of a wipe-on hardener.

[3Deep]

My thoughts are if I can get a good discharge white I could really print faster and save that flash time, just about 75 percent of our prints need an underbase, plus I,m thinking the discharge as an underbase would give me a softer hand.