Mesh counts....

[Printhouse]

OK.....  I would like to learn from you pros out there.  I know many of you are in the Automatic world these days but I am sure that you can assist here.  I have been in business since June of last year.  When I first started and I was picking out my frames I ended up going with Aluminum static frames in two mesh counts.  I bought 155 mesh and 110 mesh.  I typically run all my standard inks through the 155's and my whites and slightly thicker colored inks through the 110's.  Over the past year I have purchased approx 50 of each.  I am looking to make another large purchase of screens just due to the volume that I am printing these days and the number of repeat orders which I have been saving on racks.  In talking to some people, including my screen suppliers, it seems that the average printer is pushing typical inks through 110 mesh and pushing whites through as low as 80's.  I was going to order a six pack today with some different mesh that I am not currently using.  I was thinking about some 81's, 125's, 140's, 173's, 200's and 230's.  I thought this way I could experiment with what works best for me.   I thought I would pick the brains of everyone here.  I have been buying 23 X 31's lately in an anticipation of a possible move to an auto at sometime.

[Denis Kolar]

As far as I have seen on the forums, there is no need to have too many mesh counts.
Most of the people commented on the same question that I asked before that they mostly use 110, 155 and 230.

And then again, this comes from complete newbie.
One thing I know, I could not find better pricing than from www.techsupportsps.com from Pittsburgh. They were at ISS yesterday, I have to stop by at their booth tomorrow. One day shipping to Ohio.

[alan802]

Well, the trend these days is to go pretty much high mesh for most of the work on an auto.  Lot's of shops are underbasing with 195's and 230's and putting top colors and spot colors on lights on 230's and 305's.  I however like to use lower mesh counts simply because there is no real way to completely clear an opaque ink through a 230 or 305 while keeping the pressure low enough for the ink to sit on top of the shirt.  And underbasing through a 230 often requires 2 strokes or even a pfpf of your underbase before you put your top colors on.  I think one stroke through a 137 would be better than 2 strokes through a 230 and probably would deposit less ink as well.  And it will allow you to keep the ink on top of the shirt instead of in it.  But, I'm in the minority with my theory of printing.  I guess my priorities are to get the ink deposit on top of the shirt, then it's to accomplish that task with one stroke.  I don't like to double stroke anything, and I don't like to pfpf our underbases and we don't hardly ever have to do that.  I have been using higher meshes for top colors on top of underbases with good results.  You have to use more pressure but it's not an issue since your printing on plastic and not thread.

I've experimented lately with higher mesh counts for underbasing and it hasn't really turned out well, especially with white designs on darks.  I did however have great results in a halftone underbase through a 156 the other day, but the shirts were a medium color and not black or navy.

One piece of advice is I would suggest getting your new screens with a high quality mesh in them, like murakami smartmesh with the S threads, or something equivalent.  I love printing with the s thread mesh, you can drop your print pressure by 30-50% with most mesh counts, and maybe even more.  The only drawback to meshing static alums with that high dollar mesh  is that it might not be the best way to spend your money, but I'm sure the benefits would be worth it, in my opinion.

[Printhouse]

Great input so far.  I have been purchasing all of my screens through www.Rhinotoughgraphics.com  They are also at the ISS show.  You can buy a six pack of 110's there for $80.  I usually get my 155's for $16-$18.  They run monthly specials and shipping is usually about $6 or so. They also have great aluminum squeegees that they will have there tomorrow for $6 for six inch and $14 for 14 inch.  I brought home a bunch of them.  I have a tech support account but have never really ordered from them.  I bought out a shop in bedford and got about 25 gallons of tech support ink.  I am going to crack open some tech white this week in fact.  

[Donnie]

It really depends on what kind of stuff you are printing. I started out with the same meshes BUT as I became more proficient at the process and started doing simulated process the mesh counts rose. I underbase all most all simulated process with 230s and 305's for the top colors. Most of my meshes now are in the higher range but I am running an auto. I probably would not be doing this if I had to manually push white ink though 230 and 305 meshes on a daily basis.

[Frog]

I am strictly manual, but have also joined the trend to (slightly)higher tensions and higher meshes.
I still will use 110's but only on a fleece only job. Otherwise, whites are more printable than they used to be, and if I am going to P-F-P, I'll use 160's.

Darker solid inks are now going on 180-200, and hallftoned jobs 200-260.

I am now using some panel frames and will not be replacing any static frames that are either losing tension or actual glue breakdown with static frames.

[Printhouse]

Which panel frames are you using?  I do have some Newman MZX's in my arsenal as well. 

[Frog]

http://www.panelframe.com/

[squeezee]

You also need your mask count to be 4-5x your halftone.  If the halftone dots don't stick to two threads they tend to fall off.

[Clark]

I have 25, 48, 110, 125, 137, 160, 180, 225, 255, 305, and 355.    They all have their strengths and weaknesses.  But for day-to-day spot color printing on darks with an underbase, you can get by with 160's and 230.  Those are the two that get used the most in my shop.  We tinker with mesh counts alot since we don't have the ability to revolve the press, and I hate using both flashes for a number of reasons.   Very rarely do we flash twice, and when we do it's basically a crutch because we didn't choose the correct mesh to begin with.

For printing on lights, I prefer a 180 mesh, MX inks, with 6% fashion soft base added.

[yorkie]

What is important is to have the mesh "work for you", rather than "the mesh working you".

Manual presses have physical limits which are different from an automatic. What is most important is repeatability. In spite of the fact that a 305 could be "better", getting the job done would be most expedient with a 110. Screen printing isn't about perfection, but making several hundred people to thousands of people "happy" with what was delivered. 

"mesh" is defined, by a whole lot of other variables, no the least of which is the color of the shirt and the color of the ink.

The "zen" of screen printing is to use the absolute lowest mesh screen possible. Of course it could equally be argued that the absolute highest mesh possible would bring zen perfection. But the sidartha would say, choose the middle way! Whatever is the most perfect center between the highest mesh and the lowest mesh is the perfect mesh.

ummmmmmm

[shellyky]

Manually printing, i did mostly 137's on whites seeing as that was a high as i could physically push ink thru and get consistent prints. (im just a small woman though lol)  i liked 158's for colors on whites.  Occasional 125 or 110....196's for fine work. 305 for  4cp...i woudl try to get away from 110's, i found we had a huge heap of them and i wasnt even using them anymore...felt like a bad investment. 

[Shanarchy]

I printed manually for a while and am just transitioning into my automatic.

First, I would say invest in Newmans. Or at least Panel Frames.

Second, I printed predominately with all 110's and 160's.

110's for white and any other p-f-p on darks with opaque inks. I use mostly QCM xolb inks
160's for pretty much everything else.

I uses triple duro squeegees (70/90/70)

I hear a lot of printers like higher mesh counts but these worked for me and I was very happy with the results. So I did not fix what was not broken.

I think you will get a lot of different answers from different printers. My advice would be to print a job that you usually use a 110 for with a 160. Then print a job that you would use a 160 for with a 230. Then decide which works better for you. Otherwise you may invest in something that you do not want.

Either way I would invest in retensionable frames. I feel they make a huge difference.

Also,  www.techsupportsps.com is a GREAT distributor. Both Alan and Bill are super helpful and well knowledged.

[FSUp Clothing]

Thanks for the panel frame link! Never saw those before today. What tensions can you expect from those? Is it adjustable? Where's a good place to buy them from?

[Frog]

They list distributors on the site.

No, they are not adjustable, at least not with the correct new improved Sefar panels. Some of the originals were inconsistent, but many made the ones that were too big work, by giving two or four of the edges an extra roll-over into the mounting groove.

The newer Sefar panels are made to just barely stretch on, in fact, it's a little nerve wracking for the uninitiated, but I have not popped one yet.

I hear numbers, but have no actual personal experience, not owning a Newon meter. I can tell you that a penny dropped from three feet onto a 180 bounced about 9.5 inches!
I just know that they are tighter than the average static, and easily re-stretched, but certainly not as tight as the sometimes unnecessarily high figures I hear from some roller frame users. There is a point of diminishing returns.

The other interesting quality which can be exploited by some, is that single color screens that one may want to keep to use frequently still doesn't need to tie up a frame. The stenciled panel can be removed, stored, and re-mounted.